How has Dean Bailey escaped the axe?

[doppleganger]

Not if there were none on the list to begin with. Young players recruited by Bailey who could take up the leadership baton such as Grimes and Scully have been injured hampering their development. Green, Moloney and Bruce all had flaws and McDonald and Neitz were pensioners age. This has everything to do with what he inherited and little to do with what he has created.

It has everything to do with what he created.

He should have identified a lack of leaders and done something about it.

The one bloke who had great leadership qualities, Junior Mac, he forced into early retirement. And he hasn't gone out and traded any leaders in.

Richmond, who arguably were in a worse state than Melbourne, grabbed Cousins and even an ex Melbourne player in Miller to provide leadership to the young kids.

 

[dees178]

It has everything to do with what he created.

He should have identified a lack of leaders and done something about it.

The one bloke who had great leadership qualities, Junior Mac, he forced into early retirement. And he hasn't gone out and traded any leaders in.

Richmond, who arguably were in a worse state than Melbourne, grabbed Cousins and even an ex Melbourne player in Miller to provide leadership to the young kids.

McDonald was an early retirement by 1 year max - he was 34 and had dodgy hammies. Cousins could've been recruited as a punt at the expense of Liam Jurrah. Miller was a VFL hack who's time was up and would've only hindered the development of Jack Watts, Lucas Cook etc.

Judd and Ball were outstanding candidates and would've been a great fit for the club but decided otherwise. Any other recruitments in a leadership sense would have come at too high a cost at the drafting table IMO and hindered a possible flag tilt from 2014. Bailey has absolutely done the right thing from a list management perspective.

The thread was about how he has escaped the axe and I've outlined plenty of legimate reasons. Whether he continues to is a different kettle of fish and all other Melbourne posters would acknowledge that fact.

 

[MightyTiger]

McDonald was an early retirement by 1 year max - he was 34 and had dodgy hammies. Cousins could've been recruited as a punt at the expense of Liam Jurrah. Miller was a VFL hack who's time was up and would've only hindered the development of Jack Watts, Lucas Cook etc.

Judd and Ball were outstanding candidates and would've been a great fit for the club but decided otherwise. Any other recruitments in a leadership sense would have come at too high a cost at the drafting table IMO and hindered a possible flag tilt from 2014. Bailey has absolutely done the right thing from a list management perspective.

The thread was about how he has escaped the axe and I've outlined plenty of legimate reasons. Whether he continues to is a different kettle of fish and all other Melbourne posters would acknowledge that fact.

Funny, cause since Miller has been at the club the development and leadership he has given to our young kids has been invaluable.

I'm just glad that a REAL coach like Damien Hardwick can see the benefits of having such a player like Miller at the club, many Richmond supporters hated the idea of having him at the club even on the Rookie list.

Since then they have now seen his worth of having such a strong leader at the club and on the playing field, by having Miller at Richmond it has allowed Vickery to play as a 3rd Tall while developing and it has allowed Griffiths to come back slowly through his Shoulder Reconstruction.

Miller would have fitted in nicely at Melbourne if Bailey wasn't such an idiot, at least Miller demands the second best defender to go to him and by doing that would allow Watts/Cook and even Jurrah to develop nicely without being used as a battering ram.

Quality leaders are invaluable to a young team, you hear Commentators, Coaches and Players speak about it all the time, yet for some reason Melbourne doesn't seem to see the need for them.

 

[dees178]

Funny, cause since Miller has been at the club the development and leadership he has given to our young kids has been invaluable.

I'm just glad that a REAL coach like Damien Hardwick can see the benefits of having such a player like Miller at the club, many Richmond supporters hated the idea of having him at the club even on the Rookie list.

Since then they have now seen his worth of having such a strong leader at the club and on the playing field, by having Miller at Richmond it has allowed Vickery to play as a 3rd Tall while developing and it has allowed Griffiths to come back slowly through his Shoulder Reconstruction.

Miller would have fitted in nicely at Melbourne if Bailey wasn't such an idiot, at least Miller demands the second best defender to go to him and by doing that would allow Watts/Cook and even Jurrah to develop nicely without being used as a battering ram.

Quality leaders are invaluable to a young team, you hear Commentators, Coaches and Players speak about it all the time, yet for some reason Melbourne doesn't seem to see the need for them.

I give him a month tops before he's back at Coburg. As good a leader as he is he still wouldn't get a game at Melbourne ahead of Watts, Jurrah, Petterd, Dunn, Bate or arguably Newton. At Casey he and Fev would be hindering Cook and Howe. In a forward line bereft of class bar Riewoldt he has something to offer but then so would Matthew Bate or Michael Newton.

 

[mark73]

It's impossible and a waste of time arguing with people who simply don't get it.

 

[doppleganger]

I give him a month tops before he's back at Coburg. As good a leader as he is he still wouldn't get a game at Melbourne ahead of Watts, Jurrah, Petterd, Dunn, Bate or arguably Newton. At Casey he and Fev would be hindering Cook and Howe. In a forward line bereft of class bar Riewoldt he has something to offer but then so would Matthew Bate or Michael Newton.

You miss the point completely.

The leaders dont have to be superstar walk up start best 22 players......they need to be blokes who know what is required and will show what should be expected.

Miller is a professional, he aint the best player but he would be a good example to some of your tall forwards of how to go about it. When they hit the wall physically he may be able to give them a chop out.

MacDonald wouldn't have to play and star every week, but knowing when he steps out on the park that he will lead the way would be invaluable.

It is pretty clear that when things go a bit pear shaped that the dees simply fold.....because Bailey got rid of all leaders at the club.

 

[dees178]

It's impossible and a waste of time arguing with people who simply don't get it.

Agree

 

[dees178]

You miss the point completely.

The leaders dont have to be superstar walk up start best 22 players......they need to be blokes who know what is required and will show what should be expected.

Miller is a professional, he aint the best player but he would be a good example to some of your tall forwards of how to go about it. When they hit the wall physically he may be able to give them a chop out.

MacDonald wouldn't have to play and star every week, but knowing when he steps out on the park that he will lead the way would be invaluable.

It is pretty clear that when things go a bit pear shaped that the dees simply fold.....because Bailey got rid of all leaders at the club.

There were none to start with which is the point you seem to be missing. You could've got the coaching job at Brisbane using those sort of recruiting theories.

 

[MightyTiger]

I give him a month tops before he's back at Coburg. As good a leader as he is he still wouldn't get a game at Melbourne ahead of Watts, Jurrah, Petterd, Dunn, Bate or arguably Newton. At Casey he and Fev would be hindering Cook and Howe. In a forward line bereft of class bar Riewoldt he has something to offer but then so would Matthew Bate or Michael Newton.

Whether he plays at VFL or at AFL level it isn't the point, you need these guys for leadership at both levels.

Petterd - Like this guy a lot but he isn't a KPF sitting at 185CMS
Bate - has been rubbish this year (Not a KPF)
Dunn - has been rubbish (Not a KPF)
Newton - is rubbish (Not a KPF)
Jurrah - is flashy but not much else (Not a KPP)
Watts - has shown a little in bits and pieces (Not big enough yet to play KPF/CHF)

Cook - To skinny at the moment
Howe - Who?

It's funny you say a forward line bereft of class yet we are one of the highest scoring teams to date and we haven't even played Gold Coast yet.

It's no coincidence that since Miller has been at the club Vickery is having his best year to date, and is having a much better then Watts has showed throughout his career.

 

[MightyTiger]

There were none to start with which is the point you seem to be missing. You could've got the coaching job at Brisbane using those sort of recruiting theories.

Miller, McDonald and Bruce seem like a good trio of Experienced leaders to me.

 

[theflea]

I thought he was contributing to the Watts bagging, my bad if I was wrong

I meant being COMPETITIVE in finals in 2-3 three years, I have also said in this thread numerous times that I expect finals NEXT year

Pay attention before having a go at me bud.[/quote

you should take some of your own advice considering you bought j rewvoldt into the debate!!

 

[dees178]

Whether he plays at VFL or at AFL level it isn't the point, you need these guys for leadership at both levels.

Petterd - Like this guy a lot but he isn't a KPF sitting at 185CMS A marking lead up forward
Bate - has been rubbish this year (Not a KPF) He and Miller are pretty much the same player
Dunn - has been rubbish (Not a KPF) Is a tall defensive forward
Newton - is rubbish (Not a KPF) Can only play KPF
Jurrah - is flashy but not much else (Not a KPP) Is a full forward
Watts - has shown a little in bits and pieces (Not big enough yet to play KPF/CHF) Is developing nicely as a tall

Cook - To skinny at the moment LOLWOT? Is bigger than Watts
Howe - Who? The next Robbo hopefully, undersized CHF with huge leap

It's funny you say a forward line bereft of class yet we are one of the highest scoring teams to date and we haven't even played Gold Coast yet.

No you're right Jake King, Robin Nahas, Matt White are positively A grade

It's no coincidence that since Miller has been at the club Vickery is having his best year to date, and is having a much better then Watts has showed throughout his career. Watts has been doing well this year, I'd having having jet midfielders helps Vickery far more than Miller does

When Griffiths gets back Miller is gone.

 

[doppleganger]

It's impossible and a waste of time arguing with people who simply don't get it.

What do we not get??

Imagine if Scott forced guys like Rawlings, Firrito and Booma Harvey out of the club before they wanted.

That is what happened at Melbourne....and now the supporters use the excuse that they have no leaders.....it is laughable.

After four years the club has no leadership, and finals look along way away.....yet things are good down at demonland because they see improvement in a couple of early draft picks!

 

[MightyTiger]

When Griffiths gets back Miller is gone.

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/players/tabid/7501/category/senior/season/2011/default.aspx

NO HT WT D.O.B
21 Cook, Lucas 196 81 03.03.92

NO HT WT D.O.B
4 Watts, Jack 196 91 26.03.91

Are you sure Cook is bigger then Watts?

The one thing you keep dismissing is that Miller has 1 thing that none of those kids have, and that is AFL experience and excellent leadership.

And yes I agree once Griffiths is ready Miller goes back to the VFL where he can help our other developing tall's in the VFL and still have him at the club at training etc.

 

[dees178]

Miller, McDonald and Bruce seem like a good trio of Experienced leaders to me.

Miller and Bruce were fatally flawed with on field leadership too many soft performances! For the millionth time McDonald was 34 with dodgy hammies and had maybe 6 games in him.

What do we not get??

Imagine if Scott forced guys like Rawlings, Firrito and Booma Harvey out of the club before they wanted.

That is what happened at Melbourne....and now the supporters use the excuse that they have no leaders.....it is laughable.

After four years the club has no leadership, and finals look along way away.....yet things are good down at demonland because they see improvement in a couple of early draft picks!

Melbourne had nobody the calibre of Rawlings, Harvey or Firrito at the club from a playing or leadership perspective except for Neitz and McDonald and both were close to list cloggers by the end of their careers. Thats what you don't get, that's whats laughable.
Melbourne will make finals next year at the latest all things being equal, but due to the leadership vacuum that was inherited not created by Bailey won't be anywhere near their peak til 2014-15.
No Melbourne supporter is satisfied or happy with this year but we actually take time to think about why this may have happened. Injuries and lack of leadership have a lot to do with it before assessing Bailey's performance.
THIS IS WHAT YOU DON"T GET.
That's all for now.

 

[Tulip]

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/players/tabid/7501/category/senior/season/2011/default.aspx

NO HT WT D.O.B
21 Cook, Lucas 196 81 03.03.92

NO HT WT D.O.B
4 Watts, Jack 196 91 26.03.91

Are you sure Cook is bigger then Watts?

The one thing you keep dismissing is that Miller has 1 thing that none of those kids have, and that is AFL experience and excellent leadership.

And yes I agree once Griffiths is ready Miller goes back to the VFL where he can help our other developing tall's in the VFL and still have him at the club at training etc.

The way you talk about Miller insinuates that he has talent. He's a battering ram to free up the smalls, when he's dropped he'll do the same at Coburg. Don't see what having him at training will do? Teach the players to be soft and inconsistent?

 

[Spanish_Fly]

What do we not get??

Imagine if Scott forced guys like Rawlings, Firrito and Booma Harvey out of the club before they wanted.

That is what happened at Melbourne....and now the supporters use the excuse that they have no leaders.....it is laughable.

After four years the club has no leadership, and finals look along way away.....yet things are good down at demonland because they see improvement in a couple of early draft picks!

I assumed he meant the Dees supporter as not getting it. I think your POV is solid, reasonable and common sense.

 

[CowboyFromHell]

What do we not get??

Imagine if Scott forced guys like Rawlings, Firrito and Booma Harvey out of the club before they wanted.

That is what happened at Melbourne....and now the supporters use the excuse that they have no leaders.....it is laughable.

After four years the club has no leadership, and finals look along way away.....yet things are good down at demonland because they see improvement in a couple of early draft picks!

Out of the club before they wanted? It's not up to them. These "leaders" we had weren't real good leaders to begin with, Neitz aside. No-one argues that letting McDonald go was a mistake but guys like Bruce, Yze, White etc were from an era of downhill skiers and we wanted to COMPLETELY start over and re-build the culture.

We drafted players with leadership skills such as Grimes, Trengove, Scully etc who will grow in to their roles. It takes time. We may end up taking a LONG time but we will get there.

And whoever said we thought things were good? You talk so much rubbish it's laughable. No-one is happy with the way we are playing and we rightly want to see the improvement we know is there.

 

[doppleganger]

Injuries and lack of leadership have a lot to do with it before assessing Bailey's performance.
THIS IS WHAT YOU DON"T GET.
That's all for now.

Injuries can come from playing kids when they are not physically ready.

After being in charge for four years having no leaders rest squarely with Bailey.

It is clear, having good experienced leaders around the club is invaluable...Melbourne fecked all theirs off......and didn't get any extra in.

People should be blaming Bailey for this....instead you make excuses for him.

 

[master bate]

Injuries can come from playing kids when they are not physically ready.

After being in charge for four years having no leaders rest squarely with Bailey.

It is clear, having good experienced leaders around the club is invaluable...Melbourne fecked all theirs off......and didn't get any extra in.

People should be blaming Bailey for this....instead you make excuses for him.

None of Garland, Bail, Rivers, Jamar or Grimes are kids that were played before they were physically ready. You could make a tentative case for McKenzie and Scully but those 2 have done injuries more related to their preseasons.

James McDonald was a bad call, but it is a call that's been compounded by losing Grimes, Trengove, Scully and McKenzie at the same time. They are 4 on field leaders of the highest quality, including 3 ball winning midfielders a position we are badly lacking.

We swapped Miller for Robbie Campbell in terms of off field leadership.

Sometimes you have to do the best you can and wait until a generation comes through. Adding more leaders of the same level to a group would achieve nothing.

I do agree it's Bailey's responsibility, but I don't think any list management would've made much of a difference and probably only hurt in the long term.

 

[mark73]

What do we not get??

Imagine if Scott forced guys like Rawlings, Firrito and Booma Harvey out of the club before they wanted.

That is what happened at Melbourne....and now the supporters use the excuse that they have no leaders.....it is laughable.

After four years the club has no leadership, and finals look along way away.....yet things are good down at demonland because they see improvement in a couple of early draft picks!

No it didn't, they got rid of some blokes who'd been stinking it up for a while and a guy who was 34 years old.

 

[ThePuppetMaster]

you should take some of your own advice considering you bought j rewvoldt into the debate!!

I openly admitted I was wrong, and explained why I brought it up

 

[Reckoner Tiger]

Miller, McDonald and Bruce seem like a good trio of Experienced leaders to me.

They may not have been setting the world on fire anymore but retain 1-2 of them and things could be a fair bit different at Melbourne.

Well and truly bereft of leadership on-field is their team at the moment.

 

[demonfan9]

Firstly, to address the OP, Bailey has escaped the axe (prior to 2011) because he was given an opportunity to rebuild a failing list (bottom four in 2007 under Daniher) and bring in a raft of quality youngsters who will hopefully give us success in the future. He inherited a very poor list, and as a result we were terrible in 2008 and 2009. In his third season, we showed some definate signs of improvement (not just from a win-loss point of view, but our competitiveness and style of play). So at the end of 2010, Bailey had coached three seasons and his most recent one was a step in the positive direction. You could not argue any case for him to be sacked at that point.

We're now a third of the way into his fourth season and the pressure is definately starting to mount (from the fans, from the media, hopefully from the board too). The reason is that we are now expected to perform better than we currently are. We're not a basket case (3 wins, 3 losses and 1 draw suggests not) so there is no reason to sack Bailey on the spot. But come the end of the season, if our performances do not improve then I feel that he will face the axe. He basically has the remaining 16 weeks to keep his job. If we keep performing at the same inconsistent level for the rest of the season, and we do renew his contract, then you could definately ask the question "how was Bailey escaped the axe?". But as it stands, he's now at the crossroads and must improve if he wants to coach this team in 2012 and beyond.

 

[demonfan9]

As for our list management, that is another discussion in itself. We've had to make some tough calls over the past four seasons, some were right, some were wrong, but no club goes without making mistakes. I personally believe that our list is in a healthy state (no pun intended given our current injuries) but naturally, it's not perfect. Our main weakness at the moment is probably the lack of quality experienced leaders. Why is that?

Firstly, we never had many of them anyway. Throughout much of Daniher's reign, the likes of Neitz, Yze, White, McDonald, Robertson, Bruce and Johnstone were our leaders. Out of those, only Neitz and McDonald had true leadership qualities. The others were all very good players in their prime, but could be quite flakey and simply weren't natural leaders. Out of that group, only Bruce is still playing. I never viewed him as a good leader anyway, and his impact on the field was decreasing each year. Hasn't exactly set the world alight at Hawthorn and is currently injured. His absence has allowed Tapscott to take his spot and I am very very pleased with that. Johnstone got traded to Brisbane in return for Grimes. They could not be polar opposites in their approach to football, and every single Melbourne fan is glad about that. Correct call. Could Jeff White have gone again in 2009? Maybe, but he was another "good player, average leader" that we seemed to have so many of. Once White retired, Jamar and Johnson were left to battle it out for the #1 ruck spot. Twelve months later, Jamar goes from spud to All Australian ruckman. That speaks for itself really.

McDonald is the debatable one, as his form warranted a contract renewal, but the club was iffy over his age and hamstrings. It would have been the safe option to keep him around one more year, but they took a risk and moved him on. Has that been the right move? Hard to say. No doubt, we could definately use his leadership around the club, and that has shown in some of our losses. However, I think there's been a clear correlation in his absence and the improvement in Brent Moloney's game, so much so that he's second in the Herald Sun Player of the Year award behind Jobe Watson. I also think that we have enough inside midfielders to cover McDonald (Moloney, Jones, Sylvia, McKenzie, Scully, Gysberts). So while some will argue that delisting him was a huge mistake, I don't think it's as cut and dry as that.

Other experienced players that have moved on over the past two seasons include McLean and Miller. McLean chose to leave the club, but it has been a blessing in disguise. Not only did we draft young Gybserts who looks very promising, but he's almost been rendered useless given his proneness to injuries, lack of pace and inability to get a senior game. Since 2007 he has missed a total of 43 senior games due to injury or form. He has played in just 6 of 30 games at Carlton. Given he didn't want to be at Melbourne anymore, I can't say that we miss his leadership. As for Miller, if he is doing well at Richmond (I haven't really seen him play) then good luck to all the Tiger fans. But he had 9 years at Melbourne, almost an entire decade to make good, and he couldn't. Honestly, how many years do you give a bloke that is simply not performing? Even if he is considered a good leader, you have to make a stand and cut the blokes that aren't good enough. Otherwise you're just rewarding mediocrity. Maybe he's improved in a new environment, maybe it's just a honeymoon period and he'll go back to his usual level, but from a Melbourne point of view, we absolutely made the right call in delisting Miller.

So you look at all these examples in isolation and they appear correct (except for the McDonald case which can be argued either side). As a whole, it looks like a massive loss of experience and leadership, and you can argue that we probably should have kept at least one of these guys a bit longer (either Bruce or McDonald). But no doubt the majority of these decisions by the football club were correct.