Opinion Is father-son access going to heavily dictate the next decade of premiers?

[Lavender Bushranger]

How do the clubs with the best resources get the best kids under that model?

It’s repetitive from me because I follow it but to give you an easy example from league, Penrith - ignoring their huge junior base which admittedly gives them a huge pool of players to look at to begin with - realised that there was an entire state that was untapped because teams in Sydney were waiting for players from the country to come to Sydney or to be spotted at carnivals etc before getting picked up. So they set up a far west academy 10 years ago and tonight two of those players will run out for them in a grand final and one of them will lift the trophy for them if they win.

There’s nothing stopping any club doing the same thing. The Roosters have since done the same thing on the central coast. Other clubs have done similar things.

You answered your own question.

For years, St Kilda had one recruiting guy. John Beveridge had to pretty much do it all himself. He drove to as many games as he could to identify talent.

Bigger clubs had teams of these guys. They could attend dozens of games each week all across the country to find kids. Clubs with the money and resources would send guys out all over the place to film games so they could identify kids in all sorts of obscure places.

St Kilda didn't. They couldn't afford it. They had one guy and his station wagon.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Your last sentence in itself is a funny thing: why does any grown adult not get to choose where they go to be a professional? We see this as normal and accept it as normal because it’s the system we’ve had in place for three and a half decades that if you want to be a professional footballer, you say ‘this is what I want to do’ and then you don’t have a choice as to where you do it. There are a couple of jobs where that happens but for the most part it’s fairly unique in itself to not have that autonomy in a profession.

Not sure what you're talking about here? It's the AFL rule. Draftees DO NOT get to choose where they go.

Unless your dad played somewhere, then you do. It's an extraordinary disadvantage to kids that didn't have a father at at AFL level.

It's grossly unfair to those kids.

 

[WilloTree]

We would have had to tanked entirely the last few seasons to make sure we had a chance get him.

Did you forget you can trade picks?

 

[GC2015]

Why should one young player get to choose which club they go to, whilst everyone else doesn't?

The historical reasoning is thought to have been sympathy - the Dees successfully lobbied to bypass the zone rules in place at the time and recruit Ron Barassi Jr due to his father, Ron Barassi Sr, being killed during WWII. Had they not succeeded in their lobbying, Barassi Jr would have been zoned to either Carlton or Collingwood.

These days it appears to have been retained for the romanticism that comes with multiple generations playing for the same club. Doesn't benefit my club so you're preaching to the choir here.

F/S access is far less probable to have a great player than a top 5 draft pick.

Unless the F/S prospect is a top 5 pick. There have been 3 of them in the last 3 drafts and we're about to see a 4th this year with Levi Ashcroft.

 

[OniAu]

The historical reasoning is thought to have been sympathy - the Dees successfully lobbied to bypass the zone rules in place at the time and recruit Ron Barassi Jr due to his father, Ron Barassi Sr, being killed during WWII. Had they not succeeded in their lobbying, Barassi Jr would have been zoned to either Carlton or Collingwood.

These days it appears to have been retained for the romanticism that comes with multiple generations playing for the same club. Doesn't benefit my club so you're preaching to the choir here.

Unless the F/S prospect is a top 5 pick. There have been 3 of them in the last 3 drafts and we're about to see a 4th this year with Levi Ashcroft.

How many havent ?

 

[GC2015]

How many havent ?

Why would that matter? If Sydney get academy access to Isaac Heeney and 50 other players don't get drafted from their academy cohort that year, does that make it less advantageous for the Swans to have access to Heeney? Surely access to top end talent is what people actually care about when it comes to these rules. Like it or not, the F/S rule has been producing many top 5 picks in recent years and that's why it's being questioned.

 

[Dazb86]

IDGAF
Again making things up in the hope it strengthens your argument .

I hope they change the rules tomorrow and every club loses access.

And again if Pav jr available we can wait for it , your minds about to be blown here ……we can draft /trade for him!!!

Amazing isn’t it?, I wonder if I’ll get the same recognition as the likes Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison of civilisations great innovators for solving one of the worlds greatest mysterys and that being ,how could father sons possibly ever play for their daddy’s club if the AFL heinously removed the f/s rule!!???

Have an advil my man.

 

[CrowToon]

Aside from it being 'unique' I've yet to hear one convincing argument that suggests Father-Son is a good thing.

 

[Anja_Nees]

I think the current system which sees clubs have their draft hand pillaged if they get a highly rated father son is fine. Was a bit ridiculous when top ten talent was going in their third round.

We need some romance in the game. It’s one of the few, diminishing links a lot of clubs have to the past.

Obviously some clubs do better than others and we are a recent beneficiary. No one was really complaining when we had to take Ayce Cordy

Ayce Cordy

Age

34

Ht

204cm

Wt

99kg

Pos.

F/R

Career

Season

Last 5

D

8.0

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

4.3

3star

M

2.5

3star

T

2.4

4star

G

0.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.0

3star

K

3.0

1star

HB

6.0

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.2

3star

with a first rounder though. Should even out in the long term.

 

[The Punter]

No one was really complaining when we had to take Ayce Cordy with a first rounder though. Should even out in the long term.

Or you could have not taken him. There was no "had to take" - the Doggies made a choice.

In 2016 when the Doggies won the premiership, the romance was at 100%. If Lachie Hunter had been Lachie Williams, the romance would still have been at 100%. The romance thing is just something trotted out by those who barrack for clubs lucky enough to have past players who due to an accident are good at siring sons. It borders on comical.

 

[Obeanie1]

That’s my point. I don’t know that I even support the draft in principal full stop.

The immediate comparison when this topic gets brought up ALWAYS gets brought back to the EPL where the same teams have dominated for 100 years either in the EPL or division 1 before it.

But it’s not the same thing, really.

The better comparison is the NRL.

And right at this exactly moment it’s probably not a great one because only 3 teams regardless of Sunday’s grand final outcome will have won the last 7 premierships.

But every team in the competition has made a grand final in the last 20 years aside from the Knight, Titans and the Dolphins - the latter of which only just joined the competition and the Titans who have only joined in that time, and who have made a prelim in that time. The Knights have been pretty regular finalists.

The Cowboys, Broncos, Tigers, Bunnies, Dragons, Eagles, Roosters, Panthers, Storm, Sharks have all won comps in that time, the Raiders and Eels have come close in GFs, the Dogs have made a GF and so too the Warriors.

They don’t have a draft.

The current Penrith team is, to me, the best team since St George won 11 comps in a row, and that side played under rugby union rules, where there were unlimited tackles so the entire concept of the game was completely different so this team is something else altogether and they’ve done it not because of the recruiting constraints but in spite of them. They have lost Matt Burton (rep player), Steven Crichton (rep player), Api Koroisau (rep player), Spencer Leniu (rep player), Villiame Kikau (rep player) - and that’s just the top tier players they’ve lost from their premiership teams, there’s others as well, and they’re still about to play their fifth straight grand final. They’re about to lose two more internationals as well in Jarome Luai and James Fisher-Harris.

It’s not from recruiting other players, it’s just sustained excellence at development and bringing players through their own system and looking in other catchment areas.

Regardless, the fact is that they built that all without a draft, they just developed it.

The Roosters are often derided as having a bottomless checkbook but they don’t have a junior goldmine like Penrith but have continually found 17-18 year olds from all over the place: western Sydney, the central coast, Queensland, the pacific islands, New Zealand, and while they do raid the odd team for a gun player, they too have put together a gun side for much of that time without the need for a draft.

Melbourne have made an art form out of using bits and pieces players from elsewhere that aren’t used properly combined with talent ID programs in Queensland.

All around that, teams have their junior clubs that they develop through and they all have talent scouts all over the place bringing players into their Harold Matts and SG Ball sides.

Just because American sports have drafts, and the biggest world sports outside of there don’t, doesn’t mean it is the inherently perfect model to go off.

There will always be an AFL draft.

The trade and draft periods are literally an industry that employs hundreds of people and generates millions in revenue for the AFL. The media love it as it provides content to comment and discuss post season.

Does the NRL have this coverage post grand final? Not even close.

Its currently a diabolical sham and side show to sell clicks. That is what it has turned into.

 

[PhatBoy]

There will always be an AFL draft.

The trade and draft periods are literally an industry that employs hundreds of people and generates millions in revenue for the AFL. The media love it as it provides content to comment and discuss post season.

Does the NRL have this coverage post grand final? Not even close.

Its currently a diabolical sham and side show to sell clicks. That is what it has turned into.

Absolutely it’s a mini-industry in and of itself which is a great point and as you say it will never be gotten rid of. And I’m not saying it should as such I just don’t really agree with the fundamental principle of it.

 

[The Punter]

Absolutely it’s a mini-industry in and of itself which is a great point and as you say it will never be gotten rid of. And I’m not saying it should as such I just don’t really agree with the fundamental principle of it.

Which principle do you not agree with? The redistributive part of the "players go where they are drafted" part?

 

[PhatBoy]

Which principle do you not agree with? The redistributive part of the "players go where they are drafted" part?

Literally giving players to teams as a consequence of their own ineptitude and creating almost a false economy of sorts off the field

 

[iameviljez]

Unless the F/S prospect is a top 5 pick. There have been 3 of them in the last 3 drafts and we're about to see a 4th this year with Levi Ashcroft.

The major advantage of both the Academies and the Father-Son system is that clubs get untrammeled access to a player before they are drafted, and hence can give them support prior to drafting - hence there's an argument, IMO, that F/S players do tend to excel.

For the record, I don't have an issue with either. I do wish they'd remove the discount though

 

[Cmarsh]

There will always be an AFL draft.

The trade and draft periods are literally an industry that employs hundreds of people and generates millions in revenue for the AFL. The media love it as it provides content to comment and discuss post season.

Does the NRL have this coverage post grand final? Not even close.

Its currently a diabolical sham and side show to sell clicks. That is what it has turned into.

The NRL have the Pacific Championships about to start ,i.e. actual matches starring the best players.

 

[The Punter]

Literally giving players to teams as a consequence of their own ineptitude and creating almost a false economy of sorts off the field

S.C. Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer Compares Helping Poor to Feeding Stray Animals

Republican Gubernatorial Candidate Later Says "Maybe the Stray Animals Wasn't the Best Metaphor"

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Anja_Nees]

Or you could have not taken him. There was no "had to take" - the Doggies made a choice.

Of course we had the option not to take him. If we wanted him that’s what we had to give.

It didn’t work out and we torched a first rounder.

My point was to compare it to the farcical situation before when players like Hawkins were going in the third round. I understood the issue with that.

These days if a club is lucky enough to get a Darcy or a Daicos their draft hand gets plundered. It’s not free.

There might not be any Saints father sons right now but you can be certain they will come up. If Riewoldt turns out a bunch of elite KPP bookends I can’t imagine you’d be thrilled to see them running around for GC and Port or something.

 

[PhatBoy]

S.C. Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer Compares Helping Poor to Feeding Stray Animals

Republican Gubernatorial Candidate Later Says "Maybe the Stray Animals Wasn't the Best Metaphor"

www.cbsnews.com

Sorry but this is professional sport in a billion dollar industry where kids recruited by any club the right way will always pursue their dream of playing if they are sold it the right way. Not feeding the poor. That’s garbage .

 

[The Punter]

Sorry but this is professional sport in a billion dollar industry where kids recruited by any club the right way will always pursue their dream of playing if they are sold it the right way. Not feeding the poor. That’s garbage .

Then you can have a ten team league then. Less money for everyone.

If you have perpetually poor teams you lose fans. Ask Fitzroy supporters.

Meanwhile I am getting excellent value for money for all the taxes I have contributed to Geelong's stadium. Perhaps we need a pork barrel draft too.

Richmond won three flags in four years and are the bottom team two years after making finals. You can just tell they are last only due to incompetence.

Professional sportspeople get paid because they want to win. The deliberate incompetence meme is a red herring, and if it isn't deliberate there are no grounds for punishment. The league is more inequitable than at any stage this century, and the father-son rule adds to that inequity, which will so ably be demonstrated when the premier team acquire the best player available in the draft next month at no cost and with no compensation being provided to the bottom team.

 

[The Punter]

Of course we had the option not to take him. If we wanted him that’s what we had to give.

It didn’t work out and we torched a first rounder.

My point was to compare it to the farcical situation before when players like Hawkins were going in the third round. I understood the issue with that.

These days if a club is lucky enough to get a Darcy or a Daicos their draft hand gets plundered. It’s not free.

There might not be any Saints father sons right now but you can be certain they will come up. If Riewoldt turns out a bunch of elite KPP bookends I can’t imagine you’d be thrilled to see them running around for GC and Port or something.

Things are better than before. They are still broken.

Plundered? Spare me. Their draft hands are improved through the acquisition of a F-S, because they get a Darcy or a Daicos.

I don't care what the Riewoldt boys do with their careers. I wish them every success. I will support St Kilda with the same enthusiasm regardless and enjoy any St Kilda premiership with the same level of joy. But that premiership will be made more likely because the system would be fairer without the father-son rule.

 

[PhatBoy]

Then you can have a ten team league then. Less money for everyone.

If you have perpetually poor teams you lose fans. Ask Fitzroy supporters.

Meanwhile I am getting excellent value for money for all the taxes I have contributed to Geelong's stadium. Perhaps we need a pork barrel draft too.

Richmond won three flags in four years and are the bottom team two years after making finals. You can just tell they are last only due to incompetence.

Professional sportspeople get paid because they want to win. The deliberate incompetence meme is a red herring, and if it isn't deliberate there are no grounds for punishment. The league is more inequitable than at any stage this century, and the father-son rule adds to that inequity, which will so ably be demonstrated when the premier team acquire the best player available in the draft next month at no cost and with no compensation being provided to the bottom team.

Prior to the 2019 season there were two major professional leagues in Australia.

One of them had 0 teams win back to back titles in a unified competition in 26 years.

The other had 2 three-peat sides, another side win 3 in 4, (or were about to), another won 3-in-5 and won 52 out of 55 games during that run, another won back to back flags.

Which comp had a draft and which didn’t?

Again, for the 500th time I’m not advocating getting rid of it I’m saying I don’t fundamentally agree with the principle in a competition of artificially levelling the playing field beyond a salary cap.

 

[Sirlemsip]

Nobody complains about a Finn Maginness going at pick 29, or even Will McCabe going at pick 19.

If Cooper Hodge is good enough to go in the top 5 of the draft, and Hawthorn finish up the top of the ladder that year, people will kick up a stink if we can get him for basically nothing.

Personally, I like parts of the father-son rule. It definitely needs some tweaking though.
For example, you need to use a pick either:

• from the same round as the one where the bid is made; or
• within 10 picks as where the bid is made (this is so that if the 2nd last pick of round 1 is used, you can match with a round 2 pick).

This bullcrap of clubs stocking up on round 2 and round 3 picks to match 'points' for a player bid on at pick 4 of the draft is just stupid.

 

[marcus1232]

You answered your own question.

For years, St Kilda had one recruiting guy. John Beveridge had to pretty much do it all himself. He drove to as many games as he could to identify talent.

Bigger clubs had teams of these guys. They could attend dozens of games each week all across the country to find kids. Clubs with the money and resources would send guys out all over the place to film games so they could identify kids in all sorts of obscure places.

St Kilda didn't. They couldn't afford it. They had one guy and his station wagon.

Was a gun too could only imagine what he could of achieved if he had the resources

 

[Obeanie1]

The NRL have the Pacific Championships about to start ,i.e. actual matches starring the best players.

I'm not an NRL fan so not really across their off season.