NO TROLLS Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

[Wosh]

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NO TROLLS - Hawthorn Racism Review - Sensitive issues discussed.

Don’t use this thread as an opportunity to troll North or any other clubs, you’ll be removed from the discussion. Stick to the topic and please keep it civil and respectful to those involved. Keep personal arguements out of this thread. Help moderators by not quoting obvious trolls and use the...

www.bigfooty.com

Link to Hawthorn Statement. - Link to ABC Sports article. - Leaked Report

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Did they say they had these emails?

I assume the club would have a corporate email system that keeps these files.

From the article. All the below should be verifiable

“Short on alternatives, she went to a police station and asked if they could carry out a welfare check on Zac, providing the phone numbers of Clarkson, Burt and Fagan. She says the police called them but none answered, and that a message was left with Burt.

In a string of increasingly panicked emails, Kylie sought explanations from Hawthorn officials, or even confirmation that her partner was safe.”

“In one of the emails, to the club's most senior management, Kylie's torment can be summarised in one line: "Not one person has contacted me and asked if I'm OK or needed help, nobody has checked that the baby is OK."

“I have not heard a word from Hawthorn since the last time I emailed them, and their response to that email was that my issues were 'beyond their scope of expertise and influence '."

 

[Bartel84]

Context matters...

What if it was a violent relationship? What if it was toxic and the player asked for advice where among other things coaches said "might be worth leaving"

What if the relationship was toxic, doctors told them the baby would be highly disabled if you keep it, complicationsmay kill your partner, or simply questioned whether he wanted kids at all. "Have you spoken to your partner about all options here" could be a bloody innocent convo with well meaning.

People flying off the rails without knowing any context. Id all but gaurantee Clarko/Fagan didnt randomly bring a player into a room and say "you're not keeping a baby you fool."

Maybe thats too hard to fathom someone could do that. I just dont see it. Not a chance.

If they have, never to be seen again obviously. Unlikely however

In this case no one but indigenous players have come out and spare me coaches aren’t equipped to be social workers, therapists on very personal issues. I know you want to think otherwise but this was very inappropriate to the extreme.

 

[burge13]

In this case no one but indigenous players have come out and spare me coaches aren’t equipped to be social workers, therapists on very personal issues. I know you want to think otherwise but this was very inappropriate to the extreme.

Theyre not social workers it could have been a normal convo. They have close relationships with players, all coaches do

Until you know the context of conversations you cant hang them. As i said, i guarantee the context will matter here in the end

 

[citizen-erased]

I mean australia has a long history of thinking they knew what was the right thing for First Nations people and thinking they were doing what was right. Doesn’t mean they would get off Scott free.

Yeah. Has a lot of that about it.

But also some absolutely horrible accusations given its the 21st century....suggesting an abortion, changing a sim card, moving them under supervision....

 

[Bartel84]

Theyre not social workers it could have been a normal convo. They have close relationships with players, all coaches do

Until you know the context of conversations you cant hang them. As i said, i guarantee the context will matter here in the end

It would have to be a HUGE communication breakdown/misunderstanding because I’m not sure in any context for these players the conduct from the coaches was appropriate. Sounds like the coaches have got way to involved in their players personal life.

 

[Pie eyed]

The journo & the ABC would be conscious of the potential damage. It hasnt stopped the ABC in the past: Corrections & Clarifications

e.g https:

Andrew Laming defamation case costs ABC nearly $200,000

ABC managing director David Anderson confirmed the defamation case involving Four Corners reporter Louise Milligan has cost the public broadcaster $184,000 to date.

www.afr.com

Off topic, but without the courage of some ABC journalists and the full support of an independent ABC not only this story but many, many other
critically important stories would have never come to light.

The RC into Banking, RC into the Stolen Generation, RC into Institutional Child Sexual Abuse, The investigation into illegal killings in Afghanistan etc etc.

We need to acknowledge this.

 

[Soggy2112]

Anyone think draft sanctions should be involved? I don't believe fines should solely be enough if guilty.

I disagree, draft sanctions should not be involved.

Draft sanctions as a punishment should be reserved for when a club “cheats” and gains an unfair advantage on its opponents: tanking, drugs, salary cap violations etc.

With this it would be unfair to punish the club. If you punish the club you ultimately punish the players, as their chance of success is diminished. In this scenario, the players are the victim, not the opposition. I’d imagine that right now this is an incredibly tough time for Wingard and Impey, yet they would partly bear the brunt of such a punishment. Meanwhile Fagan and Clarkson are at other clubs and probably don’t care if Hawthorn are punished.

Punish the individuals involved, e.g. if it comes out that Mitchell knew and was a part of this, he should cop it, but don’t put a blanket punishment on the club.

 

[The Lone Latic]

Anyone think draft sanctions should be involved? I don't believe fines should solely be enough if guilty.

IF these allegations prove true and North and Brisbane lose their coaches, then I would expect something to hit Hawthorn given this was the club in which the incidents took place and were supposed to be looking after the welfare of all players in general. I assume it would under the umbrella of bringing the game into disrepute or something similar. Whether it's soft cap penalties (though the indigenous welfare support cannot be touched as part of any cuts as much as I suspect Kennett would want that to be first to go), draft sanctions or hell, forced to play a year without the ability to earn premiership points like what the storm was hit when caught salary cap cheating and not be rewarded in the draft foe finishing bottom and being placed at the back of the draft (eg, r1 pick is 18).

But I am a cynic and doubt the AFL would be willing to punish a big Vic club unless they absolutely had to, and if they did, then, nothing that would leave long term effects

 

[faible]

What if it was a violent relationship? What if it was toxic and the player asked for advice where among other things coaches said "might be worth leaving"

Refer them to the Club Doctor or Psychologist.

What if the relationship was toxic, doctors told them the baby would be highly disabled if you keep it, complicationsmay kill your partner, or simply questioned whether he wanted kids at all. "Have you spoken to your partner about all options here" could be a bloody innocent convo with well meaning.

Refer them to the Club Doctor or Psychologist.

Id all but gaurantee Clarko/Fagan didnt randomly bring a player into a room and say "you're not keeping a baby you fool."

I appreciate you chiming in with a guarantee here, but perhaps you need to listen to every single past player's comments on the matter. Not one of them are suggesting they couldn't believe Clarkson would do that, they all say they didn't know about it.

Having three different players interviewed by the ABC with eerily similar stories about how they and their partners or families were treated, tells me this is one of those situations like at Essendon, like at Collingwood, like at Adelaide, where there's a hell of a lot of truth to the comments.

Keep in mind the ABC only spoke to three players, whilst we know the Hawthorn investigation canvassed a lot more than three.

Not a chance.

Ah huh.

 

[eaglespremiers]

Fagan is pretty strong in his statements.

"I deny, categorically, the allegations of wrongdoing by me in relation to First Nations players at the Hawthorn Football Club. I have had very positive relationships with First Nations players throughout my many years in football, and, indeed players from different racial and ethnic groups.

"I intend to defend myself. It is my hope that people will judge me based upon the way I actually conduct myself and not by what is written in the media. I support and welcome the investigation announced by the AFL yesterday. I intend to participate fully in the investigation and look forward to being heard and being accorded due process and fairness.

This quote left out a vital part of Fagan's response as well:
"I had no opportunity to, and did not, participate in any way in the review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club. I was not interviewed. Nor was I invited to be interviewed. No one associated with the review ever put any allegation to me for a response."
https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/d...l/news-story/2287db14692121344fdfaa862306a606

 

[Bartel84]

To those screaming well wait for the context it could be substance abuse, DV etc I will say this…

Plenty of AFL players are glorified drug abuses and have tenuous records regarding treatment of women. I bet you anything clarko or any other club would have put their nose into a white players business…

It’s laughable that some can’t see a double standard just because of this.

 

[Pie eyed]

In this case no one but indigenous players have come out and spare me coaches aren’t equipped to be social workers, therapists on very personal issues. I know you want to think otherwise but this was very inappropriate to the extreme.

As I understand it the sole focus of the review was the treatment of indigenous players and alleged racism at the club, in response to claims by Cyril Rioli.
Why would others "come out"?
Am I missing something or misconstrued your point?

 

[76woodenspooners]

None of us know exactly what was said and done yet but it will all come out in due course, I just hope the First Nations players in all this are given the strong resources and support they need too.

How do we know that this was limited to First Nations players?

The scope of the Hawthorn report was limited to the treatment of First Nations players, so by exclusion we have no idea whether it applied to others.

We don’t know whether there was or wasn’t a racial element to which players were or weren’t treated appallingly. Was it just First Nations players? Or was it all players?

Obviously, regardless, it doesn’t diminish what happened, nor does it diminish the plight of those affected. It’s just that if we are to address what happened, it’s useful to properly understand what specifically did happen.

Hopefully the AFL investigation gets to the bottom of it.

 

[Bartel84]

This quote left out a vital part of Fagan's response as well:
"I had no opportunity to, and did not, participate in any way in the review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club. I was not interviewed. Nor was I invited to be interviewed. No one associated with the review ever put any allegation to me for a response."
https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/d...l/news-story/2287db14692121344fdfaa862306a606

Cosby, Weinstein, r Kelly etc etc… they never have admitted guilt for anything. No one ever comes out and says hey I’m racist sorry or anything close..

Look at macguire over the years… as racist as they come and denies being so

Everyone expected fagan and Clarkson to deny deny deny

 

[South of the Yarra]

Thanks for your words throughout this thread SOTY. I keep having to stop myself from using phrases like 'this is beyond belief', because it sadly is very believable.

Look forward to another historical Pies draft one day

Cheers mate. Can’t wait.

 

[The Lone Latic]

I disagree, draft sanctions should not be involved.

Draft sanctions as a punishment should be reserved for when a club “cheats” and gains an unfair advantage on its opponents: tanking, drugs, salary cap violations etc.

With this it would be unfair to punish the club. If you punish the club you ultimately punish the players, as their chance of success is diminished. In this scenario, the players are the victim, not the opposition. I’d imagine that right now this is an incredibly tough time for Wingard and Impey, yet they would partly bear the brunt of such a punishment. Meanwhile Fagan and Clarkson are at other clubs and probably don’t care if Hawthorn are punished.

Punish the individuals involved, e.g. if it comes out that Mitchell knew and was a part of this, he should cop it, but don’t put a blanket punishment on the club.

Would it not be under the Club's duty of care to their players to provide a safe working environment? IF true, then I'd thought they have failed in this duty and it shouldn't be left to North and Brisbane to be the only clubs impacted by the immediate fall out whilst the Hawks say "oh, it happened in the past, the individuals aren't here anymore so it's not our problem now, move on please as our current progam in place has been given a tick by this review albeit can be improved".

 

[momentbymoment]

Anyone think draft sanctions should be involved? I don't believe fines should solely be enough if guilty.

Maybe a trade ban?

 

[Bartel84]

How do we know that this was limited to First Nations players?

The scope of the Hawthorn report was limited to the treatment of First Nations players, so by exclusion we have no idea whether it applied to others.

We don’t know whether there was or wasn’t a racial element to which players were or weren’t treated appallingly. Was it just First Nations players? Or was it all players?

Obviously, regardless, it doesn’t diminish what happened, nor does it diminish the plight of those affected. It’s just that if we are to address what happened, it’s useful to properly understand what specifically did happen.

Hopefully the AFL investigation gets to the bottom of it.

Look cmon now… some white babies were taken from families just like indigenous but the indigenous kids were stolen for a general reason that they weren’t safe in their cultural setting. You have to look at this in a cultural context because it’s historical trauma.

 

[momentbymoment]

Hey buddy, do you remember that time that Clarkson had an aggressive alteraction with a Port Adelaide fan, resulting in the fan being punched? No?
Do you remember the time he abused an amateur, junior football umpire at his son's football match? No? I do.
Oh, and do you remember the time he punched a hole in the wall of the coaches box? Yeah, I do.
What a reputable human being he is. He could never have done anything like this...

Unsociable?

 

[eaglespremiers]

Cosby, Weinstein, r Kelly etc etc… they never have admitted guilt for anything. No one ever comes out and says hey I’m racist sorry or anything close..

Look at macguire over the years… as racist as they come and denies being so

Everyone expected fagan and Clarkson to deny deny deny

Sure, but that doesn't relate to the quote I posted, which was that Fagan alleges that at no point was he even invited to contribute to (and possibly was not even aware of) this report.
This is relevant irrespective of his denial and possible guilt.

 

[pjcrows]

Do we know where the conversation about abortion took place?

 

[76woodenspooners]

It's pretty simple, mate. Either they did it or they didn't. They don't need days to remember which one.

What specifically do you mean by “it”?

They hadn’t read the Hawthorn report so they’d have no idea what specifically what “it” they are responding to. Even Gil pointed out that the Hawthorn report and the ABC report made different claims.

 

[RedBloodBlackSwan]

Not sure if it has been raised in the 127 pages of commentary so far, but I find it ironic that on a National day of mourning for a monarch whose ancestors committed crimes of dispossession and genocide against First Nations people across our continent and the world, that we now have this day to reflect on and mourn the tragic repercussions of those past acts, which still reverberate across society today through inter-generational trauma and entrenched racism and paternalism.

I also find it ironic that Gil was at pains to stress the seriousness in which the allegations are being treated by reference to the appointment of a panel led by a King’s Counsel (and even worse that Eddie was so keen to emphasise the Kings Counsel that he spoke over a co-presenter who was highlighting the diversity of the panel that would be appointed - tin ear anyone?).

Don’t get me wrong, I think it is great the allegations are being treated seriously and it is also great that the panel will have First Nations representation with a genuine intention of creating a culturally safe approach. I can also understand how despairing it must feel for First Nations people to never be able to fully get out from under the power structures that be.

 

[Bartel84]

Sure, but that doesn't relate to the quote I posted, which was that Fagan alleges that at no point was he even invited to contribute to (and possibly was not even aware of) this report.
This is relevant irrespective of his denial and possible guilt.

That’s fair enough maybe not appropriate examples but my point is they are never going to come out and admit guilt.

 

[burge13]

It would have to be a HUGE communication breakdown/misunderstanding because I’m not sure in any context for these players the conduct from the coaches was appropriate. Sounds like the coaches have got way to involved in their players personal life.

What if they were asked for advice? If coaches could tell something was up and asked then convo ensued...

As i said, no chance they said completely out of the blue "get an abortion and you now live at a coaches house". None

Probably still overstepped regardless but context will still matter