Opinion Is the 2015 Collingwood list better than the 2014 Collingwood list?

[Temploar]

There are probably better pairings, but it's a start ...

Lynch <> Moore
Clarke <> Goodyear
Beams <> Greenwood
Maxwell <> Maynard
Yagmoor <> Abbott
Mooney <> Manteit
Hudson <> Cox
H <> Varcoe
Ball <> De Goey

They are only comparisons I assume? Not like for likes? (Moore is obviously already better than Lynch was for us, though )

I think 2015 we have more scope for improvement than this year, however the 2014 team would beat the 2015 team on sheer experience alone.
But, who knows. The young boys could come out with a huge fire in their bellies next year. I am looking forward to what approach we take.

 

[FromDaics2Dids]

YES

 

[FromDaics2Dids]

We are stockpiling, I want to win 4-6 games max this year.
Get a couple more first rounders again, and seriously get Cameron.
2016/2017 thats when we peak

 

[Vicky Park]

Beams is our biggest loss, a huge difference between 2014 and 2015. Will also miss Maxy, but he cant have been part of our planning for 2015. Will miss Lumumba too, but as with Daisy before him, we'd probably seen the best of H.

That's not the case with Beams.

So to cover for him, we have recruited some experience into the club, and drafted several big bodied 'Beams' types. I think that indicates our concern with losing him. We went searching for another.

Will we be ok? In the long run, yes. Not sure if that includes 2015.

 

[Scodog10]

2014 without a doubt!

I've loved our work at the drafts, but anyone prepared to say that 2015 will be the better list is basing it on the assumption that kids will improve and senior players will maintain. Neither of which is a given.

It's all elementary though because we could have Sydney's list and still struggle because of our putrid ball movement and structures!

 

[Dynamics]

Beams is our biggest loss, a huge difference between 2014 and 2015. Will also miss Maxy, but he cant have been part of our planning for 2015. Will miss Lumumba too, but as with Daisy before him, we'd probably seen the best of H.

That's not the case with Beams.

So to cover for him, we have recruited some experience into the club, and drafted several big bodied 'Beams' types. I think that indicates our concern with losing him. We went searching for another.

Will we be ok? In the long run, yes. Not sure if that includes 2015.

With the big bodies, I think Beams going is clearly a factor but I think it goes further than that. Ball has gone, that leaves us a big body short also. And after 2014 I'm not sure there is as much confidence in JT to be a weekly contributor as there was the year before.

I think the club saw what many others saw: too many little men and too much crap disposal to win a flag.

Varcoe is a better ball user than H, and most of our new players are big and can kick.

Answering the OP, the midfield will look drastically different to what we've seen for a few years and how long that takes to settle will have a big say on how the season goes. Long term I think this squad is better equipped for the long term but it's also raw in areas which may see some pain before gain at stages of the year.

 

[Vicky Park]

With the big bodies, I think Beams going is clearly a factor but I think it goes further than that. Ball has gone, that leaves us a big body short also. And after 2014 I'm not sure there is as much confidence in JT to be a weekly contributor as there was the year before.

I think the club saw what many others saw: too many little men and too much crap disposal to win a flag.

Cant believe I left out Ball. Too early in the morning.

 

[Babylove]

Now that the drafts and trade periods are all over, I think the relevant question is;

"Is the 2015 Collingwood list better then the 2014 Collingwood list?"

The loss of Beams, Maxwell and Ball obviously hurts the best 22 straight out, but with natural improvement from the youngsters we've drafted in the previous 3-4 seasons, and the inclusion of Varcoe and Greenwood to the best 22 straight away, it's a close run thing I reckon.

I'm not sure that our list will be better in 2015, on the basis that we have predominately brought in kids to replace experienced players. But if these kids develop in the way that we hope, I think in a couple of years once the kids get experience, then it will be.

 

[loki04]

Ask me at around round 10 next season.

At this time last year, if you had told me Reid and Brown wouldn't play nearly the whole season in 2014, I would have picked us to finish 15th, I honestly didn't see a backup for them, but lo and behold Frost comes in an plays the whole season and performs well above what was expected of him, could very well have finished much lower If it wasn't for him, he's a player that came from nowhere and if someone at this stage last year picked him to be a required player in 2014, pat yourself on the back and go buy a lotto ticket.

We also all wanted Maxwell gone by the end of 2014, by half way through this year he was a vital player to our structure, if you had also told me our pick 65 would be replacing him in the backline instead of our pick 6, I would very well have spewed.

At this time of the preseason it's way too early to be asking this question, will players stand up?
Will Gault by the Frost of 2015?
Will Freeman fire up straight away?
Will one of our new draftees pull a Langdon and play most of 2015?
Will Swan and Cloke fire again?

Here's my opinion anyway, we were sitting equal 2nd half way through the year, average lists don't do that, when we were sitting equal 2nd we were without Reid, Brown and Cloke and Swan weren't firing.
That's 3 first choice KPP we were basically down.
We also by reports had an awful preseason last year.

This preseason we are in much better shape and our young guns look fresh and eager, heading into round 1 we will almost have a full list, a massive contrast from last season.

The difference between Greenwood and Beams is not 5-6 places on the ladder that some would have you believe, Beams is a great player, but Greenwood statistically is only slightly behind Beams, and who's to say Greenwood doesn't further improve, the difference between 2013-2014 Greenwood is staggering, 2014-2015 Greenwood could be further improved.
Same with Varcoe, Varcoe adds outside pace and footskills and those traits in my opinion are more required than those Lumumba provided.
Taylor Adams is a much better player compared to last preseason, this year was his introduction and he's ready to take over Balls position now, Kennedy, Broomhead, Grundy, Fasolo, PK, Freeman are having full preseasons for the first time and all are looking as healthy as they've ever been.

On top of our youngsters looking much healthier compared to this time last year, I fully expect Reid, Brown, Swan and Cloke to get back to their best, those 2 factors heavily outweigh the negatives with losing a few players.

I think our list is a fair bit better, healthier and has much more upside then our list this time last year, when your oldest player is 30 and you just missed the finals because of injury, there is very promising times ahead.

The backline was going to shit before Maxwell got injured.
Fact is it was very young and young players tire.

 

[Gone Critical]

We are stockpiling, I want to win 4-6 games max this year.
Get a couple more first rounders again, and seriously get Cameron.
2016/2017 thats when we peak

In my mind this would be an absolute disaster. For a start I am a Buckley supporter and 4-6 wins would almost certainly see him out the door and we would be back to the drawing board with a new coach and a new 5 year plan. It would immediately dampen down any chance that this list was going to make it back to the top while our guns, Pendles, Cloke, Reid, Swan are still about. Big price for say improving our place in the draft from pick 10 to pick 4. It doesn't give us anymore first rounders and it makes us a less attractive option to the likes of Cameron

 

[Pedro]

Probably not, no.

But list was never the problem in 2014, it was the gameplan.

How was the game plan looking after Round 11? 8/3 suggests it was probably ticking along OK. Did the gameplan change or did something else happen perhaps?

Hopefully we can see a fitter list this season, after the last two years of suffering from a ridiculous injury toll. That in itself should see us in a better position

 

[Prestige Presti]

The backline was going to shit before Maxwell got injured.
Fact is it was very young and young players tire.

Absolutely, it certainly didn't help that Williams, Sinclair, Seedsman, didn't get full preseasons, Toovey and Young didn't play in 2013 and were readjusting and Frost and Langdon were in their first full seasons.

All those blokes get full preseasons and that is a huge plus, it may be the difference in us avoiding another mid-late season fade out, preseasons are so important these days.

 

[Scodog10]

In my mind this would be an absolute disaster. For a start I am a Buckley supporter and 4-6 wins would almost certainly see him out the door and we would be back to the drawing board with a new coach and a new 5 year plan. It would immediately dampen down any chance that this list was going to make it back to the top while our guns, Pendles, Cloke, Reid, Swan are still about. Big price for say improving our place in the draft from pick 10 to pick 4. It doesn't give us anymore first rounders and it makes us a less attractive option to the likes of Cameron

I'm not a Buckley supporter and I can't agree at all with the bold.

The main reason being that we are an 8-10 win team in 2015 with our personell losses and our current system/ game plan. So 4-6 wins isn't the disaster many would expect. From there with our finances and long term plans we can't afford a payout...

FWIW the odds of those guys winning a premiership are drifting unfortunately. Swan in particular won't be involved in another one.

 

[Dynamics]

Unlikely Swanny will win another flag but if I were a gambler I'd put a few bucks on Pendles to finish his career as a premiership captain.

 

[NT.Thunder]

My biggest concern for the immediate future is in the experience and number of games we lost this season.

From my calculations, through retirements, de-listings and trades we lost 1,135 total games experience in one hit. That's a lot.

On the other end, we have traded in 230 games of AFL experience so already we have a gap of 905 games around the club. Granted guys like Hudson and Lynch were not playing regular AFL senior footy, but still losing them around the already young group will have an adverse affect.

Whether we are in better shape or not - I'd have to say in the long run we are. We have recruited well I think and now have a broader range of players where last year my feeling was that we were too one dimensional. I still agree that we miss the X-Factor of that small 40+ season goal kicker but that's what next years draft is for I guess.

It'll be a journey that's for sure, but it'll be an exciting one with fresh new faces all willing to move the club in the right direction.

 

[jmac70]

If the list is not better then the entire football department should be sacked.

 

[Crousehouse]

The pessimistic way I come to see it is that we are sliding down the ladder hard. We are not a bottom 8 team fighting for top spot. We are looking as weak as melbounre.. Well maybe not that bad. I don't think we will start coming back up till we fall completely andultimately hit the bottom of the ladder. I still have much hope however that this will not be the case.

 

[Scodog10]

If the list is not better then the entire football department should be sacked.

That is absurd logic!!! How were they supposed to adequately replace Maxwell, Beams, Ball and Lumumba in one off-season? What big name recruits were we to bring in to see us match what we lost post 2014?

The 2015 list will not be better than the 2014, however every move we made (bar the rediculous decision on Varcoe) will see us better in 2016 and beyond.

 

[mike123]

With the big bodies, I think Beams going is clearly a factor but I think it goes further than that. Ball has gone, that leaves us a big body short also. And after 2014 I'm not sure there is as much confidence in JT to be a weekly contributor as there was the year before.

I think the club saw what many others saw: too many little men and too much crap disposal to win a flag.

Varcoe is a better ball user than H, and most of our new players are big and can kick.

Answering the OP, the midfield will look drastically different to what we've seen for a few years and how long that takes to settle will have a big say on how the season goes. Long term I think this squad is better equipped for the long term but it's also raw in areas which may see some pain before gain at stages of the year.

Not a big loss, at the end of last year Taylor Adams already gone ahead of him.

 

[mike123]

That is absurd logic!!! How were they supposed to adequately replace Maxwell, Beams, Ball and Lumumba in one off-season? What big name recruits were we to bring in to see us match what we lost post 2014?

The 2015 list will not be better than the 2014, however every move we made (bar the rediculous decision on Varcoe) will see us better in 2016 and beyond.

Seedsman plays a full season and replaces Lumumba. A less injured Swan will replace Beams. Ball has already been replaced by Taylor Adams. Maxwell is harder to replace but Toovey can have a bigger season after a poor one coming off an ACL and Langdon can improve. Then there is Broomhead and Freeman if they have a good uninterrupted pre season will improve the sides midfield depth plus we've added Varcoe who adds speed and footskills to a side that is lacking it. And Greenwood is a clear upgrade on Maccaffer.

 

[Justlokan]

I think the biggest loss was Maxy as a leader and organiser. Granted, he was past it as a player but the on-field general role is not to be underestimated and we don't have a successor. Langdon is still finding his feet, as is Keefe.
Although others prefer Reid up forward, I'm more inclined to return him to the backline to provide experience and guidance.

Beams is a big loss in the sense that instead of adding to his talents we recruited to make up for his loss. In the long run we'll be able to cover Beamsy - he was very very good but not a lynchpin like Pendles or Cloke.

FWIW I'm reasonably happy with our 2015 list. If we stay healthy we'll make the 8

 

[cleomenes]

I expect a breakout year from Keeffe as he builds his strength and body positioning. With better years expected from Williams, Toovey and Brown, even if Langdon and Frost only maintain their 2014 form, the backline looks pretty solid.
The forwards likewise look stronger, with Reid, Cloke and Elliott the mainstays, and a plethora of rising players whose output should be better than this year.
In the middle of the ground, at least one of Witts and Grundy should start to control games, Pendlebury hopefully will be as good as this year, while Swan should be a lot better. We then strike the unknowns, with hope replacing expectation. If all of the new players do as we hope, then the end result is a lot stronger team than this year. If too many of them don't work out, we are a lot worse.

The original question, about the relative list strengths, is not very relevant for the year, since so many on the list in 2014 were in no condition to play for so much of it. We hope that we don't get any sort of repeat.

 

[jmac70]

That is absurd logic!!! How were they supposed to adequately replace Maxwell, Beams, Ball and Lumumba in one off-season? What big name recruits were we to bring in to see us match what we lost post 2014?

The 2015 list will not be better than the 2014, however every move we made (bar the rediculous decision on Varcoe) will see us better in 2016 and beyond.

What I mean is that every year the club must try and improve the list. The on-field performance in 2015 may be lower, but the potential of the list to achieve a premiership is improved. In the case of replacing senior players we should also be mindful of their ability in 2014, not their career reputation. Of the players you named only Beams could be said to have further improvement left in his game.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

We lost Beams. We lost Maxwell. It isn't even a contest unfortunately.

TBH Quicky we didn't even have Maxwell on the ground for much of it and Beams - yes he's a loss alright but maybe the loss of him and a bit player is well compensated by 2 or more teammates that have talent and actually give a damn about team spirit.

I have a gut feeling... wait... aaaaahhh that's better.

Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yeah, 2015 by a long shot. So much upside.

 

[Scodog10]

What I mean is that every year the club must try and improve the list. The on-field performance in 2015 may be lower, but the potential of the list to achieve a premiership is improved. In the case of replacing senior players we should also be mindful of their ability in 2014, not their career reputation. Of the players you named only Beams could be said to have further improvement left in his game.

It can only be a good thing that the board don't share your opinion because only the most rosy eyed of supporters could see the 2015 list as an improvement on 2014.