Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[SuperSub17]

yes, it's not just killing, but it all still resolves around intent.

Mate, go and have a look at the litany of statements from Israel’s own government.

Statements like “we are fighting human animals”.

Statements like “there are no innocent civilians”.

Statements like “making Gaza a place where no human can live”.

Statements like Netanyahu’s spiel about Amalek - “slay their women and children” - on the day they started the ground offensive.

Statements like “we’re focused on maximum damage, not accuracy”.

Then take a look at the footage - where they are murdering civilians in cold blood.


How you are still giving them the benefit of the doubt because of “no intent” is staggering.

 

[DangerousD]

These tunnels were dug out using child labour, of which 160+ are estimated to have died during the process.

They are used to smuggle contraband/weapons and launch attacks.

They can't realistically be compared to generic tunnel systems in major capital cities.

Firstly, how do you know they were dug out using child labour? Wherever this is written, is it reliable?

Secondly, i dont doubt that tunnels or any other place that’s advantages to fight a perceived enemy is being used to smuggle weapons.

Thirdly, i disagree here, the existence of tunnels isn’t controversial, Israel would be full of tunnels used for the same purpose.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Firstly, how do you know they were dug out using child labour? Wherever this is written, is it reliable?

Secondly, i dont doubt that tunnels or any other place that’s advantages to fight a perceived enemy is being used to smuggle weapons.

Thirdly, i disagree here, the existence of tunnels isn’t controversial, Israel would be full of tunnels used for the same purpose.

Israel tunnels are only used for defense weapons. Their attack weapons are mostly all on military bases, which are conveniently nestled amongst the civilian shield suburbs of Greater Israel.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

It does.

Do you honestly think that Israel, over the majority of the past 70 years of its existence, has not intended to reclaim all of historic Palestine from the Arab Muslims, by virtue of annexations, occupations, apartheid, persecutions and military action?

Or have the millions of Arab Muslim refugees, hundreds of thousands of Arab Muslims dead, Jewish settlements springing up everywhere etc just been a co-incidence?

Lets be real here. I said above that if Hamas leadership had a button they could push that would eradicate every single Jewish person in historic Palestine with zero repercussions, they'd push it.

Do you think the Israeli leadership is any different?

are you suggesting genocide is taking place? or ethnic cleansing?

 

[DangerousD]

lol

HRW has a known bias against Israel that dates back to before 2014.

This is really disappointing.

Perhaps it’s because of Israels poor record on human rights and not bias.

This is like ignoring all evidence something is happening and then claiming years later, no one told me.

 

[Not Important]

This is why zionism is inherently antisemitic. To carry out ethnic cleansing in the name of an entire ethnic group is gross. Not to mention it directly correlates to an increase of antisemitism around the world and also puts Jewish Israeli's in harms way.

this is rubbish and is used effectively by the extremists in israel to blunt criticism of israel.

Religiously devout Jews denouncing Israel make nonsense of the claims that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism

Satmar and other Hasidic groups see Israel's violence as arising from a betrayal of Judaism's covenant with God. The charge can't be dismissed.

www.crikey.com.au

Why I am an anti-Zionist Jew

The Israeli government deliberately invokes terrorist attacks, rockets, and scary brown men in headscarfs to stoke the population's fear, but I am scared of the racism Zionists use to justify the occupation. Originally published August 2014.

www.opendemocracy.net

 

[Not Important]

 

[Ghost Patrol]

are you suggesting genocide is taking place? or ethnic cleansing?

 

[Not Important]

didn’t the corrupt israel leader say to the palestinians move south it’s safe there. lies, upon lies, upon lies. the dumb and brutal hamas attack has given the unconscionable murderous israel regime the chance to wipe out a people. hopefully the world will never forget or forgive.

 

[Jimi]

Omar makes a really good point here.

Crazy stuff.

This disconnect between the attitude of regular Israeli's and what is portrayed in the media does help explain why the wilfully obtuse morons (including in this thread, on this very page) can't wrap their head around the fact that there is at minimum ethnic cleansing going on, and strong evidence of a genocide.

Trying to argue that there is no "intent" to commit genocide when there are countless direct statements from Israeli leaders stating outright they are going to commit genocide, ably backed up by Israeli celebrities and zionists around the world literally cheering on the murder and displacement of Palestinians.

This is happening. Just because the media in this country isn't reporting on it doesn't mean that a genocide is not occurring.

Tasked to “examine the legal implications of Israel’s military offensive against Gaza since 7 October and shed light on the applicability of key legal frameworks including those defining Genocide”, the panel was titled “2023 War on Gaza: The Responsibility to Prevent Genocide”.

“But sadly it is clear that genocide is already happening, so our question now is the responsibility to stop the ongoing genocide,” Hari Prabowo, Indonesia’s Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN who chaired the panel discussion, said at its conclusion.

On the same day, the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) also adopted a resolution recognizing that “Israel’s actions against the Palestinian people constitute an unfolding genocide.”

From November onwards UN experts, including several Special Rapporteurs and members of Working Groups on various issues, have been warning that there was “a genocide in the making” in Gaza.

Consensus on the genocidal nature of Israel’s war on Gaza has been consolidating since its early days. As early as October 15, just over a week after Israel started its bombardment, nearly 900 “scholars and practitioners of international law, conflict studies and genocide studies” from around the world had warned of a “potential genocide in Gaza.”
LINK to article

 

[DangerousD]

Israel sees an existential threat based on what Hamas did October 7.

Do you really believe that? Or is it a good platform to launch a big military campaigns against them? How can an organisation of GAZA be an existential threat to Israel?

Israel has killed more people in GAZA since OCT 7 than all Israeli military losses and civilian losses to terrorism since its inception.

I know they say they are an existential threat but i dont believe its true.

 

[Malifice]

are you suggesting genocide is taking place? or ethnic cleansing?

For the avoidance of any doubt, Yes. That's exactly what I am saying.

I don't make this comparison lightly, but what they're doing is no different to what the German State did to the Jewish population of Europe leading up to the construction of the Gas chambers (the Warsaw Ghetto, the Race laws etc). Concentrating them in walled in ghettos, subject to military control and a deprival of rights and liberties, and enforcing 'collective punishment', following the confiscation of land and property.

It started in earnest in 1948:

In 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and, later, the Israeli army[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] during the 1948 Palestine war,[9] following the Partition Plan for Palestine. The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11] Between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[12][13] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[14] These activities were not necessarily limited to the year 1948.[15]

1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight - Wikipedia

The goal of many influential Zionists was to create an Israel (a Jewish State) for 'the chosen people of God', encompassing all of Palestine.

The State of Israel has been deliberately and intentionally displacing Arab Muslim Palestinians, annexing the lands on which they live, subjecting them to a two-tiered system of legal persecution, building settlements over the top, persecuting and killing them in droves for literally 70 years.

That's just the facts.

Hamas are shitcampaigner terrorists, but the above is no better.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Posters critical of Israel:
Hamas and Israel equally despicable in their disrespect of human life.

Posters defending Israel:
Israel are not great, but Hamas are terrorists trying to destroy Israel.

Score since Oct 7:
1200 v 20,000
Physical destruction/impact:
Minimal vs entire cities, hospitals, water, power, refugee camps, ambulances

This isn't a reflection on only the last few pages/days, but the entire thread.

People are being killed, maimed... destroyed. And for what exactly?

I can't do this anymore. I give up. I'm out.

Good luck to you all, stay safe over the festive season we're lucky enough to enjoy. I'll be sticking to other forums from now on.

 

[leon123]

Posters critical of Israel:
Hamas and Israel equally despicable in their disrespect of human life.

Posters defending Israel:
Israel are not great, but Hamas are terrorists trying to destroy Israel.

The above is succinct summary of this tread...

and a safe and happy xmas period to you/family

 

[Jimi]

Posters critical of Israel:
Hamas and Israel equally despicable in their disrespect of human life.

Posters defending Israel:
Israel are not great, but Hamas are terrorists trying to destroy Israel.

Score since Oct 7:
1200 v 20,000
Physical destruction/impact:
Minimal vs entire cities, hospitals, water, power, refugee camps, ambulances

This isn't a reflection on only the last few pages/days, but the entire thread.

People are being killed, maimed... destroyed. And for what exactly?

I can't do this anymore. I give up. I'm out.

Good luck to you all, stay safe over the festive season we're lucky enough to enjoy. I'll be sticking to other forums from now on.

I hope you're ok man! I've thoroughly enjoyed your posting in this hell thread

There's another pattern I've seen repeatedly in here from the Israel apologists. The three stages of genocide denial..

Stage 1: Bad Thing/Genocide/war crimes/some atrocity is definitely not happening (because the source is flawed and mainstream news hasn't reported it yet)
Stage 2: Bad thing might be happening but there's nothing we or the country of Australia can do about it
Stage 3: Bad thing is happening but Hamas did it first

For me at least, arguing with randoms in this thread has given some outlet to the anger and sadness I have with how the western world is handling this. What helps even more is getting along to a Free Palestine march if you can!

 

[sydney_gws]

Posters critical of Israel:
Hamas and Israel equally despicable in their disrespect of human life.

Posters defending Israel:
Israel are not great, but Hamas are terrorists trying to destroy Israel.

Score since Oct 7:
1200 v 20,000
Physical destruction/impact:
Minimal vs entire cities, hospitals, water, power, refugee camps, ambulances

This isn't a reflection on only the last few pages/days, but the entire thread.

People are being killed, maimed... destroyed. And for what exactly?

I can't do this anymore. I give up. I'm out.

Good luck to you all, stay safe over the festive season we're lucky enough to enjoy. I'll be sticking to other forums from now on.

It is terrible, main problem is internal politics.
Even if Israel and Palestine agreed on à border for the 2 states, it wouldn't be enough for both peoples to be happy, Israel leader in particular would be hated internally for giving up land and would lose the next Israel election.
In America, the pro Israel lobby is stopping USA from doing what most people would say is reasonable.

I think the solution is the UN. It has to change the right of veto, especially for 3rd parties.
USA shouldn't be able to overrule effectively 14 other countries on security council.

 

[Kurve]

Do you really believe that? Or is it a good platform to launch a big military campaigns against them? How can an organisation of GAZA be an existential threat to Israel?

I don't know how many times I have to declare I didn't agree with Israel bombing Gaza to rubble in the first place and I was hoping that they wouldn't retaliate with bombs.

Do I believe Israel will probably seize the opportunity to take land? On their record, yes.

Do I believe Israeli jews see or saw the Hamas attack as an existential threat? Yes.

Both those things can be true.

 

[Saint]

It is terrible, main problem is internal politics.
Even if Israel and Palestine agreed on à border for the 2 states, it wouldn't be enough for both peoples to be happy, Israel leader in particular would be hated internally for giving up land and would lose the next Israel election.
In America, the pro Israel lobby is stopping USA from doing what most people would say is reasonable.

I think the solution is the UN. It has to change the right of veto, especially for 3rd parties.
USA shouldn't be able to overrule effectively 14 other countries on security council.

Quite right. Both sides' populations believe all the land is theirs, that they're the victims of unreasonable violence and neither will agree to peace. It needs to be imposed upon them. That's possible to impose on Palestinians quite easily, but only the US can stop protecting Israel and try to force it to accept a peace settlement that they don't want.

 

[Carn The Berries]

I don't know how many times I have to declare I didn't agree with Israel bombing Gaza to rubble in the first place and I was hoping that they wouldn't retaliate with bombs.

Do I believe Israel will probably seize the opportunity to take land? On their record, yes.

Do I believe Israeli jews see or saw the Hamas attack as an existential threat? Yes.

Both those things can be true.

That is the height of delusion on the part of the Israelis. As has been said by many posters in this thread already, if Hamas had the capability to wipe Israel off the map, they probably would.

Look at the outcry about how October 7 could have happened given the money Israel pours into defence, and the outcome was 1,200ish people killed. There is no existential threat to Israel. Hamas simply don't, and never will, be able to destroy Israel.

It's just a convenient justification for a ridiculously dis-proportionate response.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I don't know how many times I have to declare I didn't agree with Israel bombing Gaza to rubble in the first place and I was hoping that they wouldn't retaliate with bombs.

Do I believe Israel will probably seize the opportunity to take land? On their record, yes.

Do I believe Israeli jews see or saw the Hamas attack as an existential threat? Yes.

Both those things can be true.

I reckon some Israeli Jews would see the IDF as an existential threat.

 

[faible]

the outcome was 1,200ish people killed.

We're down to 695 civilians now too, against ~ 20,000 Palestinian deaths which are mostly civilians.

Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths

A more precise picture of Hamas's October 7 attack on Israel has emerged from social security data, confirming the unprecedented scale of the violence but also challenging some initial testimonies.The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in...

news.yahoo.com

There's simply no way Israel's actions are defensible.

If Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and Israel are doing dramatically worse things, what does that make the Israeli Government?

 

[Malifice]

Posters critical of Israel:
Hamas and Israel equally despicable in their disrespect of human life.

Which is true.

The difference is Israel have the military and economic ability to cause far more damage than Hamas do at present.

If Hamas had Israels current military and economic superiority, and Israel was a small strip of walled in land in Gaza, do you think the result would be any different?

For examples of how Jewish people are treated as second class citizens (at best) or outright targeted in Islamic States, look at pretty much every single other Islamic State both contemporary and historical. And that's before you get into the animosity many Palestinian Arabs have towards Jewish people generally on account of Israels actions over the past 70 odd years.

If Hamas could, they'd declare the entire territory of mandatory Palestine as an Islamic State (they already do this by the way) and would purge all Jewish people off those lands.

Im more than happy to be critical of Israel and their program of genocide against the Palestinians, but lets not kid ourselves by saying Hamas are any different. They simply lack the means to enact what they want.

The preferred position is to renounce genocide, and allow for self-determination, and encourage peaceful co-existence.

To be fair to Israel (and it's hard to be fair to a genocidal State) they're actually correct when they say, 'Hamas would destroy Israel if given a chance'.

 

[Jello_B]

Owen you know I respect your point of view, except this one's a bit off.

Is calling the Hamas attack a genocide, really a hardcore pro-Zionist talking point? Or is it true?

Why are so many posters here who you respect your opinion challenging your content on this topic?
Have you self reflected (I say this with respect not trolling you)?
Why are your opinions on this subject most likely aligning with posters that you would normally disagree with?

 

[Chief]

Is calling the Hamas attack a genocide, really a hardcore pro-Zionist talking point? Or is it true?

That one attack? No I don't think it was.

Their overall aim? Yes, or at least ethnic cleansing.

 

[Kurve]

Why are so many posters here who you respect your opinion challenging your content on this topic?
Have you self reflected (I say this with respect not trolling you)?
Why are your opinions on this subject most likely aligning with posters that you would normally disagree with?

Of course, I will think about it.