Leigh Matthews - Best Ruck Duo

[The Falcon Strike]

Yes, I do realise there is more to football than stats and more to rucks than hitouts. But for what it's worth...

Total hit-outs/ team in finals
West Coast 1098
Carlton 931
Sydney 928
Essendon 922
Hawthorn 881
Geelong 854
St Kilda 788
Collingwood 719

Doesn't really show too much, with most teams around the same figure but interesting that Collingwood are so far behind, even after such a dominant year.

It's a completely misleading stat - Sydney as an example have massive hitouts because they create a stoppage game. In the game against Sydney this year - WC had 68 hitouts - i believe the most all year by our club.

Here's a *better* stat - although still with flaws. It's the hitout differential of teams.

WC 17.3
Carlton 6
Hawthorn 2.4
Essendon 1.9
Geelong -0.5
Sydney -3.3
St Kilda -7
Collingwood -10.2

 

[The Falcon Strike]

You kinda proved my point? He managed it for a month at the start of the season and got hurt? Imagine how he would have gone if he had to do it all year?

Naitanui is a talent, but he's also 21. It's not a huge knock on him to say that he wouldn't stand up as well as a number one ruck all year as guys like Cox and Mumford and Ottens.

Sandilands missed games due to injury as well, As has Ottens, Jolly - are these guys not up to being number 1 ruck as well?

 

[lamaros]

Sandilands missed games due to injury as well, As has Ottens, Jolly - are these guys not up to being number 1 ruck as well?

Ottens and Jolly are coming to the end of their careers, to be sure.

Naitanui is 21. He has time. I don't know why you West Coast supporters have to push him as the best player in the competition right now, he's clearly in the shadow of Cox in your ruck division.

 

[lamaros]

It's a completely misleading stat - Sydney as an example have massive hitouts because they create a stoppage game. In the game against Sydney this year - WC had 68 hitouts - i believe the most all year by our club.

Here's a *better* stat - although still with flaws. It's the hitout differential of teams.

WC 17.3
Carlton 6
Hawthorn 2.4
Essendon 1.9
Geelong -0.5
Sydney -3.3
St Kilda -7
Collingwood -10.2

Where did you get this stat from?

 

[Ducky Tie]

Eagles
Swan
Cats
Dons
Saints
Pies
Hawks
Blues

 

[themarkedman72]

Ryder (B)/Hille (B) Ryder is soft and lazy, not 2 attributes that Lethal cant stand. Hille is a solid workmanlike ruck but no star of the game.

Cox (A+)/Naitanui (B+) no.1 by a mile

Ottens (A) /West (C+) Ottens is a star but West is far from really being a good player. Needs 5 more years in the system to be a dominant ruck.

Kossie (D)/McEvoy (A-): Kossie is a liability. Has some god moments. Mcevoy has had a breakout year. Good ruckman

Mumford (A+)/White (C+) Mummy is a hard as nails star...white is tough but raw.

Jolly (B+)/Wood (C-): Wood is young and soft, easily pushed off the ball. Jolly is a star but has had injuries and a tough year.

Hale (A-)/Bailey (A-): Bailey has had a breakout year and is physically strong. Hale is the best 2nd ruck outside the eagles duo and possibly the bombers but they ahve 2 B grade ruckmen and both ahve had poor seasons.

Kreuzer (C+)/Warnock (B+): Warnock is soft and easily pushed off the ball according to Lethal...Kreuzer is a gun but still young and had an injury plagued season. Stats just mean Blues had an easy draw. thus meaningless

I actually think Lethal is about right. The hawks arent great but they just have had a better season than alot of previously highly regarded rucks like Jolly, Hille , Kreuzer, etc etc.

I actually think that melbourne and Freo are better than many listed here.

 

[Ricmel]

Top 2 do not surprise me. After that it seems more rated on reputation and years past than 2011.

Both Carlton and Saints line ups should be higher on this year. Cats should be lower.

 

[lamaros]

RE: themarkedman72

The goggles are on hey?

Unless by "the hawks arent great but they just have had a better season" you mean "Hawthorn has had a better season" you are seriously missing the boat.

 

[Blue and Silver]

On Carlton's ruck stocks:

Warnock is a very good tap ruckman, but falls behind on the around the ground stuff. Kreuzer is awesome around the ground, but only when fit.

Hampson did play for the first half of the year, and was no.1 briefly. In this time he performed well.

O'halpin is our Leigh Brown style cover when we need it. Is OK as a fill in.

All have missed portions of the year through injury, which will have adversely affected the stats.

 

[lamaros]

On Carlton's ruck stocks:

Warnock is a very good tap ruckman, but falls behind on the around the ground stuff. Kreuzer is awesome around the ground, but only when fit.

Hampson did play for the first half of the year, and was no.1 briefly. In this time he performed well.

O'halpin is our Leigh Brown style cover when we need it. Is OK as a fill in.

All have missed portions of the year through injury, which will have adversely affected the stats.

And their form coming in to finals.

I don't think this thread is about skill or potential, it's about form coming in to finals. Carlton and Collingwood both are struggling in this regard in their ruck divisions.

 

[Blue and Silver]

And their form coming in to finals.

I don't think this thread is about skill or potential, it's about form coming in to finals. Carlton and Collingwood both are struggling in this regard in their ruck divisions.

Warnock's tap form is as ever, excellent. Wins the hitouts in almost every game. Kreuzer's been playing almost entirely forward, so his ruck numbers are bound to look poor. With O'halpins return Kreuzer will spend more time in the ruck.

The form's alright IMO.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

Carlton for sure have one of the better duo's not sure why there 7th

Feels like this rating is more on potential at the minute.

Need to really bring it together in the coming week(s).

 

[Minhpho]

Good player...!!! I like him...!!!

 

[Nerv_01]

Ryder (B)/Hille (B) Ryder is soft and lazy, not 2 attributes that Lethal cant stand. Hille is a solid workmanlike ruck but no star of the game.

Cox (A+)/Naitanui (B+) no.1 by a mile

Ottens (A) /West (C+) Ottens is a star but West is far from really being a good player. Needs 5 more years in the system to be a dominant ruck.

Kossie (D)/McEvoy (A-): Kossie is a liability. Has some god moments. Mcevoy has had a breakout year. Good ruckman

Mumford (A+)/White (C+) Mummy is a hard as nails star...white is tough but raw.

Jolly (B+)/Wood (C-): Wood is young and soft, easily pushed off the ball. Jolly is a star but has had injuries and a tough year.

Hale (A-)/Bailey (A-): Bailey has had a breakout year and is physically strong. Hale is the best 2nd ruck outside the eagles duo and possibly the bombers but they ahve 2 B grade ruckmen and both ahve had poor seasons.

Kreuzer (C+)/Warnock (B+): Warnock is soft and easily pushed off the ball according to Lethal...Kreuzer is a gun but still young and had an injury plagued season. Stats just mean Blues had an easy draw. thus meaningless

I actually think Lethal is about right. The hawks arent great but they just have had a better season than alot of previously highly regarded rucks like Jolly, Hille , Kreuzer, etc etc.

I actually think that melbourne and Freo are better than many listed here.

Do a bit of research before you make a statement that is so blatantly wrong. Carlton have played Collingwood, Essendon, Sydney, St.Kilda and Richmond twice, 4 of these teams are finalists 3 of which Lethal rates as having better rucks than Carlton. I struggling to comprehend how you could even argue Carlton had a soft draw.

If those stats are made to look better by Carlton having an 'easy draw' then Hale and Bailey must be the worst on the list. Hawthorn have had the easiest draw in the competition playing these teams twice - Geelong, Fremantle, Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Gold Coast.

 

[QuietB]

I don't really care if the Hawks were 10th to be honest but don't underestimate how good Bailey has been this year. That is not potential, he has delivered consistant very high quality performances all year.

 

[Partridge]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/122905/default.aspx

In reference to the finals contenders Leigh Matthews rates each ruck duo from best to worst, the results are very surprising.

1. WCE - Nic Nat/ Cox
2. SYD - Mumford/white
3. Hawks - Bailey/Hale
4 GFC - Ottens/hawkins or west
5.Essendon - Ryder/Hille
6.Stkilda - McEvoy/Gardiner or Kossy
7.Carlton Warnock/Kreuzer
8.Collingwood Jolly/wood

He can't be serious with Hawkins in there. For one thing he's not a ruckman.

Ottens and West are proving a very useful combination. Ottens and Hawkins wouldn't be on the list.

 

[NYJetsfor2029]

I don't think Leigh is ranking them on anything other than how he expects them to perform over the next couple of weeks. In that regard (considering all immediate injuries and form) I think he has them pretty good.

 

[Arwib]

Mumford spends 85% of the time on ground. He's pretty decent as an actual ruckman but his strength is the way he smashes people at ground level and puts in the massive second efforts. He's also very good at using his body to the advantage of our inside midfielders. If we do win matches in the finals, this will be the key reason why.

Agree we don't really have a second ruckman, White and LRT have been pinch-hitting to some decent effect, but they're not quite real ruckmen. Next year keep an eye out for the Mumford-Pyke combo.

 

[BombayPolice]

Surprised to see the Swans up that high tbh. Would have us 3rd or 4th actually.

 

[BombayPolice]

Ryder (B)/Hille (B) Ryder is soft and lazy, not 2 attributes that Lethal cant stand. Hille is a solid workmanlike ruck but no star of the game.

Cox (A+)/Naitanui (B+) no.1 by a mile

Ottens (A) /West (C+) Ottens is a star but West is far from really being a good player. Needs 5 more years in the system to be a dominant ruck.

Kossie (D)/McEvoy (A-): Kossie is a liability. Has some god moments. Mcevoy has had a breakout year. Good ruckman

Mumford (A+)/White (C+) Mummy is a hard as nails star...white is tough but raw.

Jolly (B+)/Wood (C-): Wood is young and soft, easily pushed off the ball. Jolly is a star but has had injuries and a tough year.

Hale (A-)/Bailey (A-): Bailey has had a breakout year and is physically strong. Hale is the best 2nd ruck outside the eagles duo and possibly the bombers but they ahve 2 B grade ruckmen and both ahve had poor seasons.

Kreuzer (C+)/Warnock (B+): Warnock is soft and easily pushed off the ball according to Lethal...Kreuzer is a gun but still young and had an injury plagued season. Stats just mean Blues had an easy draw. thus meaningless

I actually think Lethal is about right. The hawks arent great but they just have had a better season than alot of previously highly regarded rucks like Jolly, Hille , Kreuzer, etc etc.

I actually think that melbourne and Freo are better than many listed here.

Hale = A-
Krezuer = C+

 

[still chasing amy]

LOL Hale and Bailey better than Kreuzer, Jolly, NicNat, Ryder and Hille? Thanks, its been a tough day at work but you've made me smile.

 

[CursoryMercenary]

Jollywood

I thought that was funny

 

[sgbn77]

LOL Hale and Bailey better than Kreuzer, Jolly, NicNat, Ryder and Hille? Thanks, its been a tough day at work but you've made me smile.

The only duo you compared Bailey/Hale to is the bombers duo, though?

The rest are individuals.

If this was a list of individuals, Hawthorn would be down the list...but it isn't.

Whether the opposition fans agree or not, is a matter of contention, but I deadset used to think we were cooked going into matches when the best ruckman we could muster was Renouf, Skipper or Taylor. Even the ability to breakeven by Campbell back in 2008 was diminished by the 5-10 mins each quarter that Taylor would play. It used to let the opposition back in.

But this season, from the minute he started playing, Bailey more than held his own, and (we all need to remember he is coming back from multiple knees) is improving solidly as the year progresses. Hale does little more than hold his own, or negate a ruck dual, yet is close to the best contested mark at the Hawks, and changes the dynamic of the forward line when he goes forward.

That spud who put the goals-kicked by ruckmen stat up, needs to bare in mind when Hale goes forward, he's standing next to Franklin and Rioli. Bit of context. When he goes forward, he demands a tall defender, and suddenly the other two are let off the leash.

On impact, and role played in a team, our ruck duo is one of the key reasons we are where we are this year. Make no mistake.

Jolly, Mumford, Sandilands and Ottens are downgraded AS A DUO on behalf of the fact that their "Robin" isn't playing as much of a role, or having the same impact as a Hale. But as individuals, I'd have all four in front of the Hawks best ruckman, in fact, if you got to choose just one ruckman from the whole AFL, I'd select any one of the four in front of either of the WCE rucks. But as a duo the WCE rucks are streets ahead.

 

[lamaros]

You have to consider, when Ryder goes forward and adds to his 27 goals, he has been demanding a tall defender, and/or knocking the ball down to small players.

Which has allowed players like Hurley, Crameri, Jetta, Monfries, Reimers & Zaharakis all to kick 25 goals or more this year.

Yes, we have 7 players who have kicked 25 or more, one of which is a Ryder.

Hawthorn have three, and Hale isn't one of them.

144 from your 25+ goalkickers + Hale.
198 from our 25+ goalkickers + Ryder.

I guess Ryder is doing a better job for our forwards than Hale is for yours?

 

[Blackas87]

Would if thought Mark Jamar and Stefan Martin would of been pretty high on that list, Melbourne finished 3rd overall in hitouts for the year and 2nd least hitouts against, finished 2nd in hitout differential only behind West Coast yet they aren't one of the top duo's in the comp???