Lions vs Cats vs Hawks - Which dynasty is the best?

[STFU Donnie]

Dear Nakia

Just to show you that I, unlike yourself, can acknowledge Geelong’s lead in some categories, please enjoy these.

Seasons wherein the team qualified for the finals, yet failed to win a single match:
Geelong 3
Hawthorn 1

Seasons wherein the team qualified for the finals in the Top 4, yet were dismissed in straight sets:
Geelong 1
Hawthorn 0

Seasons wherein the team failed to defend their premiership:
Geelong 3
Hawthorn 1

 

[ameen_ssnp]

Pretty sure Collingwood in the 1920s was a better team, Football has been declining ever since

 

[Hawkk]

The Cats are dwindling

As is my battery power

 

[Hawkk]

Absolutely not unless you're a supporter of rewarding mediocrity.

Medicorty is second nature to a Geelong fan. Who else would celebrate an era where they failed on three successive occasions to go b2b?

 

[Hawkk]

The Geelong Cats are the Detroit Pistans of the AFL

A little juncture wedged between the great Lakers of the 70s / 80s (5 titles in 9 years) and Bulls of the 90s (6 titles in 8 years)

Its a shame such a great run of home and away excellence has been wedged between the true AFL dynasties

 

[Hawkk]

When all else fails resort to personal attacks.

I take it you're one of those extra 40 odd thousand supporters who jumped on at/or after 08. More than doubled your supporter base in that time.

Hawthorn's bandwagon jump since 2008 (40k) is larger than the entire Geelong support base (if you are going soley by membership)

That is despite having a provincial town and region to themselves. The Cats are one of the great underachievers in Australian sport. The Cats squibbed it in 2008 and 2010, two years that have ultimately destroyed their legacy

 

[Pessimistic]

To put it into perspective. Our worst ever Premiership side in terms of list quality absolutely embarrassed the greatest Geelong side of all time on the biggest stage.

Surely that stings.

Stung them into beating us 11 times straight

 

[Pessimistic]

Did a little comparison of the teams in question over their decade of success including the 3 to 5 premierships won. Where a team misses finals, ladder position given and wins in brackets

It tells me that the hawks have a tendency to make the most of early success, where it might just be prelims for the other teams.

All the teams mentioned had a dip in the third year of success, which for the 84 hawks meant the shame of losing two grand finals in a row, while for brisbaen it meant a wooden spoon

Also suggests 16 might be the last successful year for the current hawks for a few years to come

 

[Pessimistic]

Whats common with these four teams, is they have been able to assemble a list which remains thereabouts for ten years, which no doubt has been more difficult for the three teams subject to the salary cap.

I think the 80s and 10s hawks have an extra flag or two (five and four) simply because they were able to snag one in the first couple of years in the era.

The peak power of the teams came in years 6-8, after each team had a 'hangover' around about the third year. Even with eighties hawthorn that came in the fourth year with one of the biggest thrashings in its finals history.

Hawthorn changed from Jeans to Joyce in year 7 (88) back to jeans in 89 then to Joyce for the 91 flag. Brisbane changed from Walls to northey in 97, then to Matthews in 99. Geelong switched from Thompson to Scott in 2011. hawthorn did not change coach in the 10 period, with '16 seeing Clarkson enter his 12th season as coach

 

[King Notorious]

If Four-thorn happens next year, pack this thread up. They will forever be the G.O.A.T

 

[daffo]

Cats - Did it in a tougher time with less help.

 

[dean31]

Cats - Did it in a tougher time with less help.

Yes Brisbane did get a lot of help I agree. Hawks on the other hand did it the hard way all on their own and got a 3 peat. No draft concessions, lost 5 players to free agency and only gained 1. Also didn't get the father son picks that were absolute superstar players like Geelong got cheaply. Hawks also beat Geelong at their absolute peak season in 2008.
Don't agree that it was tougher than either. Ross Lyon has been proven to have a game plan that doesn't hold up in the finals. Port Adelaide were the most ordinary grand finalist since Melbourne in 88. Collingwood have the worst losing record for Grandfinals in AFL/VFL history. Colliwobbles? Ring a bell.

 

[Pessimistic]

If Four-thorn happens next year, pack this thread up. They will forever be the G.O.A.T

One more flag puts them in debatable teritory with the 82-91 hawks certainly

 

[Obeanie1]

Free agent freebies?? Shows how little you understand. Hawks have lost out big time in free agency.
Hawks lost to free agency
Franklin
Suckling
Ellis
Young
Murphy

Hawks gained through free agency just 1
Frawley.

So yeah I can see how you losing players would have benefited Brisbane. Lose Jonathan Brown get pick 19? I see how that would have helped the Lions.

This is why I don't rate the Lions. You could have coached that team.

Here is just a few of the draft concessions (Gifts from the AFL) that Brisbane received while still the Bears. Michael Voss, Darryl White, Marcus Ashcroft, Jason Akermanis and Clark Keating. Just a couple Brownlow medalists, with 1 of them been perhaps the best player in Fitzroy/Brisbane history. Along with a heap of other key players. They had free unchallenged pick of the entire States of QLD, NT and numerous zones in Victoria and other places.
The Brisbane bears also benefited from a merger Chris Johnson (not the twins became a 2 time AA) and then trading of Fitzroy players that they gained for free netted them Mal Michael and Martin Pyke.
Despite already having ludicrous draft concessions to offset what I'm about to mention the merger allowed Brisbane to draft Jonathan Brown under father son, so with the players already listed and a father son pick lets now all except that the merger was extremely beneficial.

This merger also occurred directly after the Brisbane Bears team finished the 1996 season in 3rd. Imagine this for a scenario? GWS with all their stacked young talent you mentioned finished 3rd next year and then they merge with the bottom team on the ladder, pick over their bones to take who they want, have an extended playing roster to accommodate, trade players they don't want for others and gain father son selections. Throw on top of that a PHAT salary cap. Congratulations you've created an all conquering monster. Sorry to once and for all remove the Lions from this debate. Word has it the Lions have to share their premiership cups with AFL headquarters.

Hawks did it the hard and honest way. Success bought is not the same as success earnt.
Hawks hands down Greatest

Was Franklin or Roughead who was the AFL priority pick handed to the Hawks?

At the end of the day the Lions would beat the Hawks anyway.

Mal Michael v Roughead
Leppitch v Franklin
White v Gunston
Chris Johnson v Rioli
C Scott v Bruest
B Scott v Pupolo

Voss v Hodge
Lappin v Lewis
Black v Mitchell
Power v Bourgoyne

Keating v Hale
Charman v McEnvoy

Lynch v Lake
J Brown v Frawely
Ackermanis v Suckling
D Bradshaw v Giibson

I don't see too many Hawks winning those one on one contests especially in the middle / rucks.

It would be an amazing game.

 

[dean31]

Was Franklin or Roughead who was the AFL priority pick handed to the Hawks?

At the end of the day the Lions would beat the Hawks anyway.

Mal Michael v Roughead
Leppitch v Franklin
White v Gunston
Chris Johnson v Rioli
C Scott v Bruest
B Scott v Pupolo

Voss v Hodge
Lappin v Lewis
Black v Mitchell
Power v Bourgoyne

Keating v Hale
Charman v McEnvoy

Lynch v Lake
J Brown v Frawely
Ackermanis v Suckling
D Bradshaw v Giibson

I don't see too many Hawks winning those one on one contests especially in the middle / rucks.

It would be an amazing game.

Nice try but Hawks got just the 1 priority pick and that was Franklin. He has not been part of the team for the past 2 years. If that's the best you have your certainly fishing as that's minuscule in comparison to the Lions freebies. Also a lot less significant than Geelongs father son selections. Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins. I also don't discredit Geelong for that they are an excellent team with great culture and despite the strong club rivalry I actually like them as a team.
I don't have time to look into it but I'm sure plenty of other teams have had priority picks?
Hawks clearly the best and did on their own. Sorry that Hawks smoked west coast and caused tall poppy syndrome to set in. All these people desperately searching to discredit something that logically cannot be. It's simply a brilliant team that will go down in history as 1 of the greatest ever and should it be fourthorn then there cannot be any further debate from desperate supporters of other teams.

 

[Pessimistic]

Was Franklin or Roughead who was the AFL priority pick handed to the Hawks?

At the end of the day the Lions would beat the Hawks anyway.

Mal Michael v Roughead
Leppitch v Franklin
White v Gunston
Chris Johnson v Rioli
C Scott v Bruest
B Scott v Pupolo

Voss v Hodge
Lappin v Lewis
Black v Mitchell
Power v Bourgoyne

Keating v Hale
Charman v McEnvoy

Lynch v Lake
J Brown v Frawely
Ackermanis v Suckling
D Bradshaw v Giibson

I don't see too many Hawks winning those one on one contests especially in the middle / rucks.

It would be an amazing game.

It was. Clarksons first win in his fourth game

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2005/101920050416.html

Followed by his first premiership in his fourth season


Four must be clarkos lucky number

 

[Obeanie1]

Nice try but Hawks got just the 1 priority pick and that was Franklin. He has not been part of the team for the past 2 years. If that's the best you have your certainly fishing as that's minuscule in comparison to the Lions freebies. Also a lot less significant than Geelongs father son selections. Ablett, Scarlett and Hawkins. I also don't discredit Geelong for that they are an excellent team with great culture and despite the strong club rivalry I actually like them as a team.
I don't have time to look into it but I'm sure plenty of other teams have had priority picks?
Hawks clearly the best and did on their own. Sorry that Hawks smoked west coast and caused tall poppy syndrome to set in. All these people desperately searching to discredit something that logically cannot be. It's simply a brilliant team that will go down in history as 1 of the greatest ever and should it be fourthorn then there cannot be any further debate from desperate supporters of other teams.

Keep blowing your own trumpet all you like but any neutral looking at those match ups would award the points to the Lions.

Hawks back line simply isn't as good and Lynch, Brown, Bradshaw and Ackermanis would rip the Hawks a new one being fed by that midfield. Gibson wouldn't be allowed to zone off like he does against weaker forward lines.

Voss wins v Hodge.

The rucks isn't even a fair contest.

Go compare that Lions side against the teams the Hawks have beat in the GF. If you can't join the dots you don't know much about football. How does the Freo forward line compare to the Lions? What about the Eagles midfield v Lions? And that Lions team doesn't "not turn up" like the Swans did.

Hawks won three flags against opposition who were not even in the same league as that Lions side.

 

[beta_condition]

Keep blowing your own trumpet all you like but any neutral looking at those match ups would award the points to the Lions.

Hawks back line simply isn't as good and Lynch, Brown, Bradshaw and Ackermanis would rip the Hawks a new one being fed by that midfield. Gibson wouldn't be allowed to zone off like he does against weaker forward lines.

Voss wins v Hodge.

The rucks isn't even a fair contest.

Go compare that Lions side against the teams the Hawks have beat in the GF. If you can't join the dots you don't know much about football. How does the Freo forward line compare to the Lions? What about the Eagles midfield v Lions? And that Lions team doesn't "not turn up" like the Swans did.

Hawks won three flags against opposition who were not even in the same league as that Lions side.

Brown wasn't a great or even decent forward during the 2001-04 period, it's laughable you think gibson just zones off and does nothing else he can easily handle himself one on one against the best in the league and does regularly. That Hawthorn forward line would kick Brisbane arse, 5 of the 6 are AA standard 4 of which regularly kick 50 goals a season.

 

[Pessimistic]

Keep blowing your own trumpet all you like but any neutral looking at those match ups would award the points to the Lions.

Hawks back line simply isn't as good and Lynch, Brown, Bradshaw and Ackermanis would rip the Hawks a new one being fed by that midfield. Gibson wouldn't be allowed to zone off like he does against weaker forward lines.

Voss wins v Hodge.

The rucks isn't even a fair contest.

Go compare that Lions side against the teams the Hawks have beat in the GF. If you can't join the dots you don't know much about football. How does the Freo forward line compare to the Lions? What about the Eagles midfield v Lions? And that Lions team doesn't "not turn up" like the Swans did.

Hawks won three flags against opposition who were not even in the same league as that Lions side.

I tend to agree the lions had the best names but their gf opponents werent that flash either. And they also recorded a wooden spoon. I guess they didnt turn up that year

 

[Obeanie1]

Brown wasn't a great or even decent forward during the 2001-04 period, it's laughable you think gibson just zones off and does nothing else he can easily handle himself one on one against the best in the league and does regularly. That Hawthorn forward line would kick Brisbane arse, 5 of the 6 are AA standard 4 of which regularly kick 50 goals a season.

Which one is you?

So that Lions forward line wouldn't kick three more goals than Freo did?

 

[beta_condition]

Which one is you?


So that Lions forward line wouldn't kick three more goals than Freo did?

Considering Hawthorn score the exact same as that Brisbane team despite the league average being massively down, yes Hawthorn's forward is significantly better.

Over each teams 4 year period Brisbane scored 9,800 to Hawthorns 10,112

 

[Guardian Hawk]

Which one is you?

So that Lions forward line wouldn't kick three more goals than Freo did?

That logic makes absolutely no sense. So the Hawthorn forward line wouldn't be able to kick two more goals than a Collingwood side with Rupert Butheras, Glenn Freeborn, Carl Steinfort, Jarrod Molloy, Steven McKee, Ryan Lonie, etc ?? (i.e. 2002 GF) Same logic - just as stupid.

In fact look at the 2003 Collingwood GF side - arguable the worst GF side ever assembled- allowed Malthouse to coach a record number of games despite not winning a flag at Collingwood for so long - such was his genius for getting THAT side to consecutive Grand finals (In fact you were talking about forward lines - Tristen Walker was FF and Jason Cloke was CHF in that Collingwood side!).

 

[Goggin Our Best]

Hawthorn's bandwagon jump since 2008 (40k) is larger than the entire Geelong support base (if you are going soley by membership)

That is despite having a provincial town and region to themselves. The Cats are one of the great underachievers in Australian sport. The Cats squibbed it in 2008 and 2010, two years that have ultimately destroyed their legacy

Oh give it a spell mate - how many posts have you made on this thread topic - id say well over 100 - what did Keating say - " your like a dog to its vomit - you just keep coming back to it "

 

[dean31]

Keep blowing your own trumpet all you like but any neutral looking at those match ups would award the points to the Lions.

Hawks back line simply isn't as good and Lynch, Brown, Bradshaw and Ackermanis would rip the Hawks a new one being fed by that midfield. Gibson wouldn't be allowed to zone off like he does against weaker forward lines.

Voss wins v Hodge.

The rucks isn't even a fair contest.

Go compare that Lions side against the teams the Hawks have beat in the GF. If you can't join the dots you don't know much about football. How does the Freo forward line compare to the Lions? What about the Eagles midfield v Lions? And that Lions team doesn't "not turn up" like the Swans did.

Hawks won three flags against opposition who were not even in the same league as that Lions side.

Again your showing your lack of knowledge about the game
2001
1Essendon22175025481895


2001 Essendon 17 wins 5 losses 134%

2002 Collingwood 13 wins 9 losses 109%

2003 Collingwood 15 wins 7 losses 121%


Compared to Hawks opposition

Fremantle 2013
16 wins 1 draw 5 losses 134%

Sydney 2014
17 wins 5 losses 143%

West Coast 2015
16 wins 1 draw 5 losses 148%

So there we have it Hawks opposition clearly better in wins and losses comfortably and again another belting in average percentage. Only 1 of Brisbanes opposition compares with all 3 of the Hawks. Voss was a gift from the AFL to the lions success purchased by AFL headquarters for the Lions is not the same as the Hawks rags to riches story of domination in the AFL.
Hawks vs Eagles in AFL grandfinals
2 vs 0.

 

[Back One Out]

Can somebody tell me when the AFL changed the rules regarding their fixture and started to seed each team according to their ladder position?

I'm pretty sure this occurred after the 2012 season was completed. In time for 2013.

Geelong received much easier draws in their premiership years than Hawthorn have received from 2013 to 2015