Opinion Is father-son access going to heavily dictate the next decade of premiers?

[iameviljez]

That’s my point. I don’t know that I even support the draft in principal full stop.

The immediate comparison when this topic gets brought up ALWAYS gets brought back to the EPL where the same teams have dominated for 100 years either in the EPL or division 1 before it.

But it’s not the same thing, really.

The better comparison is the NRL.

And right at this exactly moment it’s probably not a great one because only 3 teams regardless of Sunday’s grand final outcome will have won the last 7 premierships.

But every team in the competition has made a grand final in the last 20 years aside from the Knight, Titans and the Dolphins - the latter of which only just joined the competition and the Titans who have only joined in that time, and who have made a prelim in that time. The Knights have been pretty regular finalists.

The Cowboys, Broncos, Tigers, Bunnies, Dragons, Eagles, Roosters, Panthers, Storm, Sharks have all won comps in that time, the Raiders and Eels have come close in GFs, the Dogs have made a GF and so too the Warriors.

They don’t have a draft.

The current Penrith team is, to me, the best team since St George won 11 comps in a row, and that side played under rugby union rules, where there were unlimited tackles so the entire concept of the game was completely different so this team is something else altogether and they’ve done it not because of the recruiting constraints but in spite of them. They have lost Matt Burton (rep player), Steven Crichton (rep player), Api Koroisau (rep player), Spencer Leniu (rep player), Villiame Kikau (rep player) - and that’s just the top tier players they’ve lost from their premiership teams, there’s others as well, and they’re still about to play their fifth straight grand final. They’re about to lose two more internationals as well in Jarome Luai and James Fisher-Harris.

It’s not from recruiting other players, it’s just sustained excellence at development and bringing players through their own system and looking in other catchment areas.

Regardless, the fact is that they built that all without a draft, they just developed it.

The Roosters are often derided as having a bottomless checkbook but they don’t have a junior goldmine like Penrith but have continually found 17-18 year olds from all over the place: western Sydney, the central coast, Queensland, the pacific islands, New Zealand, and while they do raid the odd team for a gun player, they too have put together a gun side for much of that time without the need for a draft.

Melbourne have made an art form out of using bits and pieces players from elsewhere that aren’t used properly combined with talent ID programs in Queensland.

All around that, teams have their junior clubs that they develop through and they all have talent scouts all over the place bringing players into their Harold Matts and SG Ball sides.

Just because American sports have drafts, and the biggest world sports outside of there don’t, doesn’t mean it is the inherently perfect model to go off.

The difference between the NRL and the AFL being that AFL clubs have stupid money to throw around, and the wealth disparity between West Coast and, say, Norf, is enormous.

If it weren't for the draft, the poor clubs and the expansion clubs would be screwed. Absolutely stuffed.

 

[iameviljez]

Should be 300 to be honest. Exclusive club.

I'm surprised you didn't say 318 games

 

[PhatBoy]

When GFC turn shit we’ll see how you really feel.

I know how I feel. I’ve seen my team win a wooden spoon in the NRL. I saw how they got out of it.

We made the grand final the next year.

 

[PhatBoy]

The difference between the NRL and the AFL being that AFL clubs have stupid money to throw around, and the wealth disparity between West Coast and, say, Norf, is enormous.

If it weren't for the draft, the poor clubs and the expansion clubs would be screwed. Absolutely stuffed.

I understand it’s not an entirely like for like comparison so it’s never going to be exactly the same but the fact is that there is a ‘reward’ for mediocrity is already an inequality.

The salary cap to some extent mitigates the advantages of the rich clubs: what we have seen in the NRL a lot over the years isn’t so much a case of the poorer clubs not being able to sign good players because their facilities are bad or wherever, it’s that they don’t spend their money smartly and offer dumb contracts or they make dumb decisions with who to retain and who to let go.

The Tigers found themselves in a quandary a few years ago with four of their best players coming off contract at the same time - Tedesco, Woods, Brooks and Moses.

Eventually they kept Luke Brooks: who knows, maybe they wouldn’t have been able to do it but they should have thrown everything they had at James Tedesco because of the quartet he has been easily the best footballer and so much better than Brooks it’s not funny: within 2 years of leaving he’d helped the Roosters to 2 titles and spent the next five years as the best fullback on the planet meanwhile the Tigers have been the worst team in the comp ever since.

 

[iameviljez]

I understand it’s not an entirely like for like comparison so it’s never going to be exactly the same but the fact is that there is a ‘reward’ for mediocrity is already an inequality.

Yes, it is an inequality. It's the price we pay for having a relatively competitive and equal competition - which isn't necessarily for the clubs, but it's better for the fans, IMO.

 

[Mat Mann]

Sure, take Josh Daicos off the list for Collingwood for that season. Still leaves Nick, Moore and Quaynor.

My point is that this stuff doesn't detract from the flag - Pies built a list within the rules and won.

its funny how in 1 thread we have people championing F/S and the benefits it creates and in another thread, bemoaning the same rules that netted St Klida a compensation pick for losing a player because it screws up the draft.

Bisbane gets pick 2 12 and 1to3 for finishing 6th 2nd and 1st
meanwhile my club in those same drafts finished well below and gets
pick 10, 18 and 7 for finishing 10th 7th and 12th

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

.... but I still think it's great that guys like Daicos, Ashcroft, Darcy etc get to shine in their dad's club's colours.

I, for the life of me, cannot understand why this matters one bit.

I just don't see how Nick Daicos playing for Collingwood versus Nick Daicos playing for North makes any difference to anything - aside of course from helping a team on-field.

It mattered zilch to me whether Gary Ablett Jnr played for Geelong or Gold Coast - I just like watching him play.

But each to their own that point.

 

[iameviljez]

I, for the life of me, cannot understand why this matters one bit.

I just don't see how Nick Daicos playing for Collingwood versus Nick Daicos playing for North makes any difference to anything - aside of course from helping a team on-field.

It mattered zilch to me whether Gary Ablett Jnr played for Geelong or Gold Coast - I just like watching him play.

But each to their own that point.

I hope this doesn’t come across disrespectfully, but you do follow a club that isn’t old enough to have that kind of heritage or that kind of experience of nostalgia and decades of belonging yet.

I grew up with Riccardi, Brownless and Bews as footy heroes as a kid. It does create a stronger connection when their kids come through.

Something about Ablett playing for GC just felt so wrong to me, in a way that it wouldn’t if it were Selwood or Dangerfield.

 

[Pomsta]

I swear people have forgotten one of the original aims of the academies was to introduce pathways into AFL programs to kids that would otherwise go to other sports. Its not just literally to feed high end elite talent into specific clubs, and even then we have had plenty of academy plays either not drafted by us but play AFL elsewhere, or academy players traded/FA away.

Its a system that does, overall, net benefit the entire competition but people get fixated on one or two really good players that happen to get to their respective clubs.

No one would be as upset about this if someone like Heeney took a massive offer from a Melbourne club at 26 years old.

The major issue I have is for blokes like Blakey. If we are going to have father-son then this should take precedence over any Academy picks. Do you think that Blakey would not be playing football if it wasn't for the Swans Academy? If you are a F/S then this should be the only consideration. If you don't want to go to your father's team then you must go into the open draft.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Yes, it is an inequality. It's the price we pay for having a relatively competitive and equal competition - which isn't necessarily for the clubs, but it's better for the fans, IMO.

That's the key point that comments such as 'the Draft rewards mediocrity' fail to get.

The AFL isn't a competition per se - it's a business. They're selling a product.

It's 100% about maintaining the interest of as many people as possible.

AFL clubs are no financially viable in isolation. They're only viable when part of large competition.

Without 'rewarding mediocrity' the struggling clubs would fold. And once they fold, the big clubs would soon follow as the revenue simply would no longer be there.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I hope this doesn’t come across disrespectfully, but you do follow a club that isn’t old enough to have that kind of heritage or that kind of experience of nostalgia and decades of belonging yet.

I grew up with Riccardi, Brownless and Bews as footy heroes as a kid. It does create a stronger connection when their kids come through.

Something about Ablett playing for GC just felt so wrong to me, in a way that it wouldn’t if it were Selwood or Dangerfield.

I don't follow a specific club.


Regarding the rest of your post....It felt wrong to me that Geelong didn't win the flag in 1989. It felt wrong to me that St Kilda didn't win the flag in 2009.
It felt wrong to me that Greg Williams didn't win the Brownlow in 1993 or whenever it was that Wanganeen won it.

But the thought that the AFL would introduce rules to appease my notions of romance is just utterly unthinkable for a professional sporting code.

 

[PhatBoy]

That's the key point that comments such as 'the Draft rewards mediocrity' fail to get.

The AFL isn't a competition per se - it's a business. They're selling a product.

It's 100% about maintaining the interest of as many people as possible.

AFL clubs are no financially viable in isolation. They're only viable when part of large competition.

Without 'rewarding mediocrity' the struggling clubs would fold. And once they fold, the big clubs would soon follow as the revenue simply would no longer be there.

Would they?

As it stands, clubs who are struggling sit around on their hands - to some degree anyway (obviously they do their scouting reports, I’m not silly enough to think they don’t) - waiting to see where they are going to sit in the draft, checking out academy picks and how they will impact on draft order, and more or less being unable to plan more than 1, 2 years ahead at the most.

Without a draft - and by the way I am not advocating for the abolition of the draft I’m just talking about what an alternative reality looks like - those clubs can go out and actually find kids that might not be ready for AFL football but get them into their programs beforehand and bring them through their own systems well ahead of time, without having to rely on almost pure luck in some cases to get what they need in order to drag themselves out of the mire.

 

[iameviljez]

Would they?

As it stands, clubs who are struggling sit around on their hands - to some degree anyway (obviously they do their scouting reports, I’m not silly enough to think they don’t) - waiting to see where they are going to sit in the draft, checking out academy picks and how they will impact on draft order, and more or less being unable to plan more than 1, 2 years ahead at the most.

Without a draft - and by the way I am not advocating for the abolition of the draft I’m just talking about what an alternative reality looks like - those clubs can go out and actually find kids that might not be ready for AFL football but get them into their programs beforehand and bring them through their own systems well ahead of time, without having to rely on almost pure luck in some cases to get what they need in order to drag themselves out of the mire.

Following the 80s, half the clubs almost went bust. It’s overly simplistic to just put this down to the lack of competitiveness in the VFL, but it was a factor.

 

[danster168]

the last 2 flags have been Father-son flags.

 

[iameviljez]

the last 2 flags have been Father-son flags.

Bahaha, the idea that one single player defines the team is ridiculous.

It’s a smart trading flag before it’s a f/s flag.

 

[danster168]

Bahaha, the idea that one single player defines the team is ridiculous.

It’s a smart trading flag before it’s a f/s flag.

a single player? There was more than 1 player mate. Collingwood had about 5, Brisbane had 2 including the Norm Smith medallist.

 

[PhatBoy]

Following the 80s, half the clubs almost went bust. It’s overly simplistic to just put this down to the lack of competitiveness in the VFL, but it was a factor.

Absolutely, and I think lessons learned from that era and better professionalism would to some degree prevent that from happening. The same thing happened in league - Newtown disappeared, Super League saw Norths absorbed and ultimately disappear along with Balmain and Wests and Illawarra realistically and all of them probably would have survived with better results, however those may have been achieved.

Again, not saying it shouldn’t exist just that I don’t think it’s a perfect system in and of itself anyway so complaining about aspects like father-son when the very core of the system as it exists is flawed seems like a redundant argument

 

[iameviljez]

a single player? There was more than 1 player mate. Collingwood had about 5, Brisbane had 2 including the Norm Smith medallist.

Oh, I forgot about Jaspa Fletcher.

Anyway, the trade ins of Daniher, Neale, Dunkley, Cameron, Ah Chee, Fort and McKenna had a vastly bigger effect.

 

[fnerd]

We would have had to tanked entirely the last few seasons to make sure we had a chance get him.

Are you for real?

Again…sorry i must of missed where Brisbane and the bulldogs, Collingwood etc were banned from trading up in a draft?

There is all sorts of mechanism already in place for club and f/s prospects to be “reunited”

Heard of thing called free agency?

Stop with the cope , seriously ,trying to pretend f/s is anything but a ****en unfair competitive advantage for teams who set to benefit from it is nauseating

And FYI if changing the rules means no Pav or Fyfe jr’s come gift wrapped to my club then I couldn’t care less if it meant they change the rules and EVERY team has loses access aswell

As a supporter of a northern side who’s constantly being spoon fed AFL endorsed rhetoric that their club is some sort of leper organisation and desperately needs help lol)after you’ve just won a flag , played off in 2nd successive GF and in your 6th consecutive finals series and now are able to have acces to arguably the best kid in the draft 2 /3 years running , plus another couple first rounders on top! via giving up a few mid second rounders I don’t expect you to “get it”

Privlage is often blind to those who have it

 

[fnerd]

Give it 30 more years. Freo will have a history and you can enjoy watching the next Pavlich running around.

IDGAF
Again making things up in the hope it strengthens your argument .

I hope they change the rules tomorrow and every club loses access.

And again if Pav jr available we can wait for it , your minds about to be blown here ……we can draft /trade for him!!!

Amazing isn’t it?, I wonder if I’ll get the same recognition as the likes Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison of civilisations great innovators for solving one of the worlds greatest mysterys and that being ,how could father sons possibly ever play for their daddy’s club if the AFL heinously removed the f/s rule!!???

 

[GC2015]

I think clubs have realised how much of a free hit the father son is and are now pumping so much time/development into potential father sons than they ever have been. This could be a reason why we are having so many highly rated father sons lately.

That's exactly what is going on. As the AFL has continued to open access for clubs to integrate their father-son prospects into an AFL environment, we've seen more and more F/S players being drafted with high end picks. Here is an article explaining that Will Ashcroft and Jaspa Fletcher were training with the Lions in 2021 (a year before they were draft eligible) and I think they both played several games for the Brisbane VFL team in their draft year before both being drafted with top 12 picks.

I believe Nick Daicos also trained with Collingwood in his bottom age year and obviously became the a top 4 prospect the next year (most believe he was actually the best prospect in that draft). Levi Ashcroft travelled to Brisbane to get involved with training at the Lions even earlier before his bottom age year and played for their VFL side this year. Now he's clearly the best player available in this draft class. Collingwood will also have a similar scenario playing out next year with Thomas McGuane. Brisbane have taken their father-son access very seriously over the last decade or so as evidenced by this 2018 picture that happens to include a 16 year old Nick Blakey on the far right:

There's nothing stopping other clubs from replicating this model (except for GC & GWS). Obviously there is a luck element that comes with the father-son rule, but access to high level coaching/training/facilities is also a big factor in the development of juniors. Do it right and you can turn an average junior into a good junior, as well as a good junior into an exceptional one. As we've seen with the NGA academies in the past, if you put the right amount of resources towards a developmental program, then you'll eventually reap the rewards and it's pretty obvious that both Brisbane & Collingwood have put in the hard work when it comes to their F/S programs.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Would they?

As it stands, clubs who are struggling sit around on their hands - to some degree anyway (obviously they do their scouting reports, I’m not silly enough to think they don’t) - waiting to see where they are going to sit in the draft, checking out academy picks and how they will impact on draft order, and more or less being unable to plan more than 1, 2 years ahead at the most.

Without a draft - and by the way I am not advocating for the abolition of the draft I’m just talking about what an alternative reality looks like - those clubs can go out and actually find kids that might not be ready for AFL football but get them into their programs beforehand and bring them through their own systems well ahead of time, without having to rely on almost pure luck in some cases to get what they need in order to drag themselves out of the mire.

So the clubs with more resources get all the best kids?

Whether that's a good model or not is open for debate - but regardless, it's precisely what the AFL decided NOT to do.

They decided this so they could continue to stack the fixture to commercially maximise the customer bases of the big clubs - whilst not allowing the huge financial advantage given to the big clubs to be used to gain on-field advantage.

The whole concept is designed to keep it even and fair in regards to access to the best players.

Then they go and have a Father-Son rule that makes a mockery of the whole thing.

That's exactly what is going on. As the AFL has continued to open access for clubs to integrate their father-son prospects into an AFL environment, we've seen more and more F/S players being drafted with high end picks. Here is an article explaining that Will Ashcroft and Jaspa Fletcher were training with the Lions in 2021 (a year before they were draft eligible) and I think they both played several games for the Brisbane VFL team in their draft year before both being drafted with top 12 picks.

I believe Nick Daicos also trained with Collingwood in his bottom age year and obviously became the a top 4 prospect the next year (most believe he was actually the best prospect in that draft). Levi Ashcroft travelled to Brisbane to get involved with training at the Lions even earlier before his bottom age year and played for their VFL side this year. Now he's clearly the best player available in this draft class. Collingwood will also have a similar scenario playing out next year with Thomas McGuane. Brisbane have taken their father-son access very seriously over the last decade or so as evidenced by this 2018 picture that happens to include a 16 year old Nick Blakey on the far right:

There's nothing stopping other clubs from replicating this model (except for GC & GWS). Obviously there is a luck element that comes with the father-son rule, but access to high level coaching/training/facilities is also a big factor in the development of juniors. Do it right and you can turn an average junior into a good junior, as well as a good junior into an exceptional one. As we've seen with the NGA academies in the past, if you put the right amount of resources towards a developmental program, then you'll eventually reap the rewards and it's pretty obvious that both Brisbane & Collingwood have put in the hard work when it comes to their F/S programs.

Why should one young player get to choose which club they go to, whilst everyone else doesn't?

 

[OniAu]

F/S access is far less probable to have a great player than a top 5 draft pick.

Imagine complaining about a small percentage of a chance a kid from two people having a root is going to be great and disable other clubs in 20 years by his greatness.

So many piss ant clubs who have had multiple access to top 10 draft picks complaining, hilarious

Whats to stop the kids from not returning to their dads club after their initial contract anyway

 

[PhatBoy]

So the clubs with more resources get all the best kids?

Whether that's a good model or not is open for debate - but regardless, it's precisely what the AFL decided NOT to do.

They decided this so they could continue to stack the fixture to commercially maximise the customer bases of the big clubs - whilst not allowing the huge financial advantage given to the big clubs to be used to gain on-field advantage.

The whole concept is designed to keep it even and fair in regards to access to the best players.

Then they go and have a Father-Son rule that makes a mockery of the whole thing.



Why should one young player get to choose which club they go to, whilst everyone else doesn't?

How do the clubs with the best resources get the best kids under that model?

It’s repetitive from me because I follow it but to give you an easy example from league, Penrith - ignoring their huge junior base which admittedly gives them a huge pool of players to look at to begin with - realised that there was an entire state that was untapped because teams in Sydney were waiting for players from the country to come to Sydney or to be spotted at carnivals etc before getting picked up. So they set up a far west academy 10 years ago and tonight two of those players will run out for them in a grand final and one of them will lift the trophy for them if they win.

There’s nothing stopping any club doing the same thing. The Roosters have since done the same thing on the central coast. Other clubs have done similar things.

Your last sentence in itself is a funny thing: why does any grown adult not get to choose where they go to be a professional? We see this as normal and accept it as normal because it’s the system we’ve had in place for three and a half decades that if you want to be a professional footballer, you say ‘this is what I want to do’ and then you don’t have a choice as to where you do it. There are a couple of jobs where that happens but for the most part it’s fairly unique in itself to not have that autonomy in a profession.

 

[fnerd]

F/S access is far less probable to have a great player than a top 5 draft pick.

Imagine complaining about a small percentage of a chance a kid from two people having a root is going to be great and disable other clubs in 20 years by his greatness.

So many piss ant clubs who have had multiple access to top 10 draft picks complaining, hilarious

Whats to stop the kids from not returning to their dads club after their initial contract anyway

You know argument actually supports why it should be scrapped rather than retained?