Analysis Midfield, Ruck and On-ball - A bull and some class? Depth ruck?

[Lore]

eth-dog Yoda_ ant555 ^^

 

[Yoda_]

Can anyone provide a evaluation of Langfords year and if his role was similar to that blue collar mid in the vfl?

Are you reffering to Nick Hind?

 

[Bomberbuzz1]

Are you reffering to Nick Hind?

I meant is that what langfords year has been like? Has he been playing that role?

 

[Yoda_]

I meant is that what langfords year has been like? Has he been playing that role?

He was playing as an inside/outside midfield role, often roaming forward to kick goals throughout the year.

Was far too big, and as the year went on became increasingly powerful on the inside. Despite this, he never really tore games apart like I have seen Ben Howlett do (45 possessions in a wet game at Trevor Barker Oval) or even an Aaron Francis (in defence). Just kinda slides on by with his actual influence on games.

In saying that, he continually racks up large amounts of ball and is more a kicker than a handballer which is nice to see from an inside leaning midfielder. Would just like to see that self confidence and swagger about him at VFL level translated to AFL level because the kid can seriously play.

 

[BrunoV]

Langford's midfield game has been reminiscent of an old fashioned centreman.

His natural game is quite similar to Jobe's. He's not a hacker and while he can slide out of congestion he's generally better using the ball mainly handballing to free up team mates.

 

[ant555]

Ambrose to midfield. No. He is not good enough with ball in hand and his decision making is not good enough.

I know the club is pushing a few of the young blokes up for consideration which is fine, a couple may make it but the odds of that compared to drafting someone to play the inside midfielder are greater. All the young players mentioned have an "if" beside them.
If Laverde stays fit and finds form. If Begley gets his fitness levels up. If Langford can be more physical and stops doing U turns.If Much gets bigger.

Of them all Much is the one I think can possibly get there but he is still another season away from being a lock as your ball winner.

I see Langford more as a winger than an inside ball winner.

Begley did not even have a TAC pre season the year he was drafted so he will be 3rd or 4th year option if he gets there.

I have doubts on Laverde based on the injuries and the lack of development time. I am hoping he can just become a good hard at it forward for now and he can stop getting injured.

Francis will never get there other than being a burst player. Will never have the engine. Has to realize he can not operate at 90% and make it at AFL level.


I know some will blow up about parts of this article but the thing that caught my eye is the push for Matt Kennedy. Not the first time Callum has mentioned his name as a target for us and I have heard from another source he could be linked to us.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-09-14/time-for-bombers-to-hit-the-trade-table

If we could get Kennedy for pick 28 I think I would be all over it.
Stringer for 11 would be around the mark but there are serious question marks on attitude and head space.

 

[ant555]

Thoughts on the ability of Francis to one day play as a burst midfielder? Assume the fitness comes, does he have the skillset?

I never thought he did but have seen a few things that have made me reconsider.

From what i have seen of his midfield runs he was just a big body in there. He was pretty much clueless as far as winning clearances but was OK as a receiver. I am just hoping he starts putting 100% into his preparation week in and week out and he can be a good player for us as a back or forward. I think the midfield will be out of his reach.

 

[Mootsy]

what about bird I think you have to bring in bird now to help parish..

 

[ant555]

Agree with most of what you're saying here, but there's no way Parish classifies as a class outside player. He is far more of a contested, clearance winning inside mid.

Definitely agree we need more of that type of player though. Do you think that those quality inside leaning midfielders can be found pretty regularly later on in the draft? Feels like guys like Parker, Crouch, Sloane, Powell-Pepper tend to go later in the draft, which bodes well for us considering our likely draft position for the next couple of years.

Darcey plays his best footy when allowed to run through the middle. He wins contested footy but is not a clearance machine. His clearance work is good off the hands of the ruck but limited if he is not getting blocks and has to do the real grunt work. His best roll be be as a link player who finds space and provides run but can win enough around the ground contested ball when needed. He is not the guy you want to be sending into the middle first up.

You are right in saying most of the better inside ball winners tend to come outside the top fancies in the draft most years. Oddly enough or maybe not oddly at all a lot also have had some question on their disposal which I think stems from them being under constant pressure to win and dispose of the footy at under 18 level. It then seems to work itself out once they get into an AFL system. I know the knock on Sloan in his Ranges days was a bit on the small side and just an average kick rather than a great one.

 

[Knight Ryders]

Anthony Miles worth a shot?

 

[eth-dog]

Anthony Miles worth a shot?

Yes please

 

[Fridge16]

I have a theory that the season gone was our absolute low point for the midfield due to the age gap.

The guys that have been the bulk of our midfield for the past 3 to 5 years (Watson, Hocking, Stanton, Goddard) are all past their best and although Watson and Goddard were still O.K they were not great.

Then the next group (Zaharakis, Myers, Colyer) were average. Zaharakis was amazing towards the end of the season but this group isn't good enough to carry a midfield.

Then our younger brigade (Heppell, Merrett, Parish, Laverde, Langford) are still working towards their best. Merrett is clearly a star but he can't carry a midfield yet, he will soon be able to I believe. Heppell is similar in my opinion, he will be better for the run next year.

So moving into next year I see huge improvement with this group.

Zaharakis - Hold form, he's at a good age and should be a reliable performer next year.
Heppell - Improve - he's still young and will be better for the run after having 2016 off.
Merrett - Improve - Very young and is capable of being a star (probably is already)
Parish - Improve - Very young and will start to play a more serious role in the midfield
McGrath - Improve - Very young and will move towards some midfield time
Laverde - Improve - Won't be an A-Grader next year but will be handy in the rotation
Langford - Improve - See Laverde

Myers, Colyer, Bird are fringe.

We might get a surpise from one of Mutch or Clark

I think if we could add one or two of Rockliff, Kelly, Kennedy etc then we would have a much improved midfield if we get the natural growth from our core 7 mids listed above.

 

[calyam]

I have a theory that the season gone was our absolute low point for the midfield due to the age gap.

The guys that have been the bulk of our midfield for the past 3 to 5 years (Watson, Hocking, Stanton, Goddard) are all past their best and although Watson and Goddard were still O.K they were not great.

Then the next group (Zaharakis, Myers, Colyer) were average. Zaharakis was amazing towards the end of the season but this group isn't good enough to carry a midfield.

Then our younger brigade (Heppell, Merrett, Parish, Laverde, Langford) are still working towards their best. Merrett is clearly a star but he can't carry a midfield yet, he will soon be able to I believe. Heppell is similar in my opinion, he will be better for the run next year.

So moving into next year I see huge improvement with this group.

Zaharakis - Hold form, he's at a good age and should be a reliable performer next year.
Heppell - Improve - he's still young and will be better for the run after having 2016 off.
Merrett - Improve - Very young and is capable of being a star (probably is already)
Parish - Improve - Very young and will start to play a more serious role in the midfield
McGrath - Improve - Very young and will move towards some midfield time
Laverde - Improve - Won't be an A-Grader next year but will be handy in the rotation
Langford - Improve - See Laverde

Myers, Colyer, Bird are fringe.

We might get a surpise from one of Mutch or Clark

I think if we could add one or two of Rockliff, Kelly, Kennedy etc then we would have a much improved midfield if we get the natural growth from our core 7 mids listed above.

Our midfield over the age of 25 is dreadful. Goddard and Zaharakis were major contributors in 2017; Watson was slightly above average and Myers a bit below. The rest were non-factors.

The best teams typically have a range of quality midfielders in that 26 to 29 year old range. We don't. Our quality is all young - mostly undersized - and years away from their peak. There should be a lot of natural improvement but I do think we need to add some quality in that 26 to 29 year old bracket.

 

[Fridge16]

Our midfield over the age of 25 is dreadful. Goddard and Zaharakis were major contributors in 2017; Watson was slightly above average and Myers a bit below. The rest were non-factors.

The best teams typically have a range of quality midfielders in that 26 to 29 year old range. We don't. Our quality is all young - mostly undersized - and years away from their peak. There should be a lot of natural improvement but I do think we need to add some quality in that 26 to 29 year old bracket.

Yep I agree, Zaharakis, Goddard, Heppell will be a handy start but we do need at least one more (Rockliff) in that age bracket. The guys below them (Parish, Merrett, McGrath, Laverde, Langford) can have a huge impact on that midfield even if they are not at their peak.

I really believe Rockliff plus the natural improvement of our under 23's would make a massive difference to us next year. If we were also able to trade for a Kelly or Kennedy then that would just be amazing.

 

[Zach Package]

Our midfield over the age of 25 is dreadful. Goddard and Zaharakis were major contributors in 2017; Watson was slightly above average and Myers a bit below. The rest were non-factors.

The best teams typically have a range of quality midfielders in that 26 to 29 year old range. We don't. Our quality is all young - mostly undersized - and years away from their peak. There should be a lot of natural improvement but I do think we need to add some quality in that 26 to 29 year old bracket.

Completely ****ing the 2006 draft will do that to you. if we nail that we've potentially got 3 or 4 29 year olds that have played 200 games instead of nothing and Bachar Houli currently running around for Richmond.

 

[Arctic fox]

If we get Stringer and his head is fixed, I think he may go alright as a mid. He's got the in/under, bullocking, don't argue grunt and some good short speed.
Might fit in nicely. But as I said, head space fixing first.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Might want to clarify that you mean finals there, mate. They've won two of eleven finals at the MCG since 2005. They've won many more home and away games in that time.

I also don't think last night's game was conclusive proof we don't need more on the inside. While you can make your side too stacked with inside grunt at the expense of outside class, currently we are far too lacking in that area to be a consistent threat.

Yes, finals sorry.

The club stating that we need more outside talent might be a good indication we do?

 

[Doss]

Needing more outside talent does not mean we don't more on the inside as well.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Needing more outside talent does not mean we don't more on the inside as well.

I didn't say we didn't.

As I have maintained throughout the year you don't pay top dollar for those types unless they can do it on the outside.

 

[ant555]

Yes, finals sorry.

The club stating that we need more outside talent might be a good indication we do?

The club has indicated we need both inside and outside midfielders. But it is a discussion for our midfield thread.

 

[Killer_Mike]

The club has indicated we need both inside and outside midfielders. But it is a discussion for our midfield thread.

But the primary focus was outside class and speed.

But yes, wrong thread.

 

[ant555]

But the primary focus was outside class and speed.

But yes, wrong thread.

Leaving our list aside what is it that you do not like about inside midfielders ?
The Swans inside players may not be super quick but they are not just plodders either. It is their game style more than anything and not no the cattle on the park. Parker and Hanerbury are not slow. Kennedy would be the slowest but is just a star player who dare I say it IMO would look better in a side with a more balanced midfield.
Geelong have tried to get the balance of their midfield right with inside ball winners and some pace sprinkled in.

Inside ball winners do not have to be lumbering beasts.
Sloan, Wines, Parker, Pepper Powel , Dangerfield etc all inside midfielders.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Leaving our list aside what is it that you do not like about inside midfielders ?
The Swans inside players may not be super quick but they are not just plodders either. It is their game style more than anything and not no the cattle on the park. Parker and Hanerbury are not slow. Kennedy would be the slowest but is just a star player who dare I say it IMO would look better in a side with a more balanced midfield.
Geelong have tried to get the balance of their midfield right with inside ball winners and some pace sprinkled in.

Inside ball winners do not have to be lumbering beasts.
Sloan, Wines, Parker, Pepper Powel , Dangerfield etc all inside midfielders.

I have never said I dont like inside midfielders. I just think you can have too many of them.

The players you have named all can do it on the outside and are far more suited on the bigger grounds.

I acknowledge we need to win more of the ball on the inside but I can also see that we just chop the ball up all the time.

Our midfield is extremely young but talented and I think through more maturity and experience they will get better on the inside but they will only marginally imrove on the outside. If people read my posts I have never been against getting the Balic types because they come cheap but I would never go for a Hopper over an outside player with class because we would have to give up to much for somebody that would only marginally improve us.

People don't want to factor in the age of our midfield or the fact that we are only just at the start of our journey with Woosha as coach. I would be shocked if next year we cant improve on our midfield game with the omission of Jobe and hopefully a couple of other trucks we have in there.

Next year we will have a whole new setup and I think by the second half of the year we will start to see what we really look like going forward.

 

[ant555]

I have never said I dont like inside midfielders. I just think you can have too many of them.

The players you have named all can do it on the outside and are far more suited on the bigger grounds.

I acknowledge we need to win more of the ball on the inside but I can also see that we just chop the ball up all the time.

Our midfield is extremely young but talented and I think through more maturity and experience they will get better on the inside but they will only marginally imrove on the outside. If people read my posts I have never been against getting the Balic types because they come cheap but I would never go for a Hopper over an outside player with class because we would have to give up to much for somebody that would only marginally improve us.

People don't want to factor in the age of our midfield or the fact that we are only just at the start of our journey with Woosha as coach. I would be shocked if next year we cant improve on our midfield game with the omission of Jobe and hopefully a couple of other trucks we have in there.

Next year we will have a whole new setup and I think by the second half of the year we will start to see what we really look like going forward.

Then I think in our recent discussion we have had our wires crossed a bit. I have been saying for 8 years we have been too slow in the middle and have had no change up. I want inside ball winners ball winners but not at the expense of variety. In fact most players I have thrown up during draft comment in recent times are player who can win contested footy but also have some run and spread.

 

[Killer_Mike]

Then I think in our recent discussion we have had our wires crossed a bit. I have been saying for 8 years we have been too slow in the middle and have had no change up. I want inside ball winners ball winners but not at the expense of variety. In fact most players I have thrown up during draft comment in recent times are player who can win contested footy but also have some run and spread.

I think we have been also.

I have actually been asking for Heppell to go back to HB because we cant carry Jobe, Myers and Heppell in the same midfield. We have too many of the one type.