Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Saint]

Im more than happy to be critical of Israel and their program of genocide against the Palestinians, but lets not kid ourselves by saying Hamas are any different. They simply lack the means to enact what they want.

The only people i've heard say Hamas are different to the Israeli Govt is people saying the Israeli Govt isn't as bad.

Nobody has said the IDF have worse ideology than Hamas. But they certainly wield more power and are inflicting more genocidal damage than Hamas ever could.

So it makes sense now for a ceasefire. Because if Israel continue to do what they're doing and the starvation and disease spread, many more innocent lives will be lost than in 2 decades of Hamas attacks.

Yes, they should have removed Hamas, but in a different way. Now, they (israel) are the greater threat to civilian life.

 

[schneebly111]

If Hamas could, they'd declare the entire territory of mandatory Palestine as an Islamic State (they already do this by the way) and would purge all Jewish people off those lands.

If Likud and the settler parties could they’d declare a fully Jewish state between the river and the sea an expel all non compliant Arabs from those lands…..

…..oh wait that’s what they’re actually doing….

 

[Malifice]

If Likud and the settler parties could they’d declare a fully Jewish state between the river and the sea an expel all non compliant Arabs from those lands…..

…..oh wait that’s what they’re actually doing….

Which is exactly what I said.

Just dont parrot to me how good Hamas are, because they want exactly the same thing. The only thing that stops them is Israels military power.

If the shoe was on the other foot, are you in any doubt the result would be any different?

Im not condoning Israels genocide here by the way. I condemn it. But we do need to condemn the desire of both States to enact genocide, and for both States to instead embrace self-determination, and the right of the other to exist, or else we're never getting anywhere.

 

[Jello_B]

Sorry for long post.
What I think the Australian government can do:

Don’t disrupt military ties with the US as I don’t think we can. But start to use our geographical position to rebalance the relationship with the US. The US really need us. We should be more direct on this. We could turn off pine gap and other facilities (I won’t post them here, I have worked on them) if we wanted, and yes the US would be angered but I don’t think they would declare war on us. Become a little more assertive, within reason.

Disconnect from Israel entirely. Be absolutely critical in what they are doing, outwardly.

Increase funding and aid to Palestine with strict conditions and method it gets to their people (and not hamas missiles - **** hamas), I’m talking with $B. Make it clear to the international community that we support a homeland for a displaced people.

Start consulting with other Middle Eastern leaders and start actively listening to their opinion on forward options for the region.

Work really closely with Jewish and Palestinian leaders in Australia to ensure the removal of any anti-semitism and anti-Islamic behaviour (they can **** off those armed guards from our schools as well), this needs to be a cultural piece that focuses on unity and is absolutely damning toward “anti” behaviour.

Take an agnostic view to protests - let people express.

 

[Jello_B]

Which is exactly what I said.

Just dont parrot to me how good Hamas are, because they want exactly the same thing. The only thing that stops them is Israels military power.

If the shoe was on the other foot, are you in any doubt the result would be any different?

Im not condoning Israels genocide here by the way. I condemn it. But we do need to condemn the desire of both States to enact genocide, and for both States to instead embrace self-determination, and the right of the other to exist, or else we're never getting anywhere.

Malifice I disagree with you on a lot of things (particularly your position on blaming “men”) but I have to say I really really enjoy reading your opinion on this topic.

 

[Malifice]

Don’t disrupt military ties with the US as I don’t think we can. But start to use our geographical position to rebalance the relationship with the US. The US really need us. We should be more direct on this. We could turn off pine gap and other facilities (I won’t post them here, I have worked on them) if we wanted, and yes the US would be angered but I don’t think they would declare war on us. Become a little more assertive, within reason.

No, they wouldn't declare war on us, but they would sure as shit rip up our military treaties, end the alliance, stop selling us military equipment, destroy the free trade agreement, revoke our special US Visa that only Australians get, and **** with our economy plus a whole lot more.

Why on earth would we deliberately ostracize ourselves from our major political and military ally? In no way is that in Australia's best interests.

 

[Jello_B]

No, they wouldn't declare war on us, but they would sure as s**t rip up our military treaties, end the alliance, stop selling us military equipment, destroy the free trade agreement, revoke our special US Visa that only Australians get, and * with our economy plus a whole lot more.

Why on earth would we deliberately ostracize ourselves from our major political and military ally? In no way is that in Australia's best interests.

Sorry you misunderstood me I think, I wouldnt turn off pine gap or other facilities. I was using that as an example to demonstrate our strategic importance to the US. I’m coming from a position that we could communicate a position to the US more strongly and realise our importance. Sometimes I think Australia under estimates how valuable we are.

 

[Malifice]

Malifice I disagree with you on a lot of things (particularly your position on blaming “men”) but I have to say I really really enjoy reading your opinion on this topic.

I don't blame 'men' as in 'all men' (in the context of DV or mass killings, or violent and sexual crime rates). I say that there is a strong gender bias in those things, that can't be explained away by any other socio-economic factors.

Im critical of the patriarchy (which is what creates incels, as well as glosses over male perpetrator DV rates, mass shootings and crime bias) not critical of indivudal blokes. Know the difference.

Until we embrace that fact (that our boys deserve better, as do our girls) then we aint ever getting anywhere.

Back on topic, we need to be realistic (again) here. Hamas are total shit campaigners. They openly desire the destruction of Israel. Israel are also shit campaigners. They've been actively engaged in a campaign of genocide against the Palestinian people for 70 years.

Our starting point here is the rejection of calls to genoicde, and the acceptance of each sides right of self determination and the right to co-exist peacefully. From that point, I then point the finger at Israel because along with the desire to annihilate the other side, Israel are actively participating in it at present.

That needs to stop.

 

[Malifice]

Sorry you misunderstood me I think, I wouldnt turn off pine gap or other facilities. I was using that as an example to demonstrate our strategic importance to the US.

They would rip up or suspend the five eyes intelligence pact, ANZUS, and AUKUS, and the E-3 Visa plus the Free Trade agreement we have with them. Joint security operations would cease.

Why on Earth would you piss off the world's foremost military, cultural and economic power and our strongest ally by several thousands of orders of magnitude?

New Zealand wouldn't let their nuclear ships enter their waters and look what happened to them.

 

[Jello_B]

They would rip up or suspend the five eyes intelligence pact, ANZUS, and AUKUS, and the E-3 Visa plus the Free Trade agreement we have with them. Joint security operations would cease.

Why on Earth would you piss off the world's foremost military, cultural and economic power and our strongest ally by several thousands of orders of magnitude?

New Zealand wouldn't let their nuclear ships enter their waters and look what happened to them.

We are more important than the NZ.
We have a lot of US infrastructure here, and we are getting more.
Who else can the US ally with, with our geography.
We can be more than we think.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Israel scores alright on V-dem democracy ratings. The rest of the region does come close.

Freedom House … Middle East

“Israel has the highest aggregate score (77) and is currently the only country rated Free in the region, though the government elected late in 2022 ran on a policy agenda that raised concerns about judicial independence and other core elements of democracy. Freedom House assesses the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip as separate territories, and both are rated Not Free.
Syria (1) has the worst aggregate score in the region, followed by Saudi Arabia (8).
Some 93 percent of the region’s people live in countries rated Not Free, while 4 percent live in Partly Free countries and 3 percent live in a Free country.

Iran might have rated higher if the US/UK didn't help overthrow Mossadegh in 53 and install a ruthless dictator to preserve BP's profits. Or the Gulf states if they weren't carved up by the western colonists and had dictators/monarchies installed to protect their imperial interests.

 

[Boston tiger]

Sorry for long post.
What I think the Australian government can do:

Don’t disrupt military ties with the US as I don’t think we can. But start to use our geographical position to rebalance the relationship with the US. The US really need us. We should be more direct on this. We could turn off pine gap and other facilities (I won’t post them here, I have worked on them) if we wanted, and yes the US would be angered but I don’t think they would declare war on us. Become a little more assertive, within reason.

Disconnect from Israel entirely. Be absolutely critical in what they are doing, outwardly.

Increase funding and aid to Palestine with strict conditions and method it gets to their people (and not hamas missiles - * hamas), I’m talking with $B. Make it clear to the international community that we support a homeland for a displaced people.

Start consulting with other Middle Eastern leaders and start actively listening to their opinion on forward options for the region.

Work really closely with Jewish and Palestinian leaders in Australia to ensure the removal of any anti-semitism and anti-Islamic behaviour (they can * off those armed guards from our schools as well), this needs to be a cultural piece that focuses on unity and is absolutely damning toward “anti” behaviour.

Take an agnostic view to protests - let people express.

May God help us.

 

[Kurve]

That is the height of delusion on the part of the Israelis. As has been said by many posters in this thread already, if Hamas had the capability to wipe Israel off the map, they probably would.

Yeh, I wouldn't take that approach with the Jewish people. Telling them they're delusional and dissing them when they perceive an existential threat and they think it's groundhog day.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

No, I said Israel and Palestinians, because those people are in those locations and not all Israelis are Jews, as are not all Palestinians Jihadis.

They are however the 2 groups currently at conflict.

The next time someone says the USA should stop supporting Israel, then please call it out, because I'm sure there are plenty of people in the USA who actually don't support Israel, if this is the hill you want to die on.

"Israel" is different from "Israelis"

 

[Jello_B]

May God help us.

Are they no good ideas?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Hamas won't just be allowed to continue after what they did though.

What does this even mean though? Support for Hamas has increased due to Israel's massacre and displacement/ethnic cleansing in Gaza and continued use of force/displacement/kidnapping in the West Bank. Even if you did "wipe out" Hamas which is unlikely it won't wipe out the reason Hamas exists and another group would just arise causing the same issues.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

In 15 years prior Palestine had killed 308 Israelis.
In one day they killed 1200.
Target Leadership and wait for the next one ?

How many Palestinians had Israelis killed/kidnapped? What should they have done, target Israeli leadership and wait for the next one?

What would the benefits be ? Palestine want the destruction of Israel.

Israel wants the destruction of Palestine. What should the Palestinians do?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

.

Every time. Why do I need to prove my humanity over and over and over again in this thread?

This is what I posted yesterday:

There's little point in engaging in here when every argument can be shut down with 'thousands of dead babies' and which is of course unacceptable, inhumane and disgusting but which I understand there's not a thing I can do about and I don't want to engage on it. To do so for me, feels I'm doing exactly what Hamas intended.

There's little point in engaging in here when every argument can be shut down with 'October 7th' and which is of course unacceptable, inhumane and disgusting but which I understand there's not a thing I can do about and I don't want to engage on it. To do so for me, feels I'm doing exactly what Israel intended.

 

[DangerousD]

I don't know how many times I have to declare I didn't agree with Israel bombing Gaza to rubble in the first place and I was hoping that they wouldn't retaliate with bombs.

Do I believe Israel will probably seize the opportunity to take land? On their record, yes.

Do I believe Israeli jews see or saw the Hamas attack as an existential threat? Yes.

Both those things can be true.

I wasn’t asking you to repeat or condemn Israel, I was just asking if you believed that the attacks were an existential threat?

I think Israelis might see it as an existential threat because the government make them think that way, but I don’t believe them.

I also think the Israeli government don’t see HAMAS being an existential threat, but they use the idea they are.

 

[Kurve]

I wasn’t asking you to repeat or condemn Israel, I was just asking if you believed that the attacks were an existential threat?

I think Israelis might see it as an existential threat because the government make them think that way, but I don’t believe them.

I also think the Israeli government don’t see HAMAS being an existential threat, but they use the idea they are.

IMO Hamas isn't an existential threat to Israel right now but I'm not an Israeli Jew and I don't live in the powder keg that is the Middle East.

 

[QuietB]

It is terrible, main problem is internal politics.
Even if Israel and Palestine agreed on à border for the 2 states, it wouldn't be enough for both peoples to be happy, Israel leader in particular would be hated internally for giving up land and would lose the next Israel election.
In America, the pro Israel lobby is stopping USA from doing what most people would say is reasonable.

I think the solution is the UN. It has to change the right of veto, especially for 3rd parties.
USA shouldn't be able to overrule effectively 14 other countries on security council.

The UN is certainly flawed but it would have never happened without the veto powers. And if the UN never happened who knows where we would be. It does serve a hugely important role at times like this even if their hands are tied.

 

[leon123]

IMO Hamas isn't an existential threat to Israel right now but I'm not an Israeli Jew and I don't live in the powder keg that is the Middle East.

i wise person once told me: " dont start fires in or near powder kegs".. simple but sound

 

[Malifice]

We are more important than the NZ.
We have a lot of US infrastructure here, and we are getting more.
Who else can the US ally with, with our geography.
We can be more than we think.

As it stands a military invasion of Australia would be met by the USA declaring war.

Thats literally the best deterrent we can have.

Having access to their intelligence infrastructure and favoured access to their economy?

I mean we'd be idiots to piss them off.

The kiwis can afford to do **** all because they can.

We can't.

 

[ferball]

So, 20,000+ accidental deaths. That’s very convenient for the ethnic cleansing regime, dont you think?

I reckon that poster you're responding to has me on ignore so next time he mentions stuff like this:

it needs to be established that Israel and intentionally killing Palestinian civilians. At this point in time I don't believe they are.

as if it isn't happening draw his attention to this article:

‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza

Permissive airstrikes on non-military targets and the use of an AI system have enabled the Israeli army to carry out its deadliest war on Gaza.

www.972mag.com

In particular these bits:

According to the sources who spoke to +972 and Local Call, the targets in Gaza that have been struck by Israeli aircraft can be divided roughly into four categories.
...
The third is “power targets,” which includes high-rises and residential towers in the heart of cities, and public buildings such as universities, banks, and government offices. The idea behind hitting such targets, say three intelligence sources who were involved in planning or conducting strikes on power targets in the past, is that a deliberate attack on Palestinian society will exert “civil pressure” on Hamas.
...
Indeed, according to sources who were involved in the compiling of power targets in previous wars, although the target file usually contains some kind of alleged association with Hamas or other militant groups, striking the target functions primarily as a “means that allows damage to civil society.” The sources understood, some explicitly and some implicitly, that damage to civilians is the real purpose of these attacks.

They need to acknowledge this then they face the reality and change their flawed beliefs.

 

[ferball]

May God help us.

Isn't this the sort of thinking that caused the problem in the first place?