Next flag - Carlton, Essendon or Richmond?

[pinot]

we have not completed our three year rebuild yet we have one more intake to go

 

[Jobe Watson]

What an idiotic measuring stick to use, aside from the obvious that those All australians don't really count because well yourplayers were on drugs when they won them...

No they weren't you dingus.

everyone knows the all australian team is essentially a popularity contest and not a good reflection. Certainly doesn't account for coaching, injuries and the quality of the rest of the team.

If All-Australians mean nothing then why did Carlton supporters spend a month sooking when Cripps didn't make the squad and Docherty didn't make the team?

Unbiased sources, as I presented, have the Essendon midfield ahead of Carlton's midfield, and rate our top-tier midfielders higher than Carlton's. You can come up with all the excuses you want, but it really adds nothing to the discussion. If you think the Carlton midfield is better than Essendon's please tell us why, preferably with some independent data/sources that agree with you.

 

[Ozil]

Don't think Essendon or Richmond have the upshot with relatively mature lists and I don't rate Worsfold or Hardwick, but anything could happen in this crazy league.

Carlton for me. I'm super impressed with Bolton as a communicator and tactician, and there are plenty of kids with bright futures. They're still miles off, but they're on track.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Don't think Essendon or Richmond have the upshot with relatively mature lists...

There's an optical illusion at work.

Average age in 2017:

Essendon 25.80 (5th oldest)
Carlton 24.89 (13th)
Richmond 24.78 (15th)

Hopefully Morris, Hunt and Batchelor have been relegated to 'break glass in case of emergency'. Markov, Menadue and C. Ellis (all 20yo) played 30+ games between them last year and are the future.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

No they weren't you dingus.


If All-Australians mean nothing then why did Carlton supporters spend a month sooking when Cripps didn't make the squad and Docherty didn't make the team?

Unbiased sources, as I presented, have the Essendon midfield ahead of Carlton's midfield, and rate our top-tier midfielders higher than Carlton's. You can come up with all the excuses you want, but it really adds nothing to the discussion. If you think the Carlton midfield is better than Essendon's please tell us why, and provide some independent sources/experts that agree with you.

Thinking of which midfield is better, wouldn't need for one to acquire any factual source or opinion from an attention seeking journalist. What one thinks would come from how they perceive information personally. You are practically implying that anyone with the view of Carlton midfield being 'better' (which I see as being vastly vague), is wrong which would further imply how easily offended you are by such an idea.

Whether or not Carlton's midfield is better, I am personally happy with it and wouldn't trade it for Essendon's, and vice versa if I were a bombers fan. What matters is which performed better on a given day. In this case with the most recent match, Carlton's played better, applied more pressure and had a much bigger impact to their team's result.

You also can't go about generalising Carlton fans for being disappointed with Cripps, Docherty and Simpson missing out on AA last year. If that was the case, I could make the same argument when it came to the bombers fans and Merrett. Many of us take things differently. I personally would have liked to see one of them getting in but in the end, I did not give a crap. A school blazer handed by a group of desperate so-called 'media experts', does not see a player coming out with any significant advantage over other players. Most only become an excessive promotional tool for the entire sport and their own clubs. The only good thing that can be taken out of a player becoming an AA is the reward for the effort they put in that year and the standards they set. That's about it.

I suppose you think when comparing careers. Heppell has immediately become better than Kade Simpson because he is an AA. That is not saying he won't achieve more but there are other ways to prove success than being nominated by a bunch of attention seeking media clowns (potentially influenced by their own views, which end up mattering more than others').

 

[Jobe Watson]

Thinking of which midfield is better, wouldn't need for one to acquire any factual source or opinion from an attention seeking journalist. What one thinks would come from how they perceive information personally. You are practically implying that anyone with the view of Carlton midfield being 'better' (which I see as being vastly vague), is wrong which would further imply how easily offended you are by such an idea.

Backing up your opinion with external, unbiased material would help lend some validity to your view, as opposed to "Carlton's midfield is better because I say so".

Not offended what so ever. You can have the view that Carlton's midfield is better. I don't agree, and neither do quite a few unbiased analysts.

What matters is which performed better on a given day. In this case with the most recent match, Carlton's played better, applied more pressure and had a much bigger impact to their team's result.

Actually, that doesn't really matter at all. The season is played over 22 games + finals and this thread is asking specifically about these three teams' prospects in both the short and long term. Carlton's midfield beating Essendon's midfield in 1 game doesn't prove much. Is Essendon's forward line now better than Hawthorn's because it kicked more goals than theirs in Round 1?

I personally would have liked to see one of them getting in but in the end, I did not give a crap. A school blazer handed by a group of desperate so-called 'media experts', does not see a player coming out with any significant advantage over other players. Most only become an excessive promotional tool for the entire sport and their own clubs. The only good thing that can be taken out of a player becoming an AA is the reward for the effort they put in that year and the standards they set. That's about it.

I suppose you think when comparing careers. Heppell has immediately become better than Kade Simpson because he is an AA. That is not saying he won't achieve more but there are other ways to prove success than being nominated by a bunch of attention seeking media clowns (potentially influenced by their own views, which end up mattering more than others').

In that case, are there any AFL awards that mean anything? The Brownlow Medal is just a popularity contest decided on by the often-derided umpires. The Coaches' Award is based on votes by 2 blokes who have other things on their mind than keeping track of who the 5 best players each game are. We need some objective way to separate the Nick Dal Santo's from the Chris Judd's and I don't see why All-Australian nominations aren't a credible, useful measuring stick in your eyes.

And no, Heppell hasn't yet had a better career than Simpson. If you compare Hep and Simmo at the same age then yeah, Heppell is way ahead as a player - and his AA nod is a testament to that.

 

[Thrawn]

You really are such a condescending, smug campaigner Jade, and are quickly becoming one of the shittest posters on this site.

Hit the showers for a few weeks champ.

Quickly becoming?

 

[The Dice Man]

Don't think Essendon or Richmond have the upshot with relatively mature lists

What? We have a super young list thats 3-0.

The hilarity of this thread is Essendon and Carlton campaigners fighting over who comes 2nd.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

A side of VFL top-ups, retirees and young guys completely dismantled Carlton 4 games ago. Yes, the Blues are the inferior side without doubt when you consider the state of each list and the quality contained within.

That doesn't mean upsets won't happen. Especially in an incredibly even year.

The bloody dictionary is going to become a picture book. Add another photo......

You contradict yourself in your own post. You cannot call another side inferior, then lose to it in the most recent contest, then state as an aside "especially in an incredibly even year".....

But way to miss the point. Doesn't matter what happened four games ago, Essendon lost its most recent encounter with an "inferior" side.

So the statement's made by people like yourself and Jade are delusional.

I.E; Not supported by fact.

They are opinions, and as Jade rightly points out in previous posts, they are opinions proven wrong.

 

[Red Bull]

Why are so many Essendon fans seemingly unperturbed about losing to Carlton simply because it rained? Seems strange to dismiss a performance just because it rained. What if it rained in a final?

Because it didn't happen
You know ... nothing to see here and all that .
Where's the pic of that military guy holding his hands up in denial ? Lol

 

[Grrr]

- All-Australians in the previous 5 years: Essendon 3 (Watson x2, Heppell), Carlton 0.
- AFL Player's Top 50: Heppell (26), Merrett (28), Cripps (32), Watson (41). Murphy & Gibbs (N/A).
- ChampionData Midfield Rankings: Essendon 13th, Carlton 16th.

We also have the better young midfielders in my opinion: Parish was 4th in the Rising Star last year, McGrath was the #1 pick and hasn't put a foot wrong so far in his AFL career, Merrett and Heppell are both A-graders who are under 25.

Yes Carlton's mids have been down of recent years whilst languishing down the bottom of the ladder. Watson is interesting, his best is as good as anyone's, but his best did come during the drugs saga, so there has to be a question mark. But a champion no doubt. After that I would have Murphy, who although he hasn't been all Australianed recently was voted by the players as the best player in the comp at some stage. That outweighs Brownlows and All Australians in my book. Still a gun as this year is showing. Next perhaps is Merritt, who this year and last seems like a great career to come. Gibbs has been better than Heppell. His ball use by foot is the best in the business. Hate it when Gibbs plays well against us because he really hurts you. Heppell whilst a good solid player, does not do that. Cripps is one the leading young player in the league for clearances and at 193cm will only get better. Parish looks good but is only 19, and unlikely to dominate games like Crisp, good future no doubt. The difference is that Carlton have little backup in relation to midfielders, whereas Essendon have quite a few. Kreuser is leagues above Leuenburger.
Starting 4 for Carlton over starting 4 for Essendon right now.

 

[SherbertLemon]

What? We have a super young list thats 3-0.

The hilarity of this thread is Essendon and Carlton campaigners fighting over who comes 2nd.

The true hilarity is yet to come. But it always comes

 

[Red Bull]

The true hilarity is yet to come. But it always comes

Got 9th written all over it hasn't it ...

 

[Reptilia]

Not sure why you are all arguing, neither team will be next to win a premiership because the end of the world will come before they get their chance. Soz but true #truthhurts

 

[blitzer]

There's an optical illusion at work.

Average age in 2017:

Essendon 25.80 (5th oldest)
Carlton 24.89 (13th)
Richmond 24.78 (15th)

Hopefully Morris, Hunt and Batchelor have been relegated to 'break glass in case of emergency'. Markov, Menadue and C. Ellis (all 20yo) played 30+ games between them last year and are the future.

Average age for us is a bit misleading - only in terms of the fact that most of our best players/most talented players are actually yet to even enter their primes. Most of our older players are more good average players at this stage of their career. Its obviously miles easier to replace good players than it is to replace stars.
Our best and most talented players are:
Old: Watson
In their prime: Hurley, Hooker, Heppell
Nearing their prime: Daniher, Zac Merrett, Fantasia
Only beginning their careers: Parish, McGrath, Francis

Edit: Forgot Fantasia - simply criminal.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Average age for us is a bit misleading - only in terms of the fact that most of our best players/most talented players are actually yet to even enter their primes. Most of our older players are more good average players at this stage of their career. Its obviously miles easier to replace good players than it is to replace stars.
Our best and most talented players are:
Old: Watson
In their prime: Hurley, Hooker, Heppell
Nearing their prime: Daniher, Zac Merrett
Only beginning their careers: Parish, McGrath, Francis

Think Goddard still plays a valuable role, and the importance of blokes like Stanton (= Grigg for Richmond) tends to be underrated. Obviously Kelly is near the end, but he's another running defender who knows what to do that must be replaced. Even Baguley with his 80-odd games is sneaking up there. And there are question marks over Leuenberger's durability and quality of the ruck backup.

It's not a bad list balance by any means - pretty normal actually - but future gains will be offset by some losses. I think Essendon will need another Goddard-type acquisition or two to contend in the shorter term.

 

[gavaniacono]

If it keeps raining in torrents for the rest of the year, blues tiges GF.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Average age for us is a bit misleading - only in terms of the fact that most of our best players/most talented players are actually yet to even enter their primes. Most of our older players are more good average players at this stage of their career. Its obviously miles easier to replace good players than it is to replace stars.
Our best and most talented players are:
Old: Watson
In their prime: Hurley, Hooker, Heppell
Nearing their prime: Daniher, Zac Merrett
Only beginning their careers: Parish, McGrath, Francis

Suspect that the Carlton v Essendon thing is coming as a result pf perceptions. Carlton fans coming from a fair way back and comfortable that they can see things turning for the better. Remains to be seen how much better and how quickly but it is fair to say that their is already a basis of a great young defence. Essendon on the other hand have been through a lot of (self inflicted) pain and have come out the other side with their list mainly intact and as a result some believe that they now have a ferrari and that Orazio is the best driver in F1.

In actuality they have beaten the Hawks (which now looks like winning a weak maiden at Warracknabeal rather than a group 1 at Flemington, been pushed by the Lions (who aren't as bad as everyone thinks) and been beaten by the Blues (which they rather pathetically just put down to the wet). Next few weeks will tell us where they belong. I suspect that the whole mindset of your bomber supporter may have to be re-set as to just how good they are. Then we might get some more perspective as to how good their younger players are.

 

[Bomberblitzer]

The bloody dictionary is going to become a picture book. Add another photo......

You contradict yourself in your own post. You cannot call another side inferior, then lose to it in the most recent contest, then state as an aside "especially in an incredibly even year".....

But way to miss the point. Doesn't matter what happened four games ago, Essendon lost its most recent encounter with an "inferior" side.

So the statement's made by people like yourself and Jade are delusional.

I.E; Not supported by fact.

They are opinions, and as Jade rightly points out in previous posts, they are opinions proven wrong.

It's not a contradiction at all. Carlton are in fact a worse side than Essendon, which will be evident by each sides respective ladder positions at the end of the season. Again, that doesn't mean Carlton beating Essendon is an impossible feat. These teams quite often provide interesting and unexpected results - you need only look at the last round of 2016 to see that. Given the conditions on Sunday, the evenness of the competition (Carlton aren't that bad at the end of the day) and the history between these sides, I'm not at all surprised at what happened. Even watching the game I turned to my Carlton supporting mate and said that the Bombers will probably lose.

Like I said though, it isn't a good indication as to where each side is at. Essendon should be much better against the Crows this week.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

A side of VFL top-ups, retirees and young guys completely dismantled Carlton 4 games ago. Yes, the Blues are the inferior side without doubt when you consider the state of each list and the quality contained within.

That doesn't mean upsets won't happen. Especially in an incredibly even year.

don't think there's much relevance to anything that happens in round 23 with sides that have nothing to play for.

geelong and sydney both won games by 100 against sides they are now (4 games later) probably inferior to

 

[Bomberblitzer]

don't think there's much relevance to anything that happens in round 23 with sides that have nothing to play for.

geelong and sydney both won games by 100 against sides they are now (4 games later) probably inferior to

If you can discredit Essendons win then I can discredit Carltons win on Sunday just as easily. In reality both games were upsets. Each side will have growing pains this season and will put up less than ideal performances.

Worsfold probably doesn't even know for sure what the best 22 looks like yet, but that understanding between coach and players as well as team chemistry will be established by the end of the year. Same goes for Bolton and the Blues.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

If you can discredit Essendons win then I can discredit Carltons win on Sunday just as easily. In reality both games were upsets. Each side will have growing pains this season and will put up less than ideal performances.

Worsfold probably doesn't even know for sure what the best 22 looks like yet, but that understanding between coach and players as well as team chemistry will be established by the end of the year. Same goes for Bolton and the Blues.

i would agree that essendon appear to be the stronger side right now and sunday was an upset.

the rain certainly helped us because we simply don't have the firepower to be getting into shootouts with sides so anything that restricts scoring helps us. but we did a great job of stopping Melbourne's ball movement in round 2 as well. we probably could have won that game on another day but for a few mistakes on our part and a bit of class on theirs. could we have stopped essendon on a dry day? who knows, but i think the sample size this season is still too small to be making any serious judgments on where these sides are at. i mean, we're no world beaters that's for sure but there's a real discipline and structure about this carlton team (particularly behind the ball) which is getting a bit disregarded because of the conditions on sunday.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

It's not a contradiction at all. Carlton are in fact a worse side than Essendon, which will be evident by each sides respective ladder positions at the end of the season. Again, that doesn't mean Carlton beating Essendon is an impossible feat. These teams quite often provide interesting and unexpected results - you need only look at the last round of 2016 to see that. Given the conditions on Sunday, the evenness of the competition (Carlton aren't that bad at the end of the day) and the history between these sides, I'm not at all surprised at what happened. Even watching the game I turned to my Carlton supporting mate and said that the Bombers will probably lose.

Like I said though, it isn't a good indication as to where each side is at. Essendon should be much better against the Crows this week.

This is the last time I will explain it to you.
You are now trying to predict into the future, I will use the history of mankind now as a factual base to underline that we as a species do not have this ability.
Therefore your comments are opinion. And your opinions aren't supported by the facts.
Essendon may very well end the year above Carlton, and I haven't argued otherwise. However, the claims made by yourself and Jade are at this point pure rhetoric and this is what I have called you on.

 

[gaelictiogar]

Got 9th written all over it hasn't it ...

No mate I reckon you are more likely to be about 16th.

 

[Rack Watts]

Richmond can win the premiership this year. People rate Geelong as a reasonable shot to win it, but Richmond's list is in a similar position.

- Cotchin is back in his 2012 form and looks every bit as good as Selwood. The Brownlow thing has put a chip on his shoulder, he's out to prove that he's worthy of it.
- Dustin Martin is just as good as Dangerfield.
- If they played Reiwoldt as deep as Geelong, he'd be as good as Tomahawk.
- Rance is the best defender in the comp, only Hurley and May are close.
-They have a similar problem to Geelong, which is depth.

I see strong similarities in list position, Richmond are a legit chance at the flag this year.