Next flag - Carlton, Essendon or Richmond?

[OnceWeWereKings]

Actually what's laughable is people continuing to equate winter with rain.

Come to think of it, it is the very BigFooty thing to do - say something as fact because others have said it.

The wettest months of the year in Melbourne fall outside of the footy season.

Yet nearly 54% of Melbourne's average rainfall falls throughout the footy season....

But thanks for input into Melbourne's weather, it helps you to create a strong argument to support your claims of Essendon's superiority.......

Good job.

 

[jezzajay]

They did. Here is my post game analysis if you are interested.

Doesn't for one second change the relative strengths of the two lists.

At what stage has Carlton been considered wet weather geniuses....never, much like Essendon.
So it could be said that we should have lost due to the weather too.
No...our boys just stood up on the day, used their brains and had a crack!

Your mob flopped... suck it up homeboy!

 

[Jade]

Yet nearly 54% of Melbourne's average rainfall falls throughout the footy season....

But thanks for input into Melbourne's weather, it helps you to create a strong argument to support your claims of Essendon's superiority.......

Good job.

No it doesn't, check your figures.

Mean Rainfall April-September: 318mm
Mean Rainfall October-March: 330mm

The three highest months fall outside of the season

Source, Bureau of Meteorology.

 

[Jade]

At what stage has Carlton been considered wet weather geniuses....never, much like Essendon.

Never. Which is why your winning score was 57 points - you're a pretty shit team.

Essendon however, were horrific in the wet.

 

[jezzajay]

Never. Which is why your winning score was 57 points - you're a pretty shit team.

Essendon however, were horrific in the wet.

Maybe it just means your team shit...ever considered that?
Something tells me no.

 

[jezzajay]

No it doesn't, check your figures.

Mean Rainfall April-September: 318mm
Mean Rainfall October-March: 330mm

The three highest months fall outside of the season

Source, Bureau of Meteorology.

haha.... 12mms is nothing were i live.
Can get that within minutes on an average rainfall day.

Semantics...

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

No it doesn't, check your figures.

Mean Rainfall April-September: 318mm
Mean Rainfall October-March: 330mm

The three highest months fall outside of the season

Source, Bureau of Meteorology.

no wonder we suck. we're wet weather specialists playing in the dry season!

 

[Jade]

Maybe it just means your team shit...ever considered that?
Something tells me no.

In the wet? Sure.

I can tell you why this is bothering Carlton fans so much though, it's one of two things:

1) They want Essendon to be poor. Being told over and over again they we are consistently shit in the wet and it is not representative of our side bothers some.
2) They want Carlton to be good. Having it pointed out that your performance was the same level of sub-standard, despite the win, bothers some.

 

[Jade]

haha.... 12mms is nothing were i live.
Can get that within minutes on an average rainfall day.

Semantics...

It's not semantics.

The claim was made that Essendon should know how to play in the wet because it's winter. The inference of course being that it rains more in winter

So I pointed out the verifiable fact that it is in fact drier during the footy season than the remainder of the year, thus proving that said poster/s made an assumption that was actually false.

No semantics, just facts.

 

[Jade]

no wonder we suck. we're wet weather specialists playing in the dry season!

We're through the looking glass here...

 

[jezzajay]

In the wet? Sure.

I can tell you why this is bothering Carlton fans so much though, it's one of two things:

1) They want Essendon to be poor. Being told over and over again they we are consistently shit in the wet and it is not representative of our side bothers some.
2) They want Carlton to be good. Having it pointed out that your performance was the same level of sub-standard, despite the win, bothers some.

Disagree.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Of course your midfield won. Ours doesn't perform in the wet. Hasn't for some years.

Doesn't for a second make them better; no one with any sense at all would place Carlton's midfield above Essendon - it's quite simply outmatched.

Suspect that Essendon fans are trying to make it a Ess v Carlton midfield discussion as they think they can win that argument. Overall when Docherty Marchbank, Byrne, Macreadie, Weitering, Silvagni, Pickett, Williamson, C.Curnow are added to the equation the discussion becomes heavily skewed in the other direction I believe.

 

[Jade]

Suspect that Essendon fans are trying to make it a Ess v Carlton midfield discussion as they think they can win that argument. Overall when Docherty Marchbank, Byrne, Macreadie, Weitering, Silvagni, Pickett, Williamson, C.Curnow are added to the equation the discussion becomes heavily skewed in the other direction I believe.

Nah.

We go elsewhere on the ground and we can start talking Daniher, Hooker, Hurley, Fantasia, Francis, Laverde, Langford, McGrath, Hartley...

I think your midfield is probably the closest comparison Carlton can make - our tall forwards are significantly better, our small forwards are way, waaaaaaayyy better, our tall defenders, better.

 

[Donakebab]

Suspect that Essendon fans are trying to make it a Ess v Carlton midfield discussion as they think they can win that argument. Overall when Docherty Marchbank, Byrne, Macreadie, Weitering, Silvagni, Pickett, Williamson, C.Curnow are added to the equation the discussion becomes heavily skewed in the other direction I believe.

You do realise Essendon and Richmond can just name a handful of unproven talent players and claim the exact same thing.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

No it doesn't, check your figures.

Mean Rainfall April-September: 318mm
Mean Rainfall October-March: 330mm

The three highest months fall outside of the season

Source, Bureau of Meteorology.

Pretty sure its the 13th of April?
Pretty sure round 4 starts tonight?
Pretty sure each round of footy is held on consecutive weeks, except for when a bye is played?
Pretty sure each week contains 7 days?
Pretty sure we have played three rounds up until today?
Pretty sure the first round of the season was held in March?
Pretty sure that would indicate the season then runs March through to September?
Pretty sure that indicates your figures are skewered?
Pretty sure we are bogged down in the semantics of the weather as you are struggling badly to supply anything other than bullshit to support your rhetoric.

So figures checked.

Source, Common Sense.....

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Backing up your opinion with external, unbiased material would help lend some validity to your view, as opposed to "Carlton's midfield is better because I say so".
Not offended what so ever. You can have the view that Carlton's midfield is better. I don't agree, and neither do quite a few unbiased analysts.

So long as a person is only stating their opinion and has no intention of arguing it to others, then they don't need to provide any factual source. How one takes in the information is on them. I could say something like 'I prefer Carlton's midfield because the starting field of players looks threatening on paper and they look to be well-balanced. Cripps provides the contested work while Murphy wins the clearances...'. While many think differently, those that think this way still wouldn't be wrong if they don't intend to persuade others to think the same way.

Besides, most Carlton supporters already know where the currently sit and are aware of how their team is rated by media journalists, so not many would bother trying to argue otherwise. But that wouldn't stop them from thinking differently. I have seen unbiased opinions from non-Carlton supporters saying our midfield is better and they have provided their reasons. Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying you have to agree with what they think. But then again, there is no getting away from the occasional moron who does intend on arguing. Even I would probably not agree with them.

You also got to remember that with rankings from champion data and other sources, Carlton's midfield is rated lower due to the fact that it lacks depth, so it does not take anything away from Murphy, Gibbs or Cripps. Every other team including yours, holds the advantage of having a supporting group of players.

Actually, that doesn't really matter at all. The season is played over 22 games + finals and this thread is asking specifically about these three teams' prospects in both the short and long term. Carlton's midfield beating Essendon's midfield in 1 game doesn't prove much. Is Essendon's forward line now better than Hawthorn's because it kicked more goals than theirs in Round 1?

Nope it pretty much does, but you're misunderstanding what I am saying. At no point did I say that one game would determine which team is more superior. What is evident is the final ladder after the 23 rounds. I personally think there is no point making a general comparison of lists when it goes towards nothing. It matters how the lists perform during the year and how well they tackle the coniditions they may experience.

Carlton finished above four teams last year, including yours. Therefore they were overall better team than those that finished below them, midfield and all (as it is a collective performance).
You could come up with excuses such as loses your experienced players (and that can be a valid point), but in the end your depth was tested and they failed to do any more damage than they had, which resulted in them finishing last. People who say Brisbane, Fremantle or Gold Coast were overall better than Carlton (or that Carlton overachieved) would only make themselves look foolish. If that were the case, those teams would face any predicament they were in with more success and finish on top of the blues as a result. The fact was we were a better team and that remains the case.
It would be the same if Essendon finish above us this year (which most likely will be the case). Therefore, they would be the better team because they handled their season better.

This thread is asking which is closer to a flag. I have already stated that while Essendon are ahead of Carlton in the short-term aspects, Carlton are ahead of them in the long-term aspects (as they are applying more focus on their future than most clubs). There is just no point worrying about which team is better when both are proving very little right now.

In that case, are there any AFL awards that mean anything? The Brownlow Medal is just a popularity contest decided on by the often-derided umpires. The Coaches' Award is based on votes by 2 blokes who have other things on their mind than keeping track of who the 5 best players each game are. We need some objective way to separate the Nick Dal Santo's from the Chris Judd's and I don't see why All-Australian nominations aren't a credible, useful measuring stick in your eyes.

And no, Heppell hasn't yet had a better career than Simpson. If you compare Hep and Simmo at the same age then yeah, Heppell is way ahead as a player - and his AA nod is a testament to that.

That is when opinions come into play. I will remember Chris Judd for what he brought on the field for both West Coast and Carlton, not the awards he got from it. Yes, he has achieved more than Dal Santo (and rightly so), but does that take anything away from Dal Santo. Physical awards while appreciated, mean very little to the players compared to the game and the rest of the competition.

Some players have reshaped their club (eg. Robert Murphy), others have inspired teammates (eg. Kade Simpson). Work from some goes unnoticed because of how they are generally rated. There are small club awards that can mean just as much as winning a Brownlow medal to any player.
No, I don't see AA's as being a measuring stick and they don't need to be. They are only an award for a brilliant season. The media just look for something to hang their hat on.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

haha.... 12mms is nothing were i live.
Can get that within minutes on an average rainfall day.

Semantics...

Would also help if Jade knew when the actual season occurs

 

[Jade]

Pretty sure its the 13th of April?
Pretty sure round 4 starts tonight?
Pretty sure each round of footy is held on consecutive weeks, except for when a bye is played?
Pretty sure each week contains 7 days?
Pretty sure we have played three rounds up until today?
Pretty sure the first round of the season was held in March?
Pretty sure that would indicate the season then runs March through to September?
Pretty sure that indicates your figures are skewered?
Pretty sure we are bogged down in the semantics of the weather as you are struggling badly to supply anything other than bullshit to support your rhetoric.

So figures checked.

Source, Common Sense.....

LOOOOOOL....

Here's your comment.

Yet nearly 54% of Melbourne's average rainfall falls throughout the footy season....

But thanks for input into Melbourne's weather, it helps you to create a strong argument to support your claims of Essendon's superiority.......

Good job.

So you want to 'prove' that rain is more likely when footy is played, but want that 54% to cover SEVEN months of the year! And it's 'skewed', not 'skewered'...

HAHAHAHAHAHAdsvowsldcnwdpocjnbljnasflkndfvfjndfvbdd.....

"So I'm going to offer a percentage of ANNUAL rainfall to prove my point, but then have that 54% of yearly rainfall fall over 58% of the year thus categorically proving it is LESS likely to rain during footy season"

 

[lionshine]

I think the Bombers are building towards something special. They have a talented young core of Heppell, Daniher, Merrett, Parish, Fantasia, Francis and McGrath. I think all 7 of those guys are/will be high calibre players. They can build around those guys and already have the likes of Hooker, Hurley, McDonald-Tipungwuti and Colyer accompanying that young core.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Nah.

We go elsewhere on the ground and we can start talking Daniher, Hooker, Hurley, Fantasia, Francis, Laverde, Langford, McGrath, Hartley...

I think your midfield is probably the closest comparison Carlton can make - our tall forwards are significantly better, our small forwards are way, waaaaaaayyy better, our tall defenders, better.

The concept of a team building towards a flag further down the line (say five years away) appears to have escaped you. Our back six in 7 years time (barring accidents) should include Marchbank, Docherty, Macreadie, Byrne and possibly Weitering if required back there. That is not to mention Williamson who looked good on debut last week. However I dare say that the magnificent Bombers who are the greatest team of all time unless it rains would have that covered.

 

[Jade]

The concept of a team building towards a flag further down the line (say five years away) appears to have escaped you. Our back six in 7 years time (barring accidents) should include Marchbank, Docherty, Macreadie, Byrne and possibly Weitering if required back there. That is not to mention Williamson who looked good on debut last week. However I dare say that the magnificent Bombers who are the greatest team of all time unless it rains would have that covered.

Oh I understand the concept just fine.

Daniher is 23 years old and has a 40 goal season under his belt. Is well on track to exceed that.

Fantasia is 21 years old and with the obvious exception of Eddie Betts, might actually be the best small forward in the league.

Hurley is 26, contracted for five years and an All-Australian defender.

In what deluded world are these and other players not within an appropriate age bracket to challenge for a flag?

Christ some of you are legit off the reservation...

 

[BigFrizz36]

The concept of a team building towards a flag further down the line (say five years away) appears to have escaped you. Our back six in 7 years time (barring accidents) should include Marchbank, Docherty, Macreadie, Byrne and possibly Weitering if required back there. That is not to mention Williamson who looked good on debut last week. However I dare say that the magnificent Bombers who are the greatest team of all time unless it rains would have that covered.

Also it needs to be said that generally speaking if you have really good under 23 players on your list it means that you have been a poor team for a long period of time. Its hardly a badge of honor. We are happy to acknowledge that our list was run down by various individuals which is why we are at the starting point of replenishing same list.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

LOOOOOOL....

Here's your comment.



So you want to 'prove' that rain is more likely when footy is played, but want that 54% to cover SEVEN months of the year! And it's 'skewed', not 'skewered'...

HAHAHAHAHAHAdsvowsldcnwdpocjnbljnasflkndfvfjndfvbdd.....

"So I'm going to offer a percentage of ANNUAL rainfall to prove my point, but then have that 54% of yearly rainfall fall over 58% of the year thus categorically proving it is LESS likely to rain during footy season"

[/QUOTE

Facts are the footy season runs March through to September, even you're not stupid enough to deny this.
Facts are 54% of Melbourne's average yearly rainfall is throughout that period. Doesn't matter if this a greater proportion of the year, it's when the footy season is played.
Facts still remain despite attaching pretty memes and steering the subject to specifics of Melbourne's average yearly rainfall you still haven't put up anything other than rhetoric that supports your claims that I initially responded to.
Fact.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

geez i think they need to rename this thread 'oriental dick measuring contest'

at least the cripps-merrett thread comes from africa

 

[drazah]

Gotta be Richmond. They've been pushing finals for the last few years, even if they have done **** all.

Carlton will be bad for a long time.

Essendon will be folded before they win another premiership*.

* If Gil has been reading my letters.