NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

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Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

Process Plan - https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...erms-of-Reference-and-Process-Plan-FINAL-.pdf

AFL Ends Investigation - 'Imperfect resolution' as Hawks probe ends, no one charged

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South of the Yarra said:
Actually, when I said it was going to the Human Rights Commission in late 2022, your own responses to my post and those responding to my posts would strongly suggest you had no idea it was going to the Human Rights Commission.
Click to expand...

I just had a quick look and I mentioned taking it to court or the HRC on Nov 4 2022. A couple of weeks after the story broke and before the AFL set up its joke of a panel.

It was never something the AFL was going to control no matter how much thry wished it was. The claims were too egregious.

Its also why I said from the beginning the HRC mediation would fail. You cannot have claims like we have seen and expect some common ground could be found.

Even after this court case, should it proceed, we will likely see a number of other court cases where defamation lawyers have their fun. This really has been a good year for them.
 
Last edited:
Chief said:
So how does this equate to a "great result for Fagan and Clarkson"? Why didn't their big expensive lawyers crush it in mediation?
Click to expand...
Yeh i would have thought that this going to court is not a good result. Really for anyone TBH.

Whether you think there is any substance to the claims being made or not the players im sure dont particularly wanna relive this again and again and Clarko and Fagan probably dont either.

I understand why its here but i doubt thats what anyone wanted.
 
HairyO said:
I just had a quick look and I mentioned taking it to court or the HRC on Nov 4 2022. A couple of weeks after the story broke and before the AFL set up its joke of a panel.

It was never something the AFL was going to control no matter how much thry wished it was. The claims were too egregious.

Its also why I said from the beginning the HRC mediation would fail. You cannot have claims like we have seen and expect some common ground could be found.

Even after this court case, should it proceed, we will likely see a number of other court cases where defamation lawyers have their fun. This really has been a good year for them.
Click to expand...
Defamation cases haven't exactly been going that well in Australia recently
 

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HairyO said:
Anecdotally too. I know a few people who have gone through mediation and none succeeded in coming to an agreement.
Click to expand...
So mediation has reached an outcome zero times?
 
Chief said:
HairyO said:
Has anyone said that?

HairyO said:
mediation fails literally all the time
Click to expand...

I get where you're coming from, but language isn't set in stone - it evolves over time. "Literally" used to strictly mean "in a literal manner," but people have started using it for emphasis, even when they're exaggerating. It's kind of like a modern twist on the word. So when HairyO says "mediation literally fails all the time," he doesn't mean it has never worked, ever. It's just a way of saying it rarely works, at least in his experience.

It's similar to saying, "I'm literally starving" when you’re just really hungry. It’s an example of hyperbole, a figure of speech where you exaggerate for effect. Language is flexible and constantly changing, and sometimes words take on new meanings or additional uses. So "literally" can mean "figuratively" now — it's just how many people talk these days.
 
Hawthorn racism investigation: The secret reports and what really happened
Exactly one year ago, on May 30, 2023, the AFL’s Hawthorn racism investigation was shut down. Today, MICHAEL WARNER reveals what really happened with Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt.


The AFL has ended its investigation into the historic allegations of racism at the Hawthorn Football Club with no adverse findings made against Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan, or Jason Burt. The sporting body concluded legal action can no longer be taken against the AFL. The six complainants could still take legal action against Clarkson, Fagan and Burt despite the resolution showing no adverse findings against them.

Two secret reports commissioned by the AFL into the Hawthorn racism scandal found “a startling lack of evidence” in the cases alleged against Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt.

The separate reports, authored by a retired Federal Court judge and a top Melbourne law firm, concluded that the gravest allegation – that an Indigenous player and his partner were pressured to terminate a pregnancy – could not be substantiated.

A claim that the Hawks had demanded the separation of another First Nations family for the sake of the player’s career was also considered to be “lacking in evidence”.
The two reports – one by Justice John Middleton and the other by Gordon Legal – found that there was “no basis whatsoever” to support suggestions a subculture of racism had existed at Hawthorn during the club’s golden premiership era of 2008-15 or that the three accused club officials had behaved in anything other than a “caring” way for their players.

The AFL Commission relied upon the reports to terminate the four-person independent investigation panel led by Bernard Quinn KC, which had failed to make any findings eight months after being established following the leaking of the Hawthorn “cultural safety review” in grand final week 2022.
Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan during their time at Hawthorn.

The Hawks remain under pressure to make compensation payments to the First Nations families and the coaches following mediation in the Australian Human Rights Commission.
But the Herald Sun can reveal Justice Middleton and Gordon Legal, led by former Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon, presented their findings to the AFL last May after being granted access to all of the evidence gathered by the Quinn panel.
The Gordon Legal report called for an immediate end to the AFL probe and asserted that there was “no sufficient evidence” to substantiate the vast majority of the claims made against the former Hawks trio.
Justice Middleton concurred with Gordon Legal’s assessment of the case and reiterated that the league should abandon the panel and had legal grounds to do so.

In the original ABC story that sparked the scandal, a former Hawks player called “Ian” alleged a group of coaches, including Clarkson and Fagan, ushered him into an office where he was urged to have his partner’s pregnancy aborted.

“Clarkson just leaned over me and demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child and my partner,” Ian said.
“I was then manipulated and convinced to remove my SIM card from my phone, so there was no further contact between my family and me.
“He told me to kill my unborn kid.”
Clarkson has always vehemently denied the allegations made against him.

The AFL commissioned the secret reports after the Quinn-led panel had become bogged down in acrimonious legal debate.
It can be revealed the racism investigation turned on its head on the eve of Christmas 2022 when lawyers for the accused parties received detailed statements from the First Nations complainants – the first time the claims could be cross-checked against the contents of the Hawthorn review authored by Indigenous consultant Phil Egan.

Many of the lawyers who received the statements were shocked by the lack of detail and the inconsistencies surrounding the most serious allegations.
“There were major gaps in the material,” one figure said.
When the probe recommenced in January last year, lawyers for Clarkson, Fagan and Burt demanded access to internal Hawthorn records they believed would help clear the trio of wrongdoing, but high-profile lawyer Leon Zwier, who continues to act for four of the Indigenous families, argued that their release would be a breach of his clients’ privacy.
“Zwier seemed to believe he should be the only lawyer who got to see them,” a source close to the saga said.
“Procedural fairness appeared to be a one-way street.”

Threats of legal action mounted against the AFL, which was ultimately responsible for the panel, despite the league’s own frustrations at the slow pace of the investigation process.
Genuine concerns over the decline of Clarkson’s mental health also became a factor.
Among the mountains of material at the centre of the probe was an interview the AFL panel conducted with retired Hawthorn Indigenous great Shaun Burgoyne, which was described as “a powerful endorsement of his old coach and club in the period under question”.
Clarkson and Fagan before their new clubs faced off last year.

Tensions reached breaking point when Zwier failed to show up at a secret meeting between all parties at Marvel Stadium on May 15 last year – the same week Clarkson took a leave of absence from the game and launched a scathing attack on the investigations process.
Fagan’s lawyers had flown from Brisbane for the Marvel meeting, adding fuel to a raging fire.
“We were told all day he was about to arrive, but we all left after 6pm,” one attendee said.
“It’s hard to believe it wasn’t deliberate. No explanation was ever given.

“The next thing we heard was that Zwier wanted a mediation in Adelaide where he would be the only lawyer present.”
None of the other parties understood why Adelaide had been suggested as a venue for mediation, a city with no connection to any of the affected parties or events, and the proposal was rejected.

The racism crisis came to a head on May 28 last year when major law firm Clayton Utz, representing Fagan, threatened a Supreme Court injunction against the AFL process.
The league remained concerned about “blowback” in shutting down the inquiry, but were advised that the public and the media had shifted and become more sympathetic to the plight of Clarkson and Fagan.

At a snap Tuesday night press conference on May 30, AFL boss Gillon McLachlan announced the panel’s probe had been wound up and that the league had struck a deal with lawyers for the Indigenous players in which “no adverse findings have been made against any of the individuals against whom allegations have been made”.
No mention of the existence of the Middleton or Gordon Legal reports was made by the AFL at the time.

Egan was arrested and charged by financial crime squad detectives after the AFL probe had begun – over claims he fraudulently obtained hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Murray Valley Aboriginal Co-operative – while his past association with one of the four panellists emerged as another point of contention.
Egan is due to face a committal hearing in August.
There were also concerns that members of the AFL panel were seeking to broaden its scope to explore other claims of racism within the game.
Despite conducting eight months of work, the Quinn panel made no findings and failed to produce its own report.
Multiple parties said the establishment of a “diverse, independent panel” to investigate the claims – instead of private arbitration overseen by a retired, eminent judge – was the AFL’s critical error.

“They chose the wrong model,” one legal figure has said. “It was the sliding doors moment – a massive error of judgement that prolonged the misery for all. It became a runaway train.”
Justice Middleton, who presided over the 2014 Essendon-ASADA Federal Court case, is now a senior adviser at the AFL’s law firm DLA Piper.
Gordon Legal was engaged to act as the AFL’s counsel a week after the scandal erupted, helping draft the original terms of reference for the panel’s probe.
 

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Engimal v3 said:
I get where you're coming from, but language isn't set in stone - it evolves over time. "Literally" used to strictly mean "in a literal manner," but people have started using it for emphasis, even when they're exaggerating. It's kind of like a modern twist on the word. So when HairyO says "mediation literally fails all the time," he doesn't mean it has never worked, ever. It's just a way of saying it rarely works, at least in his experience.

It's similar to saying, "I'm literally starving" when you’re just really hungry. It’s an example of hyperbole, a figure of speech where you exaggerate for effect. Language is flexible and constantly changing, and sometimes words take on new meanings or additional uses. So "literally" can mean "figuratively" now — it's just how many people talk these days.
Click to expand...
But people who say "I am bias" deserve every known punishment
 
TheGreatBarryB said:
Wow wasn’t aware of this …

View attachment 2004647

That’s Middleton a former Federal Court judge and Commissioner of Aust Law Reform Comm. plus compensation experts Gordon Legal advising AFL and why AFL disbanded four man independent panel.

I’d feel quite confident going to court if I was Clarkson and Fagan

Click to expand...

Anyone with half a brain knew this from the start. Can’t convict someone on claims; they need to be substantiated and proven with supporting evidence.
 
Bradkli said:
Hawthorn racism investigation: The secret reports and what really happened
Exactly one year ago, on May 30, 2023, the AFL’s Hawthorn racism investigation was shut down. Today, MICHAEL WARNER reveals what really happened with Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt.


The AFL has ended its investigation into the historic allegations of racism at the Hawthorn Football Club with no adverse findings made against Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan, or Jason Burt. The sporting body concluded legal action can no longer be taken against the AFL. The six complainants could still take legal action against Clarkson, Fagan and Burt despite the resolution showing no adverse findings against them.

Two secret reports commissioned by the AFL into the Hawthorn racism scandal found “a startling lack of evidence” in the cases alleged against Alastair Clarkson, Chris Fagan and Jason Burt.

The separate reports, authored by a retired Federal Court judge and a top Melbourne law firm, concluded that the gravest allegation – that an Indigenous player and his partner were pressured to terminate a pregnancy – could not be substantiated.

A claim that the Hawks had demanded the separation of another First Nations family for the sake of the player’s career was also considered to be “lacking in evidence”.
The two reports – one by Justice John Middleton and the other by Gordon Legal – found that there was “no basis whatsoever” to support suggestions a subculture of racism had existed at Hawthorn during the club’s golden premiership era of 2008-15 or that the three accused club officials had behaved in anything other than a “caring” way for their players.

The AFL Commission relied upon the reports to terminate the four-person independent investigation panel led by Bernard Quinn KC, which had failed to make any findings eight months after being established following the leaking of the Hawthorn “cultural safety review” in grand final week 2022.
Alastair Clarkson and Chris Fagan during their time at Hawthorn.

The Hawks remain under pressure to make compensation payments to the First Nations families and the coaches following mediation in the Australian Human Rights Commission.
But the Herald Sun can reveal Justice Middleton and Gordon Legal, led by former Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon, presented their findings to the AFL last May after being granted access to all of the evidence gathered by the Quinn panel.
The Gordon Legal report called for an immediate end to the AFL probe and asserted that there was “no sufficient evidence” to substantiate the vast majority of the claims made against the former Hawks trio.
Justice Middleton concurred with Gordon Legal’s assessment of the case and reiterated that the league should abandon the panel and had legal grounds to do so.

In the original ABC story that sparked the scandal, a former Hawks player called “Ian” alleged a group of coaches, including Clarkson and Fagan, ushered him into an office where he was urged to have his partner’s pregnancy aborted.

“Clarkson just leaned over me and demanded that I needed to get rid of my unborn child and my partner,” Ian said.
“I was then manipulated and convinced to remove my SIM card from my phone, so there was no further contact between my family and me.
“He told me to kill my unborn kid.”
Clarkson has always vehemently denied the allegations made against him.

The AFL commissioned the secret reports after the Quinn-led panel had become bogged down in acrimonious legal debate.
It can be revealed the racism investigation turned on its head on the eve of Christmas 2022 when lawyers for the accused parties received detailed statements from the First Nations complainants – the first time the claims could be cross-checked against the contents of the Hawthorn review authored by Indigenous consultant Phil Egan.

Many of the lawyers who received the statements were shocked by the lack of detail and the inconsistencies surrounding the most serious allegations.
“There were major gaps in the material,” one figure said.
When the probe recommenced in January last year, lawyers for Clarkson, Fagan and Burt demanded access to internal Hawthorn records they believed would help clear the trio of wrongdoing, but high-profile lawyer Leon Zwier, who continues to act for four of the Indigenous families, argued that their release would be a breach of his clients’ privacy.
“Zwier seemed to believe he should be the only lawyer who got to see them,” a source close to the saga said.
“Procedural fairness appeared to be a one-way street.”

Threats of legal action mounted against the AFL, which was ultimately responsible for the panel, despite the league’s own frustrations at the slow pace of the investigation process.
Genuine concerns over the decline of Clarkson’s mental health also became a factor.
Among the mountains of material at the centre of the probe was an interview the AFL panel conducted with retired Hawthorn Indigenous great Shaun Burgoyne, which was described as “a powerful endorsement of his old coach and club in the period under question”.
Clarkson and Fagan before their new clubs faced off last year.

Tensions reached breaking point when Zwier failed to show up at a secret meeting between all parties at Marvel Stadium on May 15 last year – the same week Clarkson took a leave of absence from the game and launched a scathing attack on the investigations process.
Fagan’s lawyers had flown from Brisbane for the Marvel meeting, adding fuel to a raging fire.
“We were told all day he was about to arrive, but we all left after 6pm,” one attendee said.
“It’s hard to believe it wasn’t deliberate. No explanation was ever given.

“The next thing we heard was that Zwier wanted a mediation in Adelaide where he would be the only lawyer present.”
None of the other parties understood why Adelaide had been suggested as a venue for mediation, a city with no connection to any of the affected parties or events, and the proposal was rejected.

The racism crisis came to a head on May 28 last year when major law firm Clayton Utz, representing Fagan, threatened a Supreme Court injunction against the AFL process.
The league remained concerned about “blowback” in shutting down the inquiry, but were advised that the public and the media had shifted and become more sympathetic to the plight of Clarkson and Fagan.

At a snap Tuesday night press conference on May 30, AFL boss Gillon McLachlan announced the panel’s probe had been wound up and that the league had struck a deal with lawyers for the Indigenous players in which “no adverse findings have been made against any of the individuals against whom allegations have been made”.
No mention of the existence of the Middleton or Gordon Legal reports was made by the AFL at the time.

Egan was arrested and charged by financial crime squad detectives after the AFL probe had begun – over claims he fraudulently obtained hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Murray Valley Aboriginal Co-operative – while his past association with one of the four panellists emerged as another point of contention.
Egan is due to face a committal hearing in August.
There were also concerns that members of the AFL panel were seeking to broaden its scope to explore other claims of racism within the game.
Despite conducting eight months of work, the Quinn panel made no findings and failed to produce its own report.
Multiple parties said the establishment of a “diverse, independent panel” to investigate the claims – instead of private arbitration overseen by a retired, eminent judge – was the AFL’s critical error.

“They chose the wrong model,” one legal figure has said. “It was the sliding doors moment – a massive error of judgement that prolonged the misery for all. It became a runaway train.”
Justice Middleton, who presided over the 2014 Essendon-ASADA Federal Court case, is now a senior adviser at the AFL’s law firm DLA Piper.
Gordon Legal was engaged to act as the AFL’s counsel a week after the scandal erupted, helping draft the original terms of reference for the panel’s probe.
Click to expand...
Lots of posters on here should be reflecting on their ridiculous hate filled accusations, based on nothing (certainly not evidence) but a desire to be the first and loudest on here to shout ‘racist!’ Weak and pathetic. I hope all those accused are OK.
 
Gough said:
Jeff Kennett called it a common sense result which leads me to think that he reckons he's got away with whatever he's done.
Click to expand...
That's half the problem here. People are choosing what's truth or not based on whether they like the people involved & their politics. Cyril was a star. He must be telling the truth. Clarko's unhinged. He must be lying. Throw in politics and you have Kennett's scum so Clarko must be lying and Australia voted no so everyone's racist and it must've happened. They need to go to court and lay out the cases and let those who judge these things for a living decide if there's a case or not
 
South of the Yarra said:
That’s interesting, it appears your reply to my post was about as if the HRC would be interested in investigating a ripped pair of jeans.


What white privileged, middle aged man in a position of power wouldn’t feel confident going into court against a mob of Aboriginals.
Click to expand...

There we go. Didnt take long for the white man justice line.

Completely ignoring the zero evidence any of the players had over any of their claims.

They exaggerated a bunch of stuff thinking they could anonymously get away with it.

Anyone knowing they didnt do what was claimed and that there was zero evidence of what was claimed would feel at least a little confident.
 
TheGreatBarryB said:
Wow wasn’t aware of this …

View attachment 2004647

That’s Middleton a former Federal Court judge and Commissioner of Aust Law Reform Comm. plus compensation experts Gordon Legal advising AFL and why AFL disbanded four man independent panel.

I’d feel quite confident going to court if I was Clarkson and Fagan

Click to expand...

What white privileged middle aged man in a position of power would not feel comfortable going into court against a mob of Aboriginals.
 
Engimal v3 said:
I get where you're coming from, but language isn't set in stone - it evolves over time. "Literally" used to strictly mean "in a literal manner," but people have started using it for emphasis, even when they're exaggerating. It's kind of like a modern twist on the word. So when HairyO says "mediation literally fails all the time," he doesn't mean it has never worked, ever. It's just a way of saying it rarely works, at least in his experience.

It's similar to saying, "I'm literally starving" when you’re just really hungry. It’s an example of hyperbole, a figure of speech where you exaggerate for effect. Language is flexible and constantly changing, and sometimes words take on new meanings or additional uses. So "literally" can mean "figuratively" now — it's just how many people talk these days.
Click to expand...
Star Wars Nerd GIF by BabylonBee
 
Hawks_4478 said:
Take the chip off your shoulder and get on with life. You’ve derailed this thread enough.
Click to expand...
Is he being too uppity for you? Should he know his place a bit better? Back of the bus for the likes of him, right? Your posting is a perfect representation of Australia's ongoing racism - best to sweep it all under the rug.
 

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NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed. Part 3

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