Quiet on Kosi

[Jeremias]

Why are Carlton supporters so obsessed about our playing list?

Aren't you happy you got Ackland?

Don't flatter yourself or your team.

We're just interested in the talent that you do have, and the possibility of them wanting to join a team on the rise rather than a sinking ship.

 

[HBF]

Why are Carlton supporters so obsessed about our playing list?

Aren't you happy you got Ackland?

After getting Jezza, Wow Jones, Marcou, Sheldon and a few others, we are just trying to even the ledger. Ackland was an ok start, but we are now going after a bigger fish JD.

 

[gandaal]

Becuase we simply need to replace McLaren when he gets cut at the end of the year, and from what I have seen in the U18's this year, there are better prospects out there than Aisake and Jacobs. Kennedy is NOT a ruckman, and neither is Carlos for that matter.

Carlos could've fooled me the way he's been playing in the ruck. He's not a top quality ruckman yet but he's learning and he's fantastic around the ground.

Better prospects? History has shown that picking who is and isn't a better ruck prospect at U18s level is a pointless exercise, and Aisake could be anything besides. Maybe we will pick up another ruckman but we don't need another ruckman. The only reason we should even look at a ruckman in the draft is if he's considered the best available player at a particular selection.

Why's that?

Mature age. Hasn't shown anything at VFL level.

Lappin and Whitnall have been playing forward for the past few weeks, so they are already out of the defence. Saddo is doing a job at the minute, and his form has been sound, and there is no reason why he couldn't continue next year. Banno played on Johnson for a half against the 'doggies, and then followed C.Cornes around on Saturday night.

Lappin has but Whitnall has been playing in defense. He was tried up forward earlier in the year but surprisingly it didn't work out. Been playing in defence over the last few weeks.

FWIW, my back 6 for round 1 next year would be:

Backs: Scotland O'hailpin Saddington
H-Backs: Anderson Thornton Bower

Others we could rotate back through there could be Bannister, Walker and Whitnall.

If Walker is playing in defense Round 1 next year something has seriously gone wrong. Next year isn't the worry although Anderson and Bower aren't guarenteed players at this point, O'hAilpin struggled in defense and has only shone in the ruck/floating around CHF. We don't draft for next year, what we're looking at is three years down the track when Whitnall, Saddington, Lappin are gone and O'hAilpin will hopefully be a full time ruckman. We need defenders because we're screwed in three years if we think we can just rely on Anderson, Flint and Bower all making it as key defenders who can take a forward and shut him out of a game.

 

[HBF]

Carlos could've fooled me the way he's been playing in the ruck. He's not a top quality ruckman yet but he's learning and he's fantastic around the ground.

We were thrashed out of the middle on Saturday night, and that's becuase Lade and Brogan completely dominated in the ruck. Carlos has been ok, but his spot is in defence, and not in the ruck.

Better prospects? History has shown that picking who is and isn't a better ruck prospect at U18s level is a pointless exercise, and Aisake could be anything besides. Maybe we will pick up another ruckman but we don't need another ruckman. The only reason we should even look at a ruckman in the draft is if he's considered the best available player at a particular selection.

I can name 2 or 3 players in the U18's that are better prospects than both Jacobs and Aisake, and that doesn't include Kruezer. Every club passed on Jacobs, but these guys WILL be selected in the ND, make no mistakes about that. Furthermore, 2 of the ruckman you are talking about are still rookie listed, so they are not good enough to be on our senior list. McLaren is gone and will be cut at the end of the year, and Hammo, whilst an unbelievable prospect, has only been playing Aussie Rules for 2 years since converting from soccer, and has quite a fair way to go.

Mature age. Hasn't shown anything at VFL level.

Diagree with that statement

Lappin has but Whitnall has been playing in defense. He was tried up forward earlier in the year but surprisingly it didn't work out. Been playing in defence over the last few weeks.

Err, no he hasn't. Whitnall played forward against both Bulldogs and Port. Not sure which game you were watching.

If Walker is playing in defense Round 1 next year something has seriously gone wrong. Next year isn't the worry although Anderson and Bower aren't guarenteed players at this point, O'hAilpin struggled in defense and has only shone in the ruck/floating around CHF. We don't draft for next year, what we're looking at is three years down the track when Whitnall, Saddington, Lappin are gone and O'hAilpin will hopefully be a full time ruckman. We need defenders because we're screwed in three years if we think we can just rely on Anderson, Flint and Bower all making it as key defenders who can take a forward and shut him out of a game.

I said Walker was an option, and didn't have him in my starting 6. There is always the option of moving Waite back there as well, and give some more game time to Wiggins, and even give Edwards a shot in the team as well. Furthermore, there aren't alot of quality defenders in this years draft, and of the few that are any good, they will need time to develop.

 

[siamang]

Kosi would never want to play for carlscum.

 

[HBF]

Kosi would never want to play for carlscum.

Obviously you are new, but do yourself a favour and read the rules about entering other teams boards.

The mods on here aren't very lenient to that sort of shyte.

 

[gandaal]

We were thrashed out of the middle on Saturday night, and that's becuase Lade and Brogan completely dominated in the ruck. Carlos has been ok, but his spot is in defence, and not in the ruck.

You expect him to be a top line ruck in his first year in the job? He's hardly ready to dominate in the ruck yet but that doesn't mean he'll never get their. He's shown far more in the ruck and around the ground then he has as a defender

I can name 2 or 3 players in the U18's that are better prospects than both Jacobs and Aisake, and that doesn't include Kruezer. Every club passed on Jacobs, but these guys WILL be selected in the ND, make no mistakes about that. Furthermore, 2 of the ruckman you are talking about are still rookie listed, so they are not good enough to be on our senior list. McLaren is gone and will be cut at the end of the year, and Hammo, whilst an unbelievable prospect, has only been playing Aussie Rules for 2 years since converting from soccer, and has quite a fair way to go.

A clearly better prospect than Aisake? A 202 cm ruckman who moves like Buddy Franklin, I find that hard to believe. And I find it hard to believe that anyone can definatively state that these players wil be better than him given how difficult it is to identify 18 year old ruckman who'll have the tools when they're 24 to be a quality AFL ruckman. Jacobs fell through because he's a big lumbering ruckman in the old fashion sense who won't be winning any athletic competitions soon. Doesn't mean he won't end up as a better ruckman than anyone from his draft or the one coming up, just that he's never going to be Josh Fraser.

Diagree with that statement

What has he shown that makes you think he'll be kept on the list?

Err, no he hasn't. Whitnall played forward against both Bulldogs and Port. Not sure which game you were watching.

He floated forwards at times but he spent most of the games floating around our defensive half picking up cheap possesions without bothering to pick up a forward. Go watch a replay if you want confirmation.

I said Walker was an option, and didn't have him in my starting 6. There is always the option of moving Waite back there as well, and give some more game time to Wiggins, and even give Edwards a shot in the team as well. Furthermore, there aren't alot of quality defenders in this years draft, and of the few that are any good, they will need time to develop.

Waite isn't a natural defender. He's made that fairly clear and regardless you'd want a guy with that kind of game breaking talent up forward where he'll do the most damage.

We need defenders but if there aren't any available then we don't pick any. It's something we require but there's no point picking up a dud in the vain hope that he might turn things around.

 

[Bluebear]

After getting Jezza, Wow Jones, Marcou, Sheldon and a few others, we are just trying to even the ledger. Ackland was an ok start, but we are now going after a bigger fish JD.

Lappin and Rice were the start...........they lost points for Davenport though - squared up by Hamill getting a 5 year deal and playing (?) 10 games in that time.......almost made up for it with Ackland, but we could ice it with one of the Nicks.

 

[Bluebear]

Waite isn't a natural defender. He's made that fairly clear and regardless you'd want a guy with that kind of game breaking talent up forward where he'll do the most damage.

Hmmmm, I think Nick Riewoldt would disagree.
Just because he hasn't learned the discipline of defending doesn't mean he isn't a natural.........just may not have been fully tapped.
FWIW I prefer him forwards, but if the match up is there then bring it on.

You're both right, and wrong on Lance.
He has played forward and back against the Power, and played forward and left back (on the bench) vs the dogs.

 

[lopezz]

Kosi would never want to play for carlscum.

And how would kosi get a gig at the blues?? The bloke needs crutches. Eddy Betts would beat him in the ruck, just bump him in the first contest!!! The saints we all love to know are coming back to town and it would be just like them to keep hoping a guy in a wheel chair is gonna win them a flag! times up saints, you missed out AGAIN!
And thats what will happen to the blues if we look to take on these 'special' footballers! keep up the youth! put long hard thought into a Kerr style player and wait!

 

[gandaal]

Hmmmm, I think Nick Riewoldt would disagree.
Just because he hasn't learned the discipline of defending doesn't mean he isn't a natural.........just may not have been fully tapped.
FWIW I prefer him forwards, but if the match up is there then bring it on.

No doubt he would, but they'd be six or seven others who would agree with my assessment. Just because he's not a natural defender doesn't mean he can't perform a job in defense if he's the best player suited for it (such as Riewoldt) but he won't be playing out a season at CHB any time soon.

 

[Lukesta63]

Several posters here say we've got our defence covered.....so why have we conceded the most points so far this season.
Personally I feel we need KPP in defence, a nuggety back pocket and a star ruckman
E.g: Ben Rutten/Adam Hunter
Wirrapunda/Enright
Dean Cox

 

[HBF]

Not that I am conceeding the point here gandaal, but lets just agree to disagree. We're clearly looking at this from a differing point of veiw. Fair enough?

 

[Bluebear]

No doubt he would, but they'd be six or seven others who would agree with my assessment. Just because he's not a natural defender doesn't mean he can't perform a job in defense if he's the best player suited for it (such as Riewoldt) but he won't be playing out a season at CHB any time soon.

So I would think then, that despite the mistakes he made in the Lions game, it's fairly clear that he is a more than capable defender, and given that he hasn't been brought up doing it, one might argue that he looks very natural at times.

Are you confusing natural ability with a career backman, who has been brought up with the rules and disciplines of a defender.

You could argue that for an attacking player to do what he did to Nick that its quite natural, but he has much to learn to avoid the mistakes of the Lions match...........not trying to be argumentative, just a different point of view.

and again, for the record, I prefer him forward unless the match up dictate.

 

[Salaryman]

FWIW, at this stage, the only ruckman I would look at in the second round is McEvoy....he could well be gone by then, is also only 199cm, and has been playing as a KPP for Murray, swapping into the ruck with Simspon (205cm), not sure I would be using a second round pick on a ruckman. If we take one I would be looking at another on the rookie list. The Cloke and Ackland experiments show to me that we have faith in Zaccy and Hammo, and just need to wait a few years. Not opposed to drafting more ruckman, but lets make sure we maximise the chances they will be top rung....as gandaal said, drafting ruckman is really a bit of a lottery.

 

[gandaal]

Several posters here say we've got our defence covered.....so why have we conceded the most points so far this season.
Personally I feel we need KPP in defence, a nuggety back pocket and a star ruckman
E.g: Ben Rutten/Adam Hunter
Wirrapunda/Enright
Dean Cox

How many star ruckamn are there in the comp at any one time? Currently there's Cox and Sandilands (is he even a star or is he just a player with huge potential?)

Maybe Lade. Maybe Brogan (Port has the best ruck duo in the league). Maybe Charman. Maybe Everitt (he's a bit old and doesn't use the ball as well as he used to).

Quality rucks are pretty rare and extremely difficult to find. I don't want to end up like Brisbane or North in an endless search for a top class ruckman and end up with one good ruckman, a couple of average ones rotting on the list, and a couple of kids not getting a game. I'd rather take the mids and KPP we desperately need and hope that the prospects we do have stand up.

So I would think then, that despite the mistakes he made in the Lions game, it's fairly clear that he is a more than capable defender, and given that he hasn't been brought up doing it, one might argue that he looks very natural at times.

Are you confusing natural ability with a career backman, who has been brought up with the rules and disciplines of a defender.

You could argue that for an attacking player to do what he did to Nick that its quite natural, but he has much to learn to avoid the mistakes of the Lions match...........not trying to be argumentative, just a different point of view.

and again, for the record, I prefer him forward unless the match up dictate.

We must've been watching a different Waite because the Waite I've been watching in defense was beaten so often that he was sent back to the forward line where he made an immediate impact. I'm willing to admit that he thrashed Riewoldt, which is great because now we have the perfect player to play on Riewoldt in the future, but his impact on other opponents ranged from break even to beaten.

The experiment of Waite at CHB for the most part failed. Surely that's clear to everyone?

Not that I am conceeding the point here gandaal, but lets just agree to disagree. We're clearly looking at this from a differing point of veiw. Fair enough?

No problems, it was an interesting discussion

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

I'd even go after Jason Gram

 

[TruBlue]

Forget the fact that Kosi is injury prone.

I don't think he's ever going to be the player he was pumped up to be.

I'm not saying Kosi is crap or anything like that i'm just saying maybe he's not as goos as what he was made out to be, the biggest problem i see with Kosi is he doesn't stay on his feet for a big guy he spends to much time falling over in contests.

 

[Salaryman]

How many star ruckamn are there in the comp at any one time? Currently there's Cox and Sandilands (is he even a star or is he just a player with huge potential?)

Maybe Lade. Maybe Brogan (Port has the best ruck duo in the league). Maybe Charman. Maybe Everitt (he's a bit old and doesn't use the ball as well as he used to).

Quality rucks are pretty rare and extremely difficult to find. I don't want to end up like Brisbane or North in an endless search for a top class ruckman and end up with one good ruckman, a couple of average ones rotting on the list, and a couple of kids not getting a game. I'd rather take the mids and KPP we desperately need and hope that the prospects we do have stand up.

Here here

 

[HBF]

My final word on this:

We need another ruckman on our list, even if it is as simple as replacing McLaren when he gets the chop at the end of the year. I'd much rather replace him with a 1st round (Kruezer) or second round (Bellchambers/McEvoy) than a ruckman later in the draft. We have to bite the bullet again and draft a ruckman.

In an ideal world, i'd love us to get in the draft:

First pick - Kruezer
Second pick onwards - Best Available

 

[BlueBelle]

Mids - yes
Defenders - No. We've covered that recently by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

I've read this thread and am confused by this comment HBF for the simple reason that you say we have covered the backline by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison yet you don't think we have covered the ruck by having guys like Hampson, Aisake, Jacobs developing in the Ants???

You backed up your "draft a ruckman" argument by saying the jury is still out on Aisake and Jacobs but I would say the same thing on Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

Bower has done nothing when he has been given a run in the seniors and the rest are yet to debut. IMO, the jury is still out on them as well.

The guys holding down these positions at the moment are doing a good job and the others are developing in the VFL. We don't have any pure midfielders developing in the VFL and IMHO that is our weakest link.

Hopefully we can fix that by throwing some money at an experienced mid out of contract at the end of the year.

As for who we go for in the draft, I don't think we need to concentrate on one particular area. I think we need to get the best available. The kids we have at the Ants are developing nicely and hopefully next year we will have our own VFL side. I think this will benefit them even more

 

[HBF]

I've read this thread and am confused by this comment HBF for the simple reason that you say we have covered the backline by drafting Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison yet you don't think we have covered the ruck by having guys like Hampson, Aisake, Jacobs developing in the Ants???:

Because we have drafted heavily in defenders in recent times, with O'hailpin, Bower, Flint, Jamison, Austin, Anderson and even Edwards can play down there as well. That's 7 players. And we also have Thornton, Saddington, Banno, and even Waite has played down there as well.

You backed up your "draft a ruckman" argument by saying the jury is still out on Aisake and Jacobs but I would say the same thing on Bower, Austin, Flint and Jamison.

Bower continues to do very well for the Ants, and has shown that he is too good for the VFL. It will only be a matter of time before he is a consistent fixture in the Carlton team. Flint was very close to selection last year before he was injured, and Austin and Jamison have shown glimpses in the VFL. The jury is still out on the defenders, I agree, but how many of these types can we have on our list?

Bower has done nothing when he has been given a run in the seniors and the rest are yet to debut. IMO, the jury is still out on them as well.

Perhaps giving him some more game time and not dropping him after 1 week might be a good start.

The guys holding down these positions at the moment are doing a good job and the others are developing in the VFL. We don't have any pure midfielders developing in the VFL and IMHO that is our weakest link.

I don't know why you guys think I am advocating not to get a mid. I am. BUT, we also need another good developong ruckman. IMHO, we should take a ruckman and a mid with our first 2 selections in this years draft.

Hopefully we can fix that by throwing some money at an experienced mid out of contract at the end of the year.

Judd, Dal Santo, come on down.

As for who we go for in the draft, I don't think we need to concentrate on one particular area. I think we need to get the best available. The kids we have at the Ants are developing nicely and hopefully next year we will have our own VFL side. I think this will benefit them even more

I'm sure WH and his team will do the right thing come November.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Lets throw up our 2nd rounder for John Meeson.

 

[HBF]

Lets throw up our 2nd rounder for John Meeson.

Or Maric

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Or Maric

Ivan won't leave the Lade.

Meesen will.