Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack III

[sdfc]

Its Israeli law that nearly all citizens have to do military service.
So you'd think that a considerable amount of those in the IDF are conscripted.

Does that mean that the extremely poor behaviour and attitude is a reflection of the wider community?
If you were actually a left wing pacifist in that environment, ( conscripted into the military ) you'd be really messed up about what your colleagues are doing.

It's a function of dehumanising the enemy.

 

[treeebeard]

Its Israeli law that nearly all citizens have to do military service.
So you'd think that a considerable amount of those in the IDF are conscripted.

Does that mean that the extremely poor behaviour and attitude is a reflection of the wider community?
If you were actually a left wing pacifist in that environment, ( conscripted into the military ) you'd be really messed up about what your colleagues are doing.

Don't they bush people who refuse to join.

Has Yair done his service yet?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Don't they bush people who refuse to join.

Has Yair done his service yet?

Refusal to serve in the Israel Defense Forces - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are plenty who go to jail on their principles.
But i'd suggest that there are plenty of others who will do their military duty, rather than cause a ruckus and go to Jail. Surely some of those would be appalled by the gung ho raping and pillaging by their colleagues.

--------------------------------

Shministim movement​

On April 28, 1970, a group of high school seniors about to be drafted sent a letter to Prime Minister Golda Meir expressing their reservation about the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, the War of Attrition and the government's failure to take steps to avoid conflict. In 1987, a new group was formed, also made up of high school students intent on refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories. They gave themselves the name that the press used to dub the previous effort – 'Shministim' (Hebrew: שמיניסטים, lit. 'twelfth graders'"). In 2001, a high-school refusers movement – also called Shministim followed in their stead. Over 3,000 Israeli high school students are currently members of Shministim. [citation needed]. A smaller number of them have also signed a public letter in which they state their intent to refuse any service in the army. Such a behaviour has usually resulted in repeated jail sentences of several weeks. One of the most prominent Shiministim that went to jail is Omer Goldman. Her case received special attention since her father used to be one of the highest ranking Mossad officers.

On December 18, 2008, a worldwide campaign was launched in order to request the freedom of Shministim, including the delivery of more than forty thousand letters, to Israeli embassies, appealing for her cause

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[sdfc]

The Israelis seem to be threatening to take out the Iranian leadership so I suppose all bets are off.

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[Johnny_Dogg4]

 

[ferball]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

"Pity they missed."

 

[Blue1980]

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

"Pity they missed."

I’m sure some pearl clutches will get angry with what you said.

Ignore the dead Palestinians, Lebanese and leaders Bibi has got killed, this is diff cos Israeli and their lives worth more.

 

[ferball]

I’m sure some pearl clutches will get angry with what you said.

Ignore the dead Palestinians, Lebanese and leaders Bibi has got killed, this is diff cos Israeli and their lives worth more.

Its not just that.

If he dies the chances of the war ending increase. Cos as soon as it stops and normality is restored he's off to prison for being a corrupt prick.

 

[Not Important]

gaza >

“ to my knowledge, the worst medical man-made disaster in human history”



alexei is a man with a strong sense of right and wrong

 

[Not Important]

hamas, with all its failings, is the means to an end

 

[Not Important]

the power of having control of the narrative.

 

[Blue1980]

Its not just that.

If he dies the chances of the war ending increase. Cos as soon as it stops and normality is restored he's off to prison for being a corrupt prick.

Yes but those behind Bibi are bloodthirsty extremists.

So if they knock off Bibi it would be an excuse to go even harder.

Not that it’s a reason that Bibi shouldn’t be killed mind you.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

hamas, with all its failings, is the means to an end

Im not suggesting that is or isn't their objective, but in Gaza alone there are about 2 million Palestinians, with approx 40,000 dead....seems they have a long way to go if that is in fact their objective.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Im not suggesting that is or isn't their objective, but in Gaza alone there are about 2 million Palestinians, with approx 40,000 dead....seems they have a long way to go if that is in fact their objective.

The way I see it is Israel's aim is to make life such a living misery that the Palestinians file for refugee status and leave their land outright. They're mindful of how U.S opinion might turn if Netanyahu went 'full Hitler', not because he values Palestinian lives, but because he's wary of that great tap of military aid being shut off.

Making life in Palestine unlivable is the goal instead.

However if surrounding nations said yes to taking in Palestinian refugees in greater numbers this would solidify the genocide and Israel, feeling a final solution is in sight, would push even harder with the misery to cleanse the land.

 

[Not Important]

Im not suggesting that is or isn't their objective, but in Gaza alone there are about 2 million Palestinians, with approx 40,000 dead....seems they have a long way to go if that is in fact their objective.

many of the zionist leadership have declared that's their objective, long before the hamas horrific attack that gave them the excuse.

i’m not surprised by your lack of concern for the 40,000 + dead, not to mention those with horrific injuries. many of whom are women and children, including babies. the fact is that is an estimate as there are countless numbers still under the rubble caused by the terrorists. then there’s the moonscape they have left and the gigantic numbers of those who have no home, don’t know where their next meal is coming from, or what the future holds. frankly, you are a disgrace. achy, blakey no heart.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

The way I see it is Israel's aim is to make life such a living misery that the Palestinians file for refugee status and leave their land outright. They're mindful of how U.S opinion might turn if Netanyahu went 'full Hitler', not because he values Palestinian lives, but because he's wary of that great tap of military aid being shut off.

Making life in Palestine unlivable is the goal instead.

However if surrounding nations said yes to taking in Palestinian refugees in greater numbers this would solidify the genocide and Israel, feeling a final solution is in sight, would push even harder with the misery to cleanse the land.

Mass displacement is reprehensible in itself, but it’s not in the pure sense ‘genocide’.

But I see your point.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

many of the zionist leadership have declared that's their objective, long before the hamas horrific attack that gave them the excuse.

i’m not surprised by your lack of concern for the 40,000 + dead, not to mention those with horrific injuries. many of whom are women and children, including babies. the fact is that is an estimate as there are countless numbers still under the rubble caused by the terrorists. then there’s the moonscape they have left and the gigantic numbers of those who have no home, don’t know where their next meal is coming from, or what the future holds. frankly, you are a disgrace. achy, blakey no heart.

My point was not debating the tragedy of 40k lives. It’s awful. It’s hideous.

I was just raising the point for discussion, because we throw the word ‘genocide’ around quite casually, as well as comparisons to Hitlers genocide. I’m not convinced either way at this point tbh that doesn’t make it any less tragic or damming of Bibi.

If the holocaust/hitler is the benchmark as many sympathetic to the Palestinian cause have expressed in here…..over 60% of the entire Jewish population was killed, less than 1/3 of European Jews survived and 1.7% of Europes entire total population was wiped out.

To reach these heights the Israeli government would be looking at the extermination of about 1.3 million Gazan Palestinians.

I’m not suggesting that genocide only occurs at this severity, however whilst people continue to equivocate the two, it’s worth analysing the data.

There’s no need to resort to personal attacks mate. It’s doesn’t help, but I get why you are angry.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

My point was not debating the tragedy of 40k lives. It’s awful. It’s hideous.

I was just raising the point for discussion, because we throw the word ‘genocide’ around quite casually, as well as comparisons to Hitlers genocide. I’m not convinced either way at this point tbh that doesn’t make it any less tragic or damming of Bibi.

If the holocaust/hitler is the benchmark as many sympathetic to the Palestinian cause have expressed in here…..over 60% of the entire Jewish population was killed, less than 1/3 of European Jews survived and 1.7% of Europes entire total population was wiped out.

To reach these heights the Israeli government would be looking at the extermination of about 1.3 million Gazan Palestinians.

I’m not suggesting that genocide only occurs at this severity, however whilst people continue to equivocate the two, it’s worth analysing the data.

There’s no need to resort to personal attacks mate. It’s doesn’t help, but I get why you are angry.

The point is to stop genocide, not wait until it reaches the Hitler threshold.
There is a checklist, and what Israel is doing seems to qualify it as genocidal.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

The point is to stop genocide, not wait until it reaches the Hitler threshold.
There is a checklist, and what Israel is doing seems to qualify it as genocidal.

Of course but I’m interested at what point it becomes genocide.
Given the stated intent of Hamas and if capable what they would do to Israel, have they also committed an act of genocide?

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Of course but I’m interested at what point it becomes genocide.
Given the stated intent of Hamas and if capable what they would do to Israel, have they also committed an act of genocide?

Israel have killed more Palestinians by a factor of what, x50 in the past 12 months? x100 over the past decade?

Hamas aren't cutting off food, water and medical supplies to Israel, for example.

Then there's the illegal occupation, apartheid and displacement etc.

 

[Achy Blakey Heart]

Israel have killed more Palestinians by a factor of what, x50 in the past 12 months? x100 over the past decade?

Hamas aren't cutting off food, water and medical supplies to Israel, for example.

Then there's the illegal occupation, apartheid and displacement etc.

Of course but proportional deaths of both sides is not really what defines genocide.

I’m tending toward it being genocide, but I’m not the sort of person who just hears slogans and believes them because they are shouted at rallies.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Of course but proportional deaths of both sides is not really what defines genocide.

I’m tending toward it being genocide, but I’m not the sort of person who just hears slogans and believes them because they are shouted at rallies.

I'd rather accuse them of genocide and it not be, than ignore it only to find out that it is when it's too late.

 

[CM86]

Im not suggesting that is or isn't their objective, but in Gaza alone there are about 2 million Palestinians, with approx 40,000 dead....seems they have a long way to go if that is in fact their objective.

This is such a hateful and disgusting talking point.

It keeps being repeated without any thought or humanity.

'If they wanted to genocide them, they're not doing a very good job'.
What are the metrics for that, exactly?

It's such a sick and twisted retort.
I don't agree that genocide is the correct term for it. But to pretend that there are not deliberate actions that are increasingly leading to the destruction of Palestinians in Gaza, is evil.

To just use the number of reported deaths is so insane to me. As if survivors are completely fine.
As if almost all of the infrastructure required to survive in Gaza is still standing and useable.
Disease, infection, trauma, economy, education, births, radicalisation, survivors guilt...

Even when the war eventually ends, the deaths will continue.
That's why people are talking about genocide... Because it's not just about the reported number of deaths, it's all of the other actions that will continue to harm Palestinians for decades.


There are still Jews living in Germany today, does that mean the actions were less somehow?
Not all Jews were wiped out to extinction, does that lessen the evil somehow?
Of course not, that would be such a hateful and disgusting thing to say.
So why is it ok in regards to Palestinians in Gaza??


This whole discussion is becoming so manipulated and warped by online discourse.

The bravery of being out of range.