Training Pre season training

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SteeleSaints said:
Newnes was decent player, it was just his kicking that let him down. Im hoping Carroll can play a bit more inside and from what has been reported his kicking is quite good. There arent too many left footers who cant hit a target.
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Sorry what ? Jack newnes was an excellent kick was probably top 3 best kicks in our side his whole career with us
 
SaintsSeptember said:
Sharman kicked 1 goal less than Max this year, just saying. Membrey kicked 10 on top of that.
If other teams are triple teaming Max and leaving Cooper and Mitch Owens off the leash, and it doesn't go well for us, its not what they are doing, its who our team is kicking to. An unmanned Sharman is a weapon.
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I agree a lot was about our forward delivery and conversion, but not a lot has changed with our midfield. As I suggested Macrae will make a difference, but I dont see our clearance numbers improving significantly until we develop or recruit the elite midfielders required. Either way we are not going to completely be rid of the dump kicks, so having an alternative imposing tall forward will create separation and a more efficient functioning group.

Caminiti is talented but I dont see him as a natural or smart forward just yet. He may develop into one as he is only a baby games wise, but for his development and our team balance next year I think his best position is as our CHB. His attack and intercept marking would be a real asset and more than fill the Battle hole. The other issue with Caminiti like Max, he is far too often walked under the fall of the ball resulting in turnovers. The structure of playing in defence for a year or two will help his game no end.

In a scoring aspect Sharman or Owens as yet dont worry defenders, hence as a result their opponents zone off and triple team King. The other issue is very rarely do you see our tall forwards working or screening for each other. It is everyone up all attempting take screamers where they often spoil each other. Again that sole player mentallity leads their defenders to the fall of the ball which makes it easier to spoil.

Having Marshall down there allows King to almost play the 2nd tall forward role, he is a smart forward, not easily forced under the ball and is quite good defensively. King can then afford to get on his bike and get up the ground leading out.

Max is a huge figure forward but he is reticent to lead and take his opponent away from the square. I wonder if that was a coaching instruction to make it easier to lock the ball in? As we know if Max doesnt mark the ball it's generally going the other way a rate of knots, he struggles to create any defensive pressure.

Sharman is a talented lead up forward but he plays more of a tall flanker role than a key forward. Having said that there were too many times we ignored Sharmans leads, but as you mentioned getting the balance of dump kicks to honouring leads is down to those delivering the ball and not a lot has changed in our midfield.

Owens had a poor year compared to his previous year, there were times if we had others available he should have had a stint at Sandringham to find form ala Sharman & Membrey. I dont think we can rely on Owens to kick 40-50 goals a year like Membrey has in the past, but there is no doubt he contributes.

Functioning dangerous forward lines are not about individuals its about working as a group to kick a winning score. So in part our problem is the delivery, but the other aspect is getting the players to work for each other. Hopefully Bolton's coaching can fix the above and offer something different.
 
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SteeleSaints said:
I agree a lot was about our forward delivery and conversion, but not a lot has changed with our midfield. As I suggested Macrae will make a difference, but I dont see our clearance numbers improving significantly until we develop or recruit the elite midfielders required. Either way we are not going to completely be rid of the dump kicks, so having an alternative imposing tall forward will create separation and a more efficient functioning group.

Caminiti is talented but I dont see him as a natural or smart forward just yet. He may develop into one as he is only a baby games wise, but for his development and our team balance next year I think his best position is as our CHB. His attack and intercept marking would be a real asset and more than fill the Battle hole. The other issue with Caminiti like Max, he is far too often walked under the fall of the ball resulting in turnovers. The structure of playing in defence for a year or two will help his game no end.

In a scoring aspect Sharman or Owens as yet dont worry defenders, hence as a result their opponents zone off and triple team King. The other issue is very rarely do you see our tall forwards working or screening for each other. It is everyone up all attempting take screamers where they often spoil each other. Again that sole player mentallity leads their defenders to the fall of the ball which makes it easier to spoil.

Having Marshall down there allows King to almost play the 2nd tall forward role, he is a smart forward, not easily forced under the ball and is quite good defensively. King can then afford to get on his bike and get up the ground leading out.

Max is a huge figure forward but he is reticent to lead and take his opponent away from the square. I wonder if that was a coaching instruction to make it easier to lock the ball in? As we know if Max doesnt mark the ball it's generally going the other way a rate of knots, he struggles to create any defensive pressure.

Sharman is a talented lead up forward but he plays more of a tall flanker role than a key forward. Having said that there were too many times we ignored Sharmans leads, but as you mentioned getting the balance of dump kicks to honouring leads is down to those delivering the ball and not a lot has changed in our midfield.

Owens had a poor year compared to his previous year, there were times if we had others available he should have had a stint at Sandringham to find form ala Sharman & Membrey. I dont think we can rely on Owens to kick 40-50 goals a year like Membrey has in the past, but there is no doubt he contributes.

Functioning dangerous forward lines are not about individuals its about working as a group to kick a winning score. So in part our problem is the deliver, but the other aspect is getting the players to work for each other. Hopefully Bolton's coaching can fix the above and offer something different.
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Disagree

A full season out of Clark and Dow will make a difference

A fully fit Jack Steele will make a difference

Add on Macrae, a 3xAA with a point to prove

Add on a Phillipou in his third season who looks set to break out as he tears up the training track

Add on a Garcia after his second pre-season and also looks set to take another step in his development

And then guys like Sinclair, Henry, Wilson who could see more minutes as players with a unique skillset to our current crop of mids

And don't sleep on Max Hall, he could surprise a few this season

There is so much upside. Personnel-wise, yes, not much has changed. But as a young squad, these are the types of things you look forward to with so much development to come
 

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I am sure some people have a very short memory.

When Dow Clark and Jones got a full run at it and a decent block of games, our midfield was instrumental in us scoring so much better in the last two months of the season. Regularily over 100, won 6 out of 8 games beating Geelong, Sydney, Carlton and others we should beat. Port got us by 2 points right at the beginning of the 8 weeks and Brisbane just ragged dolled us.
Prior to that the Saints and Lyon were getting hammered by the supporters and press for being dour, moribund, over defensive and plain boring. It was because our mids were shattered and Lyon was trying to make it a scrap.

Once we had a semblance of a mid field with games under their belts, we ran teams off their feet.

Now we have Macrae, Phillipou fully fit, players like Dow, Carroll, Hall all pushing to rekindle their careers, and OOC's like Jones, Stocker and Clark looking to extend their careers.
We have the kids pushing up, already mentioned Pou, but also Garcia, Windy fully fit, and forgotten men Hastie and Arie aiming for HBF'ers jobs pushing the likes of Sinclair and NAZ maybe through the midfield. We also have Wilson and the kids who will want to press their claims.

Do we have that superstar? Well Macrae and Steele are AA, do we have the kids pushing up to be AA? Pou and Wilson are best bets in the mids, and Travaglia and Tauru could be anything (or nothing) in coming years.

The key to us being competitive is to have a low injury season. We keep mids on the field and our best mids, we can be a top eight team. We know we can run, but we need possession to do the damage. We get that with the mids we have if we can keep them on the park.
 
saintbill said:
Was at a Saints event a few months ago and Jake Batchelor said Wilson was the best runner he had ever seen in football, ALREADY!

Seriously excited about this kid.
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As I said the other day, Darcy brained the comp in distance covered at high speed in games last year.

I’ve now been through the tracking of dozens of AFL games last season and the most I’ve seen anyone else do at high speed in a game was a 4.2km, from Ollie Hollands, yet Darcy did that or better on 9 occasions! With a PB of 4.6km.

In loads of games no-one from either team topped 3km.

What was also remarkable was that in that stretch where we played 3 games in 11 days, he covered 4.6km in the middle game, and then 4.3km in the 3rd one, off a 5 day break. While also covering the most total distance of anyone on the ground that night by 0.7km.

Here are his tracking numbers for the year for total ground covered and distance at high speed.

If there’s a ? he wasn’t in the top 5, and the number in brackets shows where in the top 5 he was ranked, if he was.

R1- ? And 3.5 (1)
R2- ? And 3.6 (1)
R3- ? And 3.5 (1)
R4- ? And 3.0 (1)
R5- 16.1 (1) and 4.6 (1)
R6- 15.2 (1) and 4.3 (1)
R7- 16.1 (1) and 4.4 (1)
R8- 14.7 (4) and 3.8 (1)
R9- 15.4 (1) and 4.2 (1)
R10- 15.9 (1) and 4.5 (1)
R11- 15.2 (2) and 4.3 (1)
R12- 15 (1) and 3.6 (1)
R13- ? and 3.4 (1)
R14- 15.5 (1) and 3.8 (1)
R15- Bye
R16- 13.7 (5) and 4.4 (1)
R17- ? And 3.7 (2)
R18- ? And 2.6 (5)
R19- ? And 3.3 (2)
R20- ? And 3.4 (=1)
R21- ? And 3.3 (=1)
R22- 15.0 (1) and 4.3 (1)
R23- 15.5 (1) and 4.2 (1)
R24- ? And 3.2 (1)

So it took him until R5 before he really got going, then he had an incredible stretch through to R16, after which he dropped right off for the next 5 weeks (injury?), before bouncing back late.

Unsurprisingly, his form dropped off noticeably during the period late when his tracking numbers dropped.
 
saintmike65 said:
Watching Carroll at training he does have some handy attributes!
Has some acceleration out of traffic, kicks it well & is a good size at 188cm…we’ll know a bit more when match sim and trial games start post Christmas
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I'm never going to trust practice matches again. I thought Bonner was going to reinvent football after watching the Essington practice match last year.
 
Sippa said:
Sorry what ? Jack newnes was an excellent kick was probably top 3 best kicks in our side his whole career with us
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Jack Newnes had everything except explosive pace. We let him decline through never having to worry about being selected I reckon. He coasted until he couldn't turn it back on.
Would have had a terrific career if he'd been at a club that drove standards.
 
Nutsngum said:
Hawks will miss finals next year. Like us in 2020 they were very fortunate with a very healthy list and optimal timing versus their opponents. They have topped up like we did trying to fill holes but it wont work and their general game plan will have been worked out and shut down.
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Will be interesting to see if they also drink their own bathwater. Especially the “look at me, look at me” brigade.

They’re apparently 2nd-favourites for the flag!
 
The query re Carroll and possibly the reason Carlton were willing to let him go is what exactly is his role in a midfield?

He plays in the guts, yet his numbers at senior level and also in the VFL games I’ve seen show that he doesn’t get high contested, or clearance numbers, so what’s he in there for?

If you aren’t winning your own ball much, you’d better be super-high impact when you do get it, and he doesn’t seem to be, so that’s the potential issue.

And it sounds like he doesn’t have the elite running capabilities to run up and back all day on the wing.

So if he’s going to make it in the guts at AFL level, he needs to either significantly increase his contested and clearance numbers, significantly increase his impact per disposal, or have a significant enough increase of all of those areas.
 

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beside the seaside said:
I just get the feeling they've moved on from Keeler as a defender.
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I suspect what we’re hoping for is that Keels becomes the one we’re hoping for in the forward and backup ruck role, while we’re going to play Hammer down back in place of Battle.
 
Don’t think we need to “find two goals”. We already found that and possibly more, in the last couple of months. Once we were finally able to field a decently competitive midfield, and we significantly improved our scoring from front half turnovers and from our F50 entries.

So we just need to essentially keep doing what we were doing then.

We would have been top 5 or 6 on the “form ladder” over the last 13 rounds (our last 12 games), to go with being top 6 for every week of the 2023 H&A season bar one.

In between, we had a brutal draw, a truckload of injuries (especially to our midfield) and lost 5 games by 10 points or less. 4 of which were interstate or in Geelong, to teams who made the finals.

If everything happens to click for us, it will be top 4 we’re pushing for, not top 8. We’ve already been in the top 6 for most of the time under Lyon Mk2. Either on the actual ladder, or the “form” ladder.

The next step for us will be being able to consistently beat the top 4-6 teams.
 
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aussierulesrules said:
Don’t think we need to “find two goals”. We already found that and possibly more, in the last couple of months. Once we were finally able to field a decently competitive midfield, and we significantly improved our scoring from front half stoppages and from our F50 entries.

So we just need to essentially keep doing what we were doing then.

We would have been top 5 or 6 on the “form ladder” over the last 13 rounds (our last 12 games), to go with being top 6 for every week of the 2023 H&A season bar one.

In between, we had a brutal draw, a truckload of injuries (especially to our midfield) and lost 5 games by 10 points or less. 4 of which were interstate or in Geelong, to teams who made the finals.

If everything happens to click for us, it will be top 4 we’re pushing for, not top 8. We’ve already been in the top 6 for most of the time under Lyon Mk2. Either on the actual ladder, or the “form” ladder.

The next step for us will be being able to consistently beat the top 4-6 teams.
Click to expand...
I think this is the main thing to focus on.

But even with the improvement in the 2nd half of the year, we were still the worst team in the comp scoring from the front half over the entire season. If we can improve that area of our game, that's how we will kick winning scores more consistently rather than it coming from 1 player adding a few more goals.
 
BrutThough said:
I think this is the main thing to focus on.

But even with the improvement in the 2nd half of the year, we were still the worst team in the comp scoring from the front half over the entire season. If we can improve that area of our game, that's how we will kick winning scores more consistently rather than it coming from 1 player adding a few more goals.
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That was meant to be front half turnovers. Not sure where I got stoppages from. So are you referring to stoppages, or front half turnovers, where we were last for the whole season?
 
aussierulesrules said:
That was meant to be front half turnovers. Not sure where I got stoppages from. So are you referring to stoppages, or front half turnovers, where we were last for the whole season?
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I was referring to score origins - we were last from scoring from the front half of the ground while (equal) best for scoring from defensive 50. So essentially front half turnovers and stoppages, we sucked at both.

Also, we were 2nd last from scoring from stoppages overall, so an area to work on but not what I was originally referring too.


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aussierulesrules said:
Don’t think we need to “find two goals”. We already found that and possibly more, in the last couple of months. Once we were finally able to field a decently competitive midfield, and we significantly improved our scoring from front half turnovers and from our F50 entries.

So we just need to essentially keep doing what we were doing then.

We would have been top 5 or 6 on the “form ladder” over the last 13 rounds (our last 12 games), to go with being top 6 for every week of the 2023 H&A season bar one.

In between, we had a brutal draw, a truckload of injuries (especially to our midfield) and lost 5 games by 10 points or less. 4 of which were interstate or in Geelong, to teams who made the finals.

If everything happens to click for us, it will be top 4 we’re pushing for, not top 8. We’ve already been in the top 6 for most of the time under Lyon Mk2. Either on the actual ladder, or the “form” ladder.

The next step for us will be being able to consistently beat the top 4-6 teams.
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This is no time for commonsense.

According to many we are a bottom 4 rabble with no A grade talent going no where and are yet to bottom out. Ross can’t coach and we should merge with North!
 
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Joffaboy said:
I am sure some people have a very short memory.

When Dow Clark and Jones got a full run at it and a decent block of games, our midfield was instrumental in us scoring so much better in the last two months of the season. Regularily over 100, won 6 out of 8 games beating Geelong, Sydney, Carlton and others we should beat. Port got us by 2 points right at the beginning of the 8 weeks and Brisbane just ragged dolled us.
Prior to that the Saints and Lyon were getting hammered by the supporters and press for being dour, moribund, over defensive and plain boring. It was because our mids were shattered and Lyon was trying to make it a scrap.

Once we had a semblance of a mid field with games under their belts, we ran teams off their feet.

Now we have Macrae, Phillipou fully fit, players like Dow, Carroll, Hall all pushing to rekindle their careers, and OOC's like Jones, Stocker and Clark looking to extend their careers.
We have the kids pushing up, already mentioned Pou, but also Garcia, Windy fully fit, and forgotten men Hastie and Arie aiming for HBF'ers jobs pushing the likes of Sinclair and NAZ maybe through the midfield. We also have Wilson and the kids who will want to press their claims.

Do we have that superstar? Well Macrae and Steele are AA, do we have the kids pushing up to be AA? Pou and Wilson are best bets in the mids, and Travaglia and Tauru could be anything (or nothing) in coming years.

The key to us being competitive is to have a low injury season. We keep mids on the field and our best mids, we can be a top eight team. We know we can run, but we need possession to do the damage. We get that with the mids we have if we can keep them on the park.
Click to expand...

To me Dow's good games were few and far between. He's had issues, and needs this pre-season, and i agree with keeping him on, but to me he needs to be doing a bit more by the end of next year. He will still have 2026 to run on his contract and i hope he earns it.
 
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