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AFLW 2024 - Round 10 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
Hurley and Ryder, Cloke and Dawes, Franklin and Roughead, Walker and Tippett
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blue_chick
Team Captain
I agree with you there. I love to see Kennedy doing well. I wish him all the best in the future even if he isnt at our club anymore. Darling looks a good 1 also. Good luck for the rest of the year, dont mind the Eagles
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haha!! yeah but not as good as kennedy and darling..or as tough
I have a feeling that people are putting this pair's potential and their hopes at what these players will become just a little bit ahead of actual current output. Nothing new for BigFooty though
They are doing very well for a young tandem though, I'll give them that (better on actual output than the Tippett/Walker tandem, despite seemingly having less talent and potential, if that makes sense). Kennedy is now in his 6th AFL season - probably the last one where he can be referred to as a "young/developing player.So far in 2011, IMO the Cloke/Dawes and Franklin/Roughead combos are clearly leading the way, with the Collingwood tandem is possibly edging the Hawks pair (cue calls of own club bias) as far as being a complete key forward package of marking (the Buddy/Roughy tandem is sorely lacking in this area, despite being equal on goals/goals contributed), goalkicking and giving tackling/defensive effort as well (not usually the domain of the big forwards, but increasing important in today's game, and a good indicator of overall workrate). The knock used on the Collingwood pair used to be that the Collingwood pair didn't kick enough goals (and that Cloke wasn't accurate enough), but they've improved that markedly this year (along with their accuracy, although Dawes has always been a nice shot at goal). Essendon supporters will hate me for this (as it takes away one of the positives of their tandem), but I don't rate goal assists as being as important a statistical measure for key forwards as I would for other smaller forwards and midfielders. The key forwards are traditionally meant to be the finishers, with the others being the set-up men. Still, it's a bonus that the Essendon pair can provide as much as they do for their team in this area.
Sure, put the Collingwood pair's success early this year it down to volume of ball and quality of delivery all you like, but as I've said in the past to those that dismissed Cameron Mooney's peak output as solely being a byproduct of Geelong's superstar midfield, the forward still has to have the ability to make the most of the opportunities by actually taking the marks and kicking the goals. In fact, show me one key forward in the history of the game who wasn't reliant on delivery from teammates for the majority of the goal-scoring opportunities.
Looking at the hard stats as they stand so far this year (after Round 4):
Goals Per Game (Combined)
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 5.75
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 5.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 3.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 3.25
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 3.17
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 4.25
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 2.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 2.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 2.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 2.25
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 3.00
- Kennedy/Darling - 1.50
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 0.50
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 0.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 0.50
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 6.50
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 6.25
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 6.25
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 4.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 3.67
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 34.50
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 32.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 28.83
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 27.25
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 26.75
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 14.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 13.00
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 12.00
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 9.00
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 9.00
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 5.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 3.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 3.25
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 2.25
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 2.00
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 7.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 7.00
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 6.00
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 4.67
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 4.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 7.25
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 7.00
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 6.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 3.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 1.67
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 200.00
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 197.00
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 182.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 163.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 117.50
- Lance Franklin (Hawthorn, 196cm, 102kg) - 118.25 (ahead of his career bests of 107.50 last year, and 107.00 in his much-hyped 2008 season)
- Chris Dawes (Collingwood, 193cm, 101kg) - 110.50
- Patrick Ryder (Essendon, 197cm, 95kg) - 98.50
- Travis Cloke (Collingwood, 196cm, 101kg) - 86.50
- Michael Hurley (Essendon, 193cm, 89kg) - 84.00
- Josh J. Kennedy (West Coast, 194cm, 99kg) - 83.75
- Jarryd Roughead (Hawthorn, 193cm, 100kg) - 81.75
- Jack Darling (West Coast, 191cm, 87kg) - 80.00
- Kurt Tippett (Adelaide, 201cm, 100kg) - 59.50
- Taylor Walker (Adelaide, 192cm, 97kg) - 58.00
It most certainly is like another language and nobody has a clue which one it is you're speaking.this is like talking to someone in another language.
First off if you actually bothered to read what I was saying. I said cloke was tough but not as tough as the others.
So since then everyone is just laughing at you cause you have had this big childish hissy fit. Get over yourself and stop embarrasing yourself.
Or maybe you are actually a clown in real life and this is you entertaining us all??
You are so far up your proverbial self importance hole you cant see what the real world is sniffing.
your the reason why collingwood are the most hated club in the AFL.
you make dinsosaurs look smart.
I could own your sorry sad cliched attempt at reparte all day.
you=second rate.
The fact is that you still conveniently ignore that you made up the crap about me suggesting that Cloke is superior to Franklin and proceeded to lambast me for it in order to somehow look like you had the upper hand. In the end, it's you who has managed to own yourself by looking every bit the whiney self important child who has had his favourite toy taken away.
It''s probably time to pull your head out of your arse and stop posting. You really are starting to embarrass yourself beyond repair.
I have a feeling that people are putting this pair's potential and their hopes at what these players will become just a little bit ahead of actual current output. Nothing new for BigFooty though
So far in 2011, IMO the Cloke/Dawes and Franklin/Roughead combos are clearly leading the way, with the Collingwood tandem is possibly edging the Hawks pair (cue calls of own club bias) as far as being a complete key forward package of marking (the Buddy/Roughy tandem is sorely lacking in this area, despite being equal on goals/goals contributed), goalkicking and giving tackling/defensive effort as well (not usually the domain of the big forwards, but increasing important in today's game, and a good indicator of overall workrate). The knock used on the Collingwood pair used to be that the Collingwood pair didn't kick enough goals (and that Cloke wasn't accurate enough), but they've improved that markedly this year (along with their accuracy, although Dawes has always been a nice shot at goal). Essendon supporters will hate me for this (as it takes away one of the positives of their tandem), but I don't rate goal assists as being as important a statistical measure for key forwards as I would for other smaller forwards and midfielders. The key forwards are traditionally meant to be the finishers, with the others being the set-up men. Still, it's a bonus that the Essendon pair can provide as much as they do for their team in this area.
Sure, put the Collingwood pair's success early this year it down to volume of ball and quality of delivery all you like, but as I've said in the past to those that dismissed Cameron Mooney's peak output as solely being a byproduct of Geelong's superstar midfield, the forward still has to have the ability to make the most of the opportunities by actually taking the marks and kicking the goals. In fact, show me one key forward in the history of the game who wasn't reliant on delivery from teammates for the majority of the goal-scoring opportunities.
Looking at the hard stats as they stand so far this year (after Round 4):
Goals Per Game (Combined)
Behinds Per Game (Combined)
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 5.75
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 5.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 3.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 3.25
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 3.17
Goal Assists Per Game (Combined)
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 4.25
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 2.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 2.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 2.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 2.25
Goals Contributed (Goals plus Goal Assists) Per Game (Combined)
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 3.00
- Kennedy/Darling - 1.50
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 0.50
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 0.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 0.50
Disposals Per Game (Combined)
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 6.50
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 6.25
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 6.25
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 4.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 3.67
Marks Per Game (Combined)
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 34.50
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 32.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 28.83
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 27.25
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 26.75
Contested Marks Per Game (Combined)
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 14.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 13.00
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 12.00
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 9.00
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 9.00
Inside 50s Per Game (Combined)
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 5.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 3.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 3.25
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 2.25
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 2.00
Tackles Per Game (Combined)
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 7.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 7.00
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 6.00
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 4.67
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 4.50
Champion Data Player Ranking Score Average (Combined)
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 7.25
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 7.00
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 6.75
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 3.50
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 1.67
Champion Data Player Ranking Score Average (Individual)
- Franklin/Roughead (Hawthorn) - 200.00
- Cloke/Dawes (Collingwood) - 197.00
- Ryder/Hurley (Essendon) - 182.50
- Kennedy/Darling (West Coast) - 163.75
- Tippett/Walker (Adelaide) - 117.50
- Lance Franklin (Hawthorn, 196cm, 102kg) - 118.25 (ahead of his career bests of 107.50 last year, and 107.00 in his much-hyped 2008 season)
- Chris Dawes (Collingwood, 193cm, 101kg) - 110.50
- Patrick Ryder (Essendon, 197cm, 95kg) - 98.50
- Travis Cloke (Collingwood, 196cm, 101kg) - 86.50
- Michael Hurley (Essendon, 193cm, 89kg) - 84.00
- Josh J. Kennedy (West Coast, 194cm, 99kg) - 83.75
- Jarryd Roughead (Hawthorn, 193cm, 100kg) - 81.75
- Jack Darling (West Coast, 191cm, 87kg) - 80.00
- Kurt Tippett (Adelaide, 201cm, 100kg) - 59.50
- Taylor Walker (Adelaide, 192cm, 97kg) - 58.00
Awesome post
cloke and dawes have the runs on the board atm.
Imo dawes has improved cloke immeasurably. He has lifted cloke and given him the backbone he required.
Cloke and dawes are clearly the best pair for contested marks.
However I think as of the last round the hawk pair are kicking more goals per game??? correct if wrong and data is current. Historically the HFC duo get the score on the board.
Cloke is a gem but like many big men has taken time to feel his size.
His kicking is his achilles heel atm although clearly he has improved as has roughead and franklin (Which they needed to)
However I still think when it comes to raw individual ability and value to the team I would still go with my original selection and order.
I just think Hurley will be a better player than cloke and dawes by the end of his career. Just a more complete player.
I wont comment on the hawks players as I am prejudiced.
It most certainly is like another language and nobody has a clue which one it is you're speaking.
The fact is that you still conveniently ignore that you made up the crap about me suggesting that Cloke is superior to Franklin and proceeded to lambast me for it in order to somehow look like you had the upper hand. In the end, it's you who has managed to own yourself by looking every bit the whiney self important child who has had his favourite toy taken away.
It''s probably time to pull your head out of your arse and stop posting. You really are starting to embarrass yourself beyond repair.
Mate yes we have been making it up to wind you up further.
LOL.
You well took the bait too.
It was easy as your so one eyed... you are total Pirate.
this is you:
- Banned
- #257
The talent of Hawthorn's duo puts them ahead of the other free.
The Bombers' best set up might be Hurley and Gumbleton with Hille and Ryder floating forward.
Get on Naitanui, Lycett, Kennedy and Darling once WC's young midfielders develop.
Fremantle have a need for these four with Sandilands and Pavlich veterans.
The Bombers' best set up might be Hurley and Gumbleton with Hille and Ryder floating forward.
Get on Naitanui, Lycett, Kennedy and Darling once WC's young midfielders develop.
Fremantle have a need for these four with Sandilands and Pavlich veterans.
- Oct 18, 2010
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- #258
What is missed in the Dawes/Cloke V Roughead/Franklin debate is that Hawthorn's scoring ability ends at them. Dawes/Cloke are far more creative & bring others such as Blair, Didak, Krakouer & co into the game.
As one journo said today.
As one journo said today.
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Osborne averages less than a goal / game. He's kicked 14 & 16 goals in the last 2 years. Burgoyne played 17 games in 2010 and kicked 7 goals. Not great examples on your part.
Back to the books.
- Jun 23, 2008
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The stats I provided include all games played so far, so they are definitely all correct and up to date. I tracked them down and calculated them myself for the purpose of the post, not just copy/pasting them from another source.
Also, something else I've been wondering about - what are people's thoughts on Jarryd Roughead? Like Franklin, he's now in his 7th season, so he's beyond the young/developing stage (18-24 years of age) and is now in what should be his prime (24-29 years of age) at a footballer. People like Jason Dunstall have gone on record in the past (as recently as 2009) as saying Roughead could end up being "better than Buddy", but I just don't see it. He's obviously not a bad player, but IMO he's nothing more than simply "good", and I don't see him ever reaching Franklin's level of impact. I'm somewhat doubtful as to if there's any significant improvement left in Roughead at all. Is this as good as he'll get? And if so, are Hawthorn fans happy with that?
Burgoyne has played 4 games this year for 9 goals, to sit 10th on the goal kicking chart. Back to the books for you too
That journo being Mark Robinson, but why is his opinion worth more than any poster on BF?
- Oct 18, 2010
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Unlike the posters in this thread, he has no bias to Collingwood/Hawthorn.
Roughead was a good player but he is currently a shadow of his former self.
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Great post, not going to quote it all though.
Very happy so far with the output from those two. Will have a fairly solid forward line with the re-inclusion of LeCras and maybe an attacking type like Hams or Strijk rotating through off the bench.
As for the best duo, well Dawes and Cloke may have Franklin and Roughead slightly edged at the moment. This is mostly down to Roughy. May change though as the season progresses.
Turn it up.
Burgoyne has kicked 9, is in the top 10 for the coleman and playing more of a forward role this season. Would not surprised me if he kicked 30+.
Rioli and Osborne are both capable of hitting the score board and Hawthorn also have some very attacking young mids in their side this season.
What Hawthorn need is for Roughead to add a more defensive element to his game and Buddy to work on his tackling a little. Could lay a few but often gets frees against for a high tackle because of poor technique.
Outside of Buddy I would expect a more even spread and I am surprised you are quoting Mark Robinsons opinion as some authority.
In fact I think this is why you originally reffered to him as "one journo".
sr36
TheBrownDog
They undoubtedly have more chances, but it would also be fair to say that they have less space to work in, because the Pies crowd their forward line in order to lock the ball in. They don't get many easy kicks, with the majority of their possessions being contested. Nonetheless, like most, I'd take Franklin and just about anyone as the best forward duet, despite how highly I rate Cloke. Dawes is being a bit over hyped at this stage. Everyone seems to be suggesting that Dawes makes Cloke's life easier, which is probably true, but the reverse is true to a far greater extent.
no I am not 100% happy with Roughead.
His kicking has improved markedly this year...perhaps more than Cloke. He was on 7.2 prior to the weekend (From memory).
He has the potential and has had a 70 goal plus season in 2008.
Thus far as I believe a KPF number one duty is converting on the score board the hawk duo are in front over the course of the entire career of all concerned. As kpf are the main focus of attacks you will simply find due to far superior scoring ability the hawk duo are the prefered pair by most unbiased fans.
Mark Robinson is a plank for suggesting otherwise.
marks keep you in games. Goals win them.
Right now the pies duo are killing it, Agreed. but at the end of their careers and even the end of this season the hawk duo should be in front.
Simply put IMO cloke and dawes would be average in a poor team.
Franklin would still be a star and Roughead would be a star as the main focus at another club.
Cue: Franklin is at average club jibes from other posters
having said all that the pies duo look absolutely amazing at the moment.
Cloke is brave and kicking straight..who woulda thunk it
Some good posts here, but the stat discussions are largely pointless.
Essendon has played three of last year's top 5 and another from the eight in their four games. Confident that Ryder and Hurley will look a lot more impressive after round 9, once we get our games against GC, Bris, Rich and WC in.
Though really it should be Hurley/Crameri. Ryder is still playing a bit of ruck.
Essendon has played three of last year's top 5 and another from the eight in their four games. Confident that Ryder and Hurley will look a lot more impressive after round 9, once we get our games against GC, Bris, Rich and WC in.
Though really it should be Hurley/Crameri. Ryder is still playing a bit of ruck.
rofl. Yeah right.Mate yes we have been making it up to wind you up further.
LOL.
You well took the bait too.
It was easy as your so one eyed... you are total Pirate.
this is you:
Owned!
very possible but with Winderlich out alot of that awesome outside speed and great delivery will be gone.
Licker like Clint young is the red haired step child that doesnt always get the love he should.
Reimers has potential as a fwd but is no replacement for lickers mid field drive and line breaking.
all this makes it alot harder for hurley and pals.
rofl. Yeah right.
no issue mate
Look forward to the two clubs meeting in round 15 is it??
I am sure dawes and cloke will tear our undersized defence apart :*(
They wont need to hit anyone to do it either!!
dawes out for anzac day= sad joke!! hope he gets off.
Hawks looked after eagles with the right medical report that says nothing...hope u get the same.
Yeah it is round 15 and I'm looking forward to it too. It sucks that Dawes was even cited for that fairy touch but then who the hell is ever going to understand how the MRP works. It's mind boggling. Hopefully common sense will prevail and it will be thrown out at the tribunal.no issue mate
Look forward to the two clubs meeting in round 15 is it??
I am sure dawes and cloke will tear our undersized defence apart :*(
They wont need to hit anyone to do it either!!
dawes out for anzac day= sad joke!! hope he gets off.
Hawks looked after eagles with the right medical report that says nothing...hope u get the same.
yeah the mind does boggle you cant apply any sense to to the MRP...makes less sense than the old system which was ad hoc.
Basically cheats all us fans of seeing him play for no reason other than to appease tv networks for a more family orientated experience??
I think we have just lost the plot if Dawes gets put out.
Dont like his chances however with the rioli love tap.
I don't either. If the tribunal applies common sense to this charge the MRP will be left with serious egg on their faces not to mention some fairly telling questions to answer. That's just not likely to happen but as I've said elsewhere, it's time someone stood up and took a stand against these ridiculous decisions. They make the game look so amateurish when they are so inconsistent.
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