Jack Ginnivan - Redemption arc

[peetoo]

AFL are a strange institution. Next time someone goes up to the MRO for retaliating, I wonder if they'll follow this example and apply the "He started it" principal when issuing their consequence.

But the reality is fines aren't for what you do - they're for it becoming a media story. Eg. You don't get fined if you get caught doing drugs they've got a non-fine protocl around that - but you do get fined if there's a negative media story or photo of you doing drugs. And the media making this a negative story were Hawks making it a negative story about Kenny - not Sic.

And you are dissing hawks fans for going whattabout. Ken was a dick. I’d preferred if Sicily responded in a cooler manner reminding him he is senior coach. But the story starts and ends with him.

 

[sr36]

And you are dissing hawks fans for going whattabout. Ken was a dick. I’d preferred if Sicily responded in a cooler manner reminding him he is senior coach. But the story starts and ends with him.

Whattaboutism is diverting to protect someone or an idea. I'm not saying Kenny wasn't a dick - a funny dick but a dick nonetheless. It's Hawks whattabouting - back to Kenny and only Kenny whenever Sicily's part in it is brought up.

The bolded is perfect. And it's all the Hawks should have said regarding Sic- rather than running with pride. Who gives a shit if he got really emotional and found an outlet that was ultimately harmless after a gutting loss, but it's not a thing to be proud of, or to be encouraging - if we're going with "bad look" and think of the kids who will copy - which seems to be the angle with Kenny - don't encourage Sicily's response.

 

[peetoo]

I’m reminded of how the great Michael Tuck admonished the AFL after the 1991 gf presentation But it was his 18th year.
Around 1-12


Mind you I think the club did get a rap on th knuckles for putting a loaf of tip top bread in the cup (brereton)

 

[Hoops]

There’s always been a line that once the final siren goes you shake hands and move on.
That’s been the same for decades upon decades.

To pretend otherwise is blatant stupidity.

Was Ginni's tweet inside or outside that line?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Was Ginni's tweet inside or outside that line?

He made a comment on a mates insta, for starters.

Not one mention of Ken or Port.

Ken though directly called Ginnivan a “cheeky little ****head” multiple times after the siren.

I know which is worse.

 

[HairyO]

Unlike hodge, Mitchell, Derm..

Left Shaun Burgoyne out for a reason?

He was just as critical.

 

[Cyclops]

Hawks didn’t get a ‘please explain’ from AFL. So you need to load a few more groups in your (except)

It’s said AFL partly imposed the fine because the port heirarchy wasn’t convincingly apologetic

It's also said Sicily is a crybaby.

I find persuasive the argument that fine reflects the AFL over reacting to McCartneys actual physical contact with a player.

The AFL Isn't exactly the gold standard for ethical consistent rulings. It's nice they are in the right hemisphere as far as Ken's slap goes.

They missed Sicilys embarrassing protracted ill humoured outburst.

I guess Hawks are happy that a hulking fit young man can hurl abuse in the face of an older person from a poorer community?

 

[Cyclops]

Left Shaun Burgoyne out for a reason?

He was just as critical.

Let's not.

 

[Back One Out]

it's a relevant comment to make because what you said is laughably embarrassing.

1) all of these ex hawk greats had dummy spits over this
2) the captain had a meltdown over a dumb remark
3) the coach had a pathetic sook about it in his press conference.

none of those are "great mentors" for someone who'll continue to do stupid shit. that's life.

None of these things occurred

1) The ex-Hawks in the media (Hodge, Lewis, Burgoyne & Derm) expressed their opinions as commentators just like every other commentator did. That's their job. Their opinion was shared by the majority of commentators and pundits... i.e. Ken Hinkley was out of line with his carry-on after the game. Good "theatre", etc... It gives everyone something to talk about, but it was totally unnecessary. Far more disrespectful than anything Ginnivan did in the lead up.

What do people expect from them as commentators?

"No comment! Due to my past historical connections with the Hawthorn football club, I believe it would betray a confict of interest if I was to give my opinion on the Ken Hinkley outburst. Over to you, Richo..."



2) Sicily was upset about missing his set shot with a minute left to play. The he heard Hinkley repeatedly shouting to Ginnivan, "You're not going anywhere next week, you little f**kwit".

Not once or twice, but repeatedly because Ken could see he wasn't getting any reaction from the Hawks.

Sicily walked towards Hinkley and said "F**k off, you w***er."

It seemed to work. You could see Hinkley pipe down when he realised he'd probably overstepped the mark.



3) Mitchell never sooked about anything. God knows why people think this... Nuts... He pre-empted any media criticism of Sicily's post-game actions. He pointed out the opposition coach was being aggressive and confrontational towards Ginnivan and he was proud of his captain for standing up for his teammate.

The media asked Mitchell if he would speak to Ken about it and he replied "Absoutely not!" That's because Mitchell had ZERO interest in Hinkley's post-game bullshit. He had just lost a knockout final. He was shattered. The last thing he wanted to do is pour petrol on a stupid flare-up between his players and the oppo coach. So he shut it down. No more questions..

This Hinkley stuff was just an entertainment interlude for all you drama queen weirdos. Do you really think Sicily and Mitchell give 2 shits about it after the Hawks had just been eliminated from the finals in an agonisingly close game?

Gawd almighty...

 

[ThatsjustDappa]

Everyone (except Hawks) realises that it was a dick measuring contest, which requires more than one dick.

I count 3, with a few more having unzipped since.

Yeah it's a proper hawk tuah fest going on...

 

[peetoo]

None of these things occurred

1) The ex-Hawks in the media (Hodge, Lewis, Burgoyne & Derm) expressed their opinions as commentators just like every other commentator did. That's their job. Their opinion was shared by the majority of commentators and pundits... i.e. Ken Hinkley was out of line with his carry-on after the game. Good "theatre", etc... It gives everyone something to talk about, but it was totally unnecessary. Far more disrespectful than anything Ginnivan did in the lead up.

What do people expect from them as commentators?

"No comment! Due to my past historical connections with the Hawthorn football club, I believe it would betray a confict of interest if I was to give my opinion on the Ken Hinkley outburst. Over to you, Richo..."



2) Sicily was upset about missing his set shot with a minute left to play. The he heard Hinkley repeatedly shouting to Ginnivan, "You're not going anywhere next week, you little f**kwit".

Not once or twice, but repeatedly because Ken could see he wasn't getting any reaction from the Hawks.

Sicily walked towards Hinkley and said "F**k off, you w***er."

It seemed to work. You could see Hinkley pipe down when he realised he'd probably overstepped the mark.



3) Mitchell never sooked about anything. God knows why people think this... Nuts... He pre-empted any media criticism of Sicily's post-game actions. He pointed out the opposition coach was being aggressive and confrontational towards Ginnivan and he was proud of his captain for standing up for his teammate.

The media asked Mitchell if he would speak to Ken about it and he replied "Absoutely not!" That's because Mitchell had ZERO interest in Hinkley's post-game bullshit. He had just lost a knockout final. He was shattered. The last thing he wanted to do is pour petrol on a stupid flare-up between his players and the oppo coach. So he shut it down. No more questions..

This Hinkley stuff was just an entertainment interlude for all you drama queen weirdos. Do you really think Sicily and Mitchell give 2 shits about it after the Hawks had just been eliminated from the finals in an agonisingly close game?

Gawd almighty...

Kenny’s comments were for his own players benefit. Stupid smirks all round. Pathetic really.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

AFL are a strange institution. Next time someone goes up to the MRO for retaliating, I wonder if they'll follow this example and apply the "He started it" principal when issuing their consequence.

But the reality is fines aren't for what you do - they're for it becoming a media story. Eg. You don't get fined if you get caught doing drugs they've got a non-fine protocl around that - but you do get fined if there's a negative media story or photo of you doing drugs. And the media making this a negative story were Hawks making it a negative story about Kenny - not Sicily. They ignored the over the top retaliation.

“Over the top retaliation”. The amount of excuses you want to give for a coach stupid enough to engage in taunting players after a final siren is amazing.

What sort of plonker do you have to be to think that any captain is going to stand by and let one of his players get abused by an oppo coach after the siren in a cut throat final?

Ken has form in this area as other clubs know, it wasn’t a first offense, and wasn’t the first time he’s mouthed off at Hawks after the siren according to Sicily and Mitchell.

 

[Vindicater]

“Over the top retaliation”. The amount of excuses you want to give for a coach stupid enough to engage in taunting players after a final siren is amazing.

What sort of plonker do you have to be to think that any captain is going to stand by and let one of his players get abused by an oppo coach after the siren in a cut throat final?

Ken has form in this area as other clubs know, it wasn’t a first offense, and wasn’t the first time he’s mouthed off at Hawks after the siren according to Sicily and Mitchell.

I don't think anybody should have been fined but if they were going to fine somebody it would have been Ken because he started it.

Sicily did the right thing at first by telling him to shut the **** up.

Ken then did.

Up to that point I think we can agree.

What was your thoughts then on Sicily continuing to jaw at Hinkley while almost dropping Bruest, despite Hinkley well and truly being shut up by this point (Personally I reckon Ken knew he had ****ed up after Sicily first returned serve)

 

[sr36]

“Over the top retaliation”. The amount of excuses you want to give for a coach stupid enough to engage in taunting players after a final siren is amazing.

What sort of plonker do you have to be to think that any captain is going to stand by and let one of his players get abused by an oppo coach after the siren in a cut throat final?

Ken has form in this area as other clubs know, it wasn’t a first offense, and wasn’t the first time he’s mouthed off at Hawks after the siren according to Sicily and Mitchell.

I wasn't talking about ken or making excuses for him.

It seems to me that you're judging Ken's behaviour as outside the field of play, but Sicily's as within the field of play.

Within the field of play - they're both fine. Standard occurrence.

Outside of the field of play - Ken was being a smartarse and you're portraying him as abusive.

Here's how leaders are trained to deal with abusive situations outside of the footy field - which is how you're portraying and judging Kenny.

Step 1: Diffuse the abusive situation. DO NOT ESCALATE IT.
Step 2 Check if the person being abused is OK.
Step 3 Calmly talk to the abuser to tell them that the abuse was inappropropriate and reduce the chance of it occurring again. DO NOT ESCALATE IT,

Here's the leadership in the situation that you're portraying as both outside the field of play and abusive and are proud of.

Step 1: The situation was already diffused. ESCALATE IT. Kicking off more abuse
Step 2: CONTINUE ESACALATION and nearly drop the bloke you were chairing off
Step 3 Say how proud you are about it and that you wouldn't do anything differently

Ultimately, he didn't help Ginnivan one iota - he just made Ginnivan cop a heap more shit throughout the following week. How was it effective leadership or effectively sticking up for Ginnivan? It was just a bit of macho posturing that made things worse for the guy he was supposedly sticking up for.

Personally though, I just think Kenny was being a smartarse and an already upset Sicily found something to vent about.
And rather than just say they weren't happy with Kenny's reaction and that Sicily could have handled it better. Hawks have gone all in on Kenny being a villain and Sicily being a hero. It's ridiculous.

The only place where Sicily's reaction is good leadership is within the field of play, but you're making a huge deal out of it not being within the field of play.

 

[peetoo]

,nearly drop’ that’s a new one.

Personally it reckon bruests at fault for having a 300th

 

[Port 2004]

“Over the top retaliation”. The amount of excuses you want to give for a coach stupid enough to engage in taunting players after a final siren is amazing.

What sort of plonker do you have to be to think that any captain is going to stand by and let one of his players get abused by an oppo coach after the siren in a cut throat final?

Ken has form in this area as other clubs know, it wasn’t a first offense, and wasn’t the first time he’s mouthed off at Hawks after the siren according to Sicily and Mitchell.

Hawks supporters would be well versed with a coach taunting oppositions players.

 

[hawkman]

Hawks supporters would be well versed with a coach taunting oppositions players.

Like?

For all of Clarkson's many faults as far as I recall he never went taunting the opposition after a win.

 

[sr36]

,nearly drop’ that’s a new one.

Personally it reckon bruests at fault for having a 300th

Tha Hawk way on this one - ignore everything other than trying to find one thing where you think you can make a point.

Ken said ****wit. He said ****wit. Sicily was great.

You said he nearly dropped him. Ha ha.

OK, yes you're right. This is a tale of a villain - Kenny - and a hero - Sicily. I can't wait for the Disney movie. Gary Oldman would make a good Kenny.

 

[peetoo]

Tha Hawk way on this one - ignore everything other than trying to find one thing where you think you can make a point.

Ken said ****wit. He said ****wit. Sicily was great.

You said he nearly dropped him. Ha ha.

OK, yes you're right. This is a tale of a villain - Kenny - and a hero - Sicily. I can't wait for the Disney movie. Gary Oldman would make a good Kenny.

Danny zuko

 

[hawkman]

Esava did something

 

[peetoo]

Tha Hawk way on this one - ignore everything other than trying to find one thing where you think you can make a point.

Ken said ****wit. He said ****wit. Sicily was great.

You said he nearly dropped him. Ha ha.

OK, yes you're right. This is a tale of a villain - Kenny - and a hero - Sicily. I can't wait for the Disney movie. Gary Oldman would make a good Kenny.

You said Sicily nearly dropped Bruest lol

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I wasn't talking about ken or making excuses for him.

It seems to me that you're judging Ken's behaviour as outside the field of play, but Sicily's as within the field of play.

Within the field of play - they're both fine. Standard occurrence.

Outside of the field of play - Ken was being a smartarse and you're portraying him as abusive.

Here's how leaders are trained to deal with abusive situations outside of the footy field - which is how you're portraying and judging Kenny.

Step 1: Diffuse the abusive situation. DO NOT ESCALATE IT.
Step 2 Check if the person being abused is OK.
Step 3 Calmly talk to the abuser to tell them that the abuse was inappropropriate and reduce the chance of it occurring again. DO NOT ESCALATE IT,

Here's the leadership in the situation that you're portraying as both outside the field of play and abusive and are proud of.

Step 1: The situation was already diffused. ESCALATE IT. Kicking off more abuse
Step 2: CONTINUE ESACALATION and nearly drop the bloke you were chairing off
Step 3 Say how proud you are about it and that you wouldn't do anything differently

Ultimately, he didn't help Ginnivan one iota - he just made Ginnivan cop a heap more shit throughout the following week. How was it effective leadership or effectively sticking up for Ginnivan? It was just a bit of macho posturing that made things worse for the guy he was supposedly sticking up for.

Personally though, I just think Kenny was being a smartarse and an already upset Sicily found something to vent about.
And rather than just say they weren't happy with Kenny's reaction and that Sicily could have handled it better. Hawks have gone all in on Kenny being a villain and Sicily being a hero. It's ridiculous.

The only place where Sicily's reaction is good leadership is within the field of play, but you're making a huge deal out of it not being within the field of play.

Struggled to make my way through all of that. What a laugh.

Ken wasn’t abusive you say. So if you’re walking down the street and someone calls your mate a “****head” it’s all good then? Couldn’t be abusive?

Of course, you would want to say anything back. No, that would escalate the situation.

What a laugh. The amount of mental gymnastics you’ve done for the last 10 pages to claim that Ginnivan was in the wrong, Sicily was in the wrong, Mitchell was in the wrong, the big bad Hawks were the problem and that Kenny was just having a friendly bit of banter after the siren has been laughable.

 

[peetoo]

Commentary trying to read something into rampe forearm. Just rubbish

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

What was your thoughts then on Sicily continuing to jaw at Hinkley while almost dropping Bruest, despite Hinkley well and truly being shut up by this point (Personally I reckon Ken knew he had ****ed up after Sicily first returned serve)

I could understand it, he was rightly pissed off by Hinkley’s smug taunts, and as I have pointed out it wasn’t the first time it’s occurred. There’s history.

I find the “he nearly dropped Bruest” a load of crap to be honest.

 

[sr36]

Ken wasn’t abusive you say. So if you’re walking down the street and someone calls your mate a “****head” it’s all good then? Couldn’t be abusive?

Of course, you would want to say anything back. No, that would escalate the situation.

What a laugh. The amount of mental gymnastics you’ve done for the last 10 pages to claim that Ginnivan was in the wrong, Sicily was in the wrong, Mitchell was in the wrong, the big bad Hawks were the problem and that Kenny was just having a friendly bit of banter after the siren has been laughable.

A) I didn't say Ken wasn't abusive. I don't know or care.

B) If someone starts abusing my mate when I'm walking down the street, of course I'm not escalating it. I'm getting me and my mate away from it. An then we're laughing about the dickhead later. I'm not a complete moron. Are you?