Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Netanyahu has done a good job of making Israel look more extreme than Hamas and Hezbollah. He's even making Iran look fairly moderate.
What a nutbag.

Nah. A quick search on x will show you the atrocities these 3 all perpetuate regularly. They are barbaric women hating ****s and no better than Netanyahu.

 

[Saint]

The Jewish settlers legally purchased land within the Ottoman empire to form their own state - they did not expel the Arabs by force or by violence.

Arab Palestinians responded with violence towards Jewish settlers. These are the facts.


The are numerous historically documented examples of Palestinian Arab revolts against the Yishuv.


Nonsense. The wars started because the Arabs were opposed to the Balfour Declaration. The Allies won Palestine and (at the time) had every right to partition it as they wish - including the creation of a sovereign Israeli state.

The Palestinian Arabs have revolted ever since and look how far it has got them. Without meaning to excuse the excesses of continued Israeli aggression, the fact remains that every Palestinian casualty - every starving child, every dying mother, is the ongoing result of Palestinian realpolitik failure at every point in its dire, miserable history.

Against the wishes of the inhabitants? Most people recognise colonialism like this as having been a mistake, all across the Middle East and Africa.

Also, the British had made commitments to the Arabs who helped them that they would have sovreignty if they helped defeat the Ottomans. This was just the first time a colonial power reneged on a deal with local leaders, and when the British finished reneging on deals, the Israeli's took over reneging on deals.

The history of arab revolts against Jewish settlers is matched by the history of Jewish terrorist attacks. Israel has museums to terrorists which you can go and visit today. Want to visit the museum dedicated to the King David Hotel bombing, you can do that. Want to visit the museum dedicated to the bombings of the Arab markets with truck bombs? They have a museum for that, too.

So let's not pretend violence and celebration of violence is one-sided.

 

[Saint]

if you can't see the difference between US supporting Israel and trading with South Africa during apartheid, then enjoy your wait. The US will never stop supporting Israel - in fact it will continue to sell and give it weapons. I think we all know that.

The only way to stop wars in the Middle East is to disarm Arab countries, and give Israel lands that make up the "promised land". I would probably add that any Arabs remaining with the newly enlarged Israel would need to accept a form of non-citizenship and those who couldn't accept that, would need to be expelled. I think that might fix the issue, but I'm open to suggestions.

Why would Israel be "newly enlarged"?

The state goes back to the 1967 borders before Israel attacked and invaded their neighbours. Israel should not be allowed to continue to have different rules for Jews as for any other citizen (christian, Muslim, Druze, Bedouin).

There are two elements to the apartheid. One is what they do in the occupied territories, where it's overt oppression and terrorism. The other is more Jim-Crow style laws which are aimed at keeping Palestinians in Israel in their place (high poverty rates, not allowed to live in most communities).

 

[HirdsTheWord]

I've repeatedly said on this forum from day 1 that there are three contributors to violence and instability in the Middle East and I've held them accountable for their contributions. The Israelis, the Saudis and Iran. The UAE and Qatar (called little Saudi) are fast approaching this as well with their contributions to instability in Sudan and Libya respectively. As for outsiders, the US, the British, the French and the Russians (specifically in Syria) are the 4 main contributors to an unstable Middle East. Most violence stems from these 7 in particular + the other 2.

We can talk about a collapse of the Saudi and Iranian regime and their proxies, but that would do nothing to solve the issue of Palestine because the Zionist regime will invent another external threat. That's how narcissists work. The conversation of dismantling Zionist rulership cannot be avoided.

Well, we agree there.

I have said extremist Zionism needs to go also.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Netanyahu has done a good job of making Israel look more extreme than Hamas and Hezbollah. He's even making Iran look fairly moderate.
What a nutbag.

lol........what?

God I'm glad you have a minority opinion.

 

[Jello_B]

lol........what?

God I'm glad you have a minority opinion.

It’s a growing opinion. The guy is insane.

 

[Markfs]

Why would Israel be "newly enlarged"?

The state goes back to the 1967 borders before Israel attacked and invaded their neighbours. Israel should not be allowed to continue to have different rules for Jews as for any other citizen (christian, Muslim, Druze, Bedouin).

There are two elements to the apartheid. One is what they do in the occupied territories, where it's overt oppression and terrorism. The other is more Jim-Crow style laws which are aimed at keeping Palestinians in Israel in their place (high poverty rates, not allowed to live in most communities).

I was suggesting a solution that would meet with the requirements of the Israelis. They want to recover the lands which constitute the "promised land" ...aka Israel as per 2000 years ago...the lands of the 12 tribes etc. If you have a look, that takes in the West Bank and parts of Jordan, syria, Lebanon etc.

 

[Markfs]

Netanyahu has done a good job of making Israel look more extreme than Hamas and Hezbollah. He's even making Iran look fairly moderate.
What a nutbag.

The polls in Israel show that the majority of Israelis like what Netty is doing. They don't like him, but they like what he is doing. I could waste my time finding the links but you can't change people's opinion on this issue. The narrative is that he is an isolated nutmeg, but there are far more extreme people in his gov't.

 

[Saint]

I was suggesting a solution that would meet with the requirements of the Israelis. They want to recover the lands which constitute the "promised land" ...aka Israel as per 2000 years ago...the lands of the 12 tribes etc. If you have a look, that takes in the West Bank and parts of Jordan, syria, Lebanon etc.

Which is nonsense, obviously. The Judean people only ruled the surrounding areas for brief periods of time.

Places like Haifa, Jaffa and Ashkelon (or anywhere along the coast) were only briefly under nominal Judean rule in as much as they were part of the Roman Judean protectorate. They were never populated with Jewish people, ever in their history until the 1940's.

Those areas were under Egyptian, Christian or Zoroastrian rule a lot more of their history than they were nominally Judean. The area that they're claiming as "Greater Israel" was part of Roman Judea, but the Jews only really populated the inland areas around Jerusalem and up to Nazareth.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Why would Israel be "newly enlarged"?

The state goes back to the 1967 borders before Israel attacked and invaded their neighbours. Israel should not be allowed to continue to have different rules for Jews as for any other citizen (christian, Muslim, Druze, Bedouin).

There are two elements to the apartheid. One is what they do in the occupied territories, where it's overt oppression and terrorism. The other is more Jim-Crow style laws which are aimed at keeping Palestinians in Israel in their place (high poverty rates, not allowed to live in most communities).

Hang on. Why are most of the Arab nations allowed to have different rules?

Go have a look at other Arab nations.
Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc and see if they have different rules for Christian’s rather than Muslims… let alone Iran. Most countries won’t let you become a citizen and if you convert from Islam to Christianity you are legally punishable by death. Let alone if you fall foul of sharia law in some of those countries.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Hang on. Why are most of the Arab nations allowed to have different rules?

Go have a look at other Arab nations.
Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc and see if they have different rules for Christian’s rather than Muslims… let alone Iran. Most countries won’t let you become a citizen and if you convert from Islam to Christianity you are legally punishable by death. Let alone if you fall foul of sharia law in some of those countries.

Typical whataboutism from you.

Why do you give Israel a free pass for UNSC violations, illegal occupation, apartheid and ethnic cleansing?

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Hang on. Why are most of the Arab nations allowed to have different rules?

Go have a look at other Arab nations.
Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc and see if they have different rules for Christian’s rather than Muslims… let alone Iran. Most countries won’t let you become a citizen and if you convert from Islam to Christianity you are legally punishable by death. Let alone if you fall foul of sharia law in some of those countries.

Yes you need to get rid of Islamism like this guy suggests.
Unfortunately I think he almost zero chance.

 

[Saint]

Yes you need to get rid of Islamism like this guy suggests.
Unfortunately I think he almost zero chance.

Yeah, you'd totally trust the head of the coup and corrupt Pahlavi regime with democracy?

You really don't know anything about Iranian history if you're posting this as if the west would like to help Iran towards Democracy. It's the US/UK overthrow of democracy in Iran with the Pahlavis which led to Islamism taking hold.

For those who don't want to look it up. Iran had a democracy under Mossadegh, but he took the oil concessions off the US and UK companies who had corruptly bribed their way to those concessions. The US and UK overthrew Mossadegh, installed the corrupt Pahlavis and eventually there was a popular revolution and in the vacuum, the clerics took over.

Try to understand Iran even a little bit before posting stuff like this.

This is like Burma wanting to be head of the UNHCR

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

Yeah, you'd totally trust the head of the coup and corrupt Pahlavi regime with democracy?

You really don't know anything about Iranian history if you're posting this as if the west would like to help Iran towards Democracy. It's the US/UK overthrow of democracy in Iran with the Pahlavis which led to Islamism taking hold.

For those who don't want to look it up. Iran had a democracy under Mossadegh, but he took the oil concessions off the US and UK companies who had corruptly bribed their way to those concessions. The US and UK overthrew Mossadegh, installed the corrupt Pahlavis and eventually there was a popular revolution and in the vacuum, the clerics took over.

Try to understand Iran even a little bit before posting stuff like this.

This is like Burma wanting to be head of the UNHCR

Trying to get rid of Islamism like he suggests is what i said, not that he should be leader.
Surely you agree with the premise of his comments or are you an Islamist?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Even in Saudi Arabia its a bit of a balancing act for them to appease the fanatic religious groups in the country.
If they try to relax the Islamic side of things too much they invite revolt.

 

[Saint]

Hang on. Why are most of the Arab nations allowed to have different rules?

Go have a look at other Arab nations.
Saudi Arabia, Qatar etc and see if they have different rules for Christian’s rather than Muslims… let alone Iran. Most countries won’t let you become a citizen and if you convert from Islam to Christianity you are legally punishable by death. Let alone if you fall foul of sharia law in some of those countries.

I agree, no nation should have laws based on race or ethnicity, Islamic or Jewish or Christian or Buddhist or Hindu. Any.

And the ones who do, should be disqualified from any form of defence treaty or defence trade with Australia, just like we did with Sth Africa.

I suppose the level of oppression matters too. For example, what's happening in the West Bank is worse than what happened in Sth Africa, but what's happening within Israel is not as bad.

 

[Saint]

Trying to get rid of Islamism like he suggests is what i said, not that he should be leader.
Surely you agree with the premise of his comments or are you an Islamist?

The whole thing is abject nonsense and lies like "45 years ago.....". Iran is a problem because they're upsetting the Saudi regime (rulers of the two holy mosques)?

Have a look at the oppression of the SAVAK under the Pahlavi regime. It was as bad as the Islamist rules of Iran have ever been.

He wants to swap one type of oppression for a different type of oppression. It was his family who overthrew democracy. Nobody in Iran wants him back (Oh, I'm sure there's some old military families who long for another military dictatorship). They're not an historic royal family, they just declared themselves royal when they launched a military coup in the 1920's.

This is like Pauline Hanson telling you that she'll run the next Voice referendum. Maybe there's a good message in there, but it's completely shrouded in bad ones.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Typical whataboutism from you.

Why do you give Israel a free pass for UNSC violations, illegal occupation, apartheid and ethnic cleansing?

Its not whataboutism. I'm not disagreeing with what saint said. I'm just exploring whether the same expectations we have of Israel are shared by those surrounding arab countries. I think its valid, because if we expect Israel to hold such standards that are not shared by its Neighbours and opponents, i think we are being unrealistic in our expectations for how they run their country.

 

[Saint]

Its not whataboutism. I'm not disagreeing with what saint said. I'm just exploring whether the same expectations we have of Israel are shared by those surrounding arab countries. I think its valid, because if we expect Israel to hold such standards that are not shared by its Neighbours and opponents, i think we are being unrealistic in our expectations for how they run their country.

The main element to consider is to what extent we engage with these countries which do not hold the same values as ourselves.

It's valid to question what standard Israel are to be held to. In my eyes, if we're going to do the kind of weapons trade we do with Israel, we should question how those weapons are used or the money we give to weapons companies are funding other activities. They need to be held to a higher standard than other countries. At the moment, they're a loooooong way from being worthy of weapons trade.

We don't do weapons trade with Iran, Sudan, Hamas or Syria, so I don't think comparing an Australian citizen's expectations of those countries to our expectations of Israel are valid. I'm happy to compare them all to each other, but in the context of the Australian Govt, the depth of relationship should change the standard we expect.

If we weren't doing weapons trade with Israel, I'd be less concerned with the current Govt's actions. I think we should have sanctions on Israel like we did with Sth Africa or Hezbollah or Iran for the genocide they're undertaking.

I would expect that if the Australian Govt wanted to buy or sell weapons with Iran, that we'd not even consider it until they stopped supplying weapons to Hamas or Hezbollah. We should probably say the same thing about the US tbh. The way they're unquestioningly supplying weapons to a conflict which we, and most of the world, have called for an immediate ceasefire should give pause to our defence arrangements with the US. Is Pine Gap being used to aid the killing civilians? We should absolutely know the answer to this question.

 

[HirdsTheWord]

Completely wrong. The Nazi regime fell because the Red Army defeated it. Millions having sacrificed their lives in a war of annihilation against the Nazi armies, the Red Army had by 1944 become an irresistable force.

The Red Army rolled through Eastern Europe on to Berlin.

When the Allies saw that the Red Army had vanquished the Wehrmacht, they quickly organised their "second front" to invade Europe from the west in order to prevent the Red Army from progressing too far.

The much lauded "second front" was not aimed against the Nazi regime, it was aimed against the Red Army.

I wouldn't say the red army defeated it, they were just fighting on the weaker front because the bulk of Nazi forces were fighting on the rest of the allies on the western front.

 

[Not Important]

 

[Not Important]

good ol’ alan, spouting his propaganda again, being demolished.



on the other hand, a man of peace, conviction, and a social conscience

 

[Not Important]

Well, we agree there.

I have said extremist Zionism needs to go also.

as a matter of interest, what's the defining difference between the teachings of zionism and the practice of "extreme " zionism?

 

[Aristotle Pickett]

The polls in Israel show that the majority of Israelis like what Netty is doing. They don't like him, but they like what he is doing. I could waste my time finding the links but you can't change people's opinion on this issue. The narrative is that he is an isolated nutmeg, but there are far more extreme people in his gov't.

What poll is that?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Please don't post the Crackhead Barney flag video currently doing the rounds on twitter.

Cheers.