Mega Thread Non-Freo AFL Discussion 2023

[Snuffaluphagus]

theres no way that list is near top 4, media hype around their big names has everyone lost

you cant have a top 4 list if youre playing jack silvagni, ed curnow, fisher, cottrell, motlop, young etc

I think a good coach / system / culture takes those "laughing stocks" and turns them into "solid role players." See what Scott and Ross have done with what everyone thought were completely meh lists

 

[Mags98]

Ahh I missed that Johnny Dalmas but to be fair, I dont think you can claim a list is bottom 5 and then not discuss two thirds of the ground

i reckon he sort of can when that midfield is supposed to be their best line theyre forward line would be outscored by us when we had **** all KPFs, docherty racks up the ball but does he do all that much with it? as he mentioned saad for some reason hardly touches the ball when they should be offloading to him at every chance, then they brought it young to deputise Weitering lol theyre cooked

 

[Mags98]

I think a good coach / system / culture takes those "laughing stocks" and turns them into "solid role players." See what Scott and Ross have done with what everyone thought were completely meh lists

tbf both those lists had just recently made finals and shown at least some pedigree. coaching merry go round certainly isnt helping carlton, but dont think its as simple as sacking voss

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

tbf both those lists had just recently made finals and shown at least some pedigree. coaching merry go round certainly isnt helping carlton, but dont think its as simple as sacking voss

I'd agree it's not as simple as sacking Voss, there's something inherently wrong there and I have no idea what they do to fix it

 

[Mags98]

I'd agree it's not as simple as sacking Voss, there's something inherently wrong there and I have no idea what they do to fix it

ive seen some discussion as well about cripps putting down the tools when he wants/sees a coach about to get sacked. happened wiht bolton/teague and now voss..

bit of an indictment, espeically after his insta post, would have expected him to put in a captains performance

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

Did you deliberately exclude a genuinely good KPD in Weitering and the best key forward in the game in Curnow? Not to mention a decent KPF in McKay?

Carlton's list might be over-hyped but saying it's bottom 5 is nutty. That list should be playing finals as far as I'm concerned, not contending or doing any real damage but not making finals with the names you've mentioned (and excluded) is an abject failure

Bottom 6 (not 5).

And No, I said I could go on discussing other players. But poor midfields matter. Their top end talent isn't the problem. A small group of very good players don't make a strong list. But a whole bunch of over-hyped bog average players make a poor list.

On Weitering : he is a very good 1 on 1 defender. Bit of an ordinary kick. Poor backline leader. OK, fair enough, leadership might not be his strength. Unfortunately for Carlton, they don't have a good backline leader to complement Weitering. And he is surrounded by guys like ... Brodie Kemp, Lewis Young, Alex Cincotta, Jordan Boyd, McGovern and Saad.

Honestly look at that backline. Its diabolical. Having a high profile full back in Weitering doesn't magically make the rest of them good.

So who would you recruit out of their backline? You would 100% grab Weitering.

On Curnow : an excellent player. You would absolutely recruit him tomorrow. But just like the backline, who is he surrounded by: Harry McKay (good player poor season), Jesse Motlop (unproven kid), Owies and Martin (ordinary), Sam Walsh (playing out of position), Silvagni (hard worker, takes on thankless jobs, but no more than a good average player).

OK so from the forwards you definitely recruit Curnow and McKay. Silvagni as a free agent would be handy in your squad, and Motlop on potential. (I've already mentioned Walsh as a midfielder).

OK, across two posts I have now mentioned 19 players. How many would Freo want?

Curnow, Walsh, Cerra, Weitering, Cripps, McKay, Silvagni (if free) and Motlop (on potential).

That is only 8 out of 19 that I have mentioned (perhaps we should have another thread to go through the full list?). It really isn't a good list. Its not WCE bad -- of course I'm not saying that -- but it really isn't a top 8 list.

Here is a proxy measure for comparing their list to ours: averages for age, games played, Brownlow votes. I don't think its the best ever proxy, but it has the advantage to being easy to work out (thanks to draftguru.com.au) and I'm lazy.

Average age: Freo = 23.9 years. Carlton = 24.6 years.
Average games played: Freo = 54 games Carlton = 62.1 games.
Average Brownlow votes per player: Freo = 9.5 votes/player. Carlton = 7.5 votes/player

In short Carlton's list is older, but have played less games. Or, Carlton's list make-up is of too many players who have been around the industry for years and yet never cemented a regular spot season-in-season-out. TL;DR too many depth/fringe players. Too many Matthew Kennedys, Lewis Youngs, Matthew Owies, Paddy Dows, Lochie O'Briens, etc

And when they do play they don't get Brownlow votes as often (ie they don't play as many high quality games). This is a pretty weak indicator of "quality", and if there is a better one out there at some website I'd be happy to use it (maybe average Coaches votes per player? Or average ratings points per player?)

But the point is as an overall list they are older, not playing as much (across their years in the system), and not playing as many good games as our list.

And our list is a long way short of the best in the comp.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Bottom 6 (not 5).

And No, I said I could go on discussing other players. But poor midfields matter. Their top end talent isn't the problem. A small group of very good players don't make a strong list. But a whole bunch of over-hyped bog average players make a poor list.

On Weitering : he is a very good 1 on 1 defender. Bit of an ordinary kick. Poor backline leader. OK, fair enough, leadership might not be his strength. Unfortunately for Carlton, they don't have a good backline leader to complement Weitering. And he is surrounded by guys like ... Brodie Kemp, Lewis Young, Alex Cincotta, Jordan Boyd, McGovern and Saad.

Honestly look at that backline. Its diabolical. Having a high profile full back in Weitering doesn't magically make the rest of them good.

So who would you recruit out of their backline? You would 100% grab Weitering.

On Curnow : an excellent player. You would absolutely recruit him tomorrow. But just like the backline, who is he surrounded by: Harry McKay (good player poor season), Jesse Motlop (unproven kid), Owies and Martin (ordinary), Sam Walsh (playing out of position), Silvagni (hard worker, takes on thankless jobs, but no more than a good average player).

OK so from the forwards you definitely recruit Curnow and McKay. Silvagni as a free agent would be handy in your squad, and Motlop on potential. (I've already mentioned Walsh as a midfielder).

OK, across two posts I have now mentioned 19 players. How many would Freo want?

Curnow, Walsh, Cerra, Weitering, Cripps, McKay, Silvagni (if free) and Motlop (on potential).

That is only 8 out of 19 that I have mentioned (perhaps we should have another thread to go through the full list?). It really isn't a good list. Its not WCE bad -- of course I'm not saying that -- but it really isn't a top 8 list.

Here is a proxy measure for comparing their list to ours: averages for age, games played, Brownlow votes. I don't think its the best ever proxy, but it has the advantage to being easy to work out (thanks to draftguru.com.au) and I'm lazy.

Average age: Freo = 23.9 years. Carlton = 24.6 years.
Average games played: Freo = 54 games Carlton = 62.1 games.
Average Brownlow votes per player: Freo = 9.5 votes/player. Carlton = 7.5 votes/player

In short Carlton's list is older, but have played less games. Or, Carlton's list make-up is of too many players who have been around the industry for years and yet never cemented a regular spot season-in-season-out. TL;DR too many depth/fringe players. Too many Matthew Kennedys, Lewis Youngs, Matthew Owies, Paddy Dows, Lochie O'Briens, etc

And when they do play they don't get Brownlow votes as often (ie they don't play as many high quality games). This is a pretty weak indicator of "quality", and if there is a better one out there at some website I'd be happy to use it (maybe average Coaches votes per player? Or average ratings points per player?)

But the point is as an overall list they are older, not playing as much (across their years in the system), and not playing as many good games as our list.

And our list is a long way short of the best in the comp.

Isnt Carltons list slighty older and have player slightly more games? I maintain, all the list cloggers people mention would at least be decent role players under a different coach and / or culture. You could go through Essendon and St Kilda who probably make finals and I could do the same thing with their list where there would be 10ish players I'd take while the rest arent really upgrades on what we have.

Carlton should be playing finals with that list, agree to disagree and definitely disagree on it being a "bottom 5 list"

 

[poshman]

Isnt Carltons list slighty older and have player slightly more games? I maintain, all the list cloggers people mention would at least be decent role players under a different coach and / or culture. You could go through Essendon and St Kilda who probably make finals and I could do the same thing with their list where there would be 10ish players I'd take while the rest arent really upgrades on what we have.

Carlton should be playing finals with that list, agree to disagree and definitely disagree on it being a "bottom 5 list"

I think your point should also be clear given what we saw when the bears were able to take in 10 players from another club.

Most clubs could make an argument they would only take ten from another team and no more.

The other side of it is a form and recency bias thing. If they were playing well as a team they would be considered better than they are.

I think they have a 8-13 list.

And the top end is very, very good.

 

[Johnny Dalmas]

I think Lyon as coach would have Carlton playing finals (at least in the short term). But I also think Lyon has got some pretty ordinary lists to over-achieve.

I don't think too many would have really rated St Kilda at the beginning of the year. I don't think many really rated our list in 2012 (not to the extent that it achieved across 2013-2015 anyhow).

But that's a little bit different to saying that Carlton has a "good" list that Voss is somehow messing up.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I think Lyon as coach would have Carlton playing finals (at least in the short term). But I also think Lyon has got some pretty ordinary lists to over-achieve.

I don't think too many would have really rated St Kilda at the beginning of the year. I don't think many really rated our list in 2012 (not to the extent that it achieved across 2013-2015 anyhow).

But that's a little bit different to saying that Carlton has a "good" list that Voss is somehow messing up.

I definitely agree it's not all on Voss, there is like a two decade history now of coaches not being able to make it work there - and they've had their fair share of coaches. I dont know what it is, I dont think they know what it is but something causes their lists to continuously underperform

 

[ignoramus]

I definitely agree it's not all on Voss, there is like a two decade history now of coaches not being able to make it work there - and they've had their fair share of coaches. I dont know what it is, I dont think they know it is but something causes their lists to continuously underperform

Brown paper bags?

 

[anchor man]

I definitely agree it's not all on Voss, there is like a two decade history now of coaches not being able to make it work there - and they've had their fair share of coaches. I dont know what it is, I dont think they know it is but something causes their lists to continuously underperform

Maybe, they like North Melbourne have never been able to get it together without cheque book recruiting.
Both have in th epast been very successful at that.

 

[Alfonz]

I think a large problem with Carlton is how much of their list is comprised of rejects or overpaid mercenaries.

It's about 8-10 of their best 22 and several more on the fringe, and hardly any of them would be welcomed back by their previous clubs. I don't think these players are really invested in Carlton.

 

[Taylor]

They really just need some speed in their midfield/half forward/wing group and they are fine. They are a strong stoppage team and they just need a roaming half forward/wing to offer some leads in the corridor when they are moving the ball out from from defense.

The talls can then split opposition defenses and the overlap handball can bring in smalls over the top of the pack.

They are really missing Zac Williams.

 

[FreoGirl]

Three weeks to Mansell..

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

I flat out dont agree he should have gotten any weeks at all but this is where we are at I suppose

 

[greatgatsby]

This site is fascinating. Every time we lose people console themselves with how bad Carlton are (or occasionally, how dire the Eagles are).

 

[FreoGirl]

I flat out dont agree he should have gotten any weeks at all but this is where we are at I suppose

Totally disagree - the impact to Aish saw his headband fly miles - was almost like a MVA. I'm all about protecting the head. Mansell could have tackled instead.

JOM's incident didn't even lead to a player leaving the ground.

 

[gaskin]

It is a bit harsh but he braced for contact instead of playing the ball and got Aish in the head with his shoulder and concussed him. He was always getting multiple weeks.

 

[Purple Jesus]

I flat out dont agree he should have gotten any weeks at all but this is where we are at I suppose

He straight-up shouldered him in the head after running full tilt. He braced for impact so he knew what he was doing. You can't have that not getting cited when Aish was then out of the game and out the next week when JOM got a week for a tackle that the guy immediately took the free kick, played out the game and then the next week. Consistency is what I want. Not whatever the **** random outcomes.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

He straight-up shouldered him in the head after running full tilt. He braced for impact so he knew what he was doing. You can't have that not getting cited when Aish was then out of the game and out the next week when JOM got a week for a tackle that the guy immediately took the free kick, played out the game and then the next week. Consistency is what I want. Not whatever the * random outcomes.

The rules have changed this year, Mansell was always getting suspend but he braved for contact due to timing and Aish just getting to the ball first. If Manaell had gotten their first, Aish would have copped the same holiday.

Like I said, he was always getting suspended, I just don’t think these are the actions we should be going for. It was circumstance, not intent or carelessness

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

To further illustrate my point FreoGirl and prpl_jss, not one Freo player remonstrated in the slightest

 

[Purple Jesus]

The rules have changed this year, Mansell was always getting suspend but he braved for contact due to timing and Aish just getting to the ball first. If Manaell had gotten their first, Aish would have copped the same holiday.

Like I said, he was always getting suspended, I just don’t think these are the actions we should be going for. It was circumstance, not intent or carelessness

I don't agree with the first part. If you have time to brace, you have time to change direction or attempt to mitigate the contact. It was carelessness 100% and players have a duty of care to each other to not be negligent like that.

 

[Purple Jesus]

To further illustrate my point FreoGirl and prpl_jss, not one Freo player remonstrated in the slightest

They should have, that was shit.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

They should have, that was s**t.

The Freo guys have a strong history of going after shit acts but they know what the situation was so didn’t think it was justified