Play Nice Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group:

(Edited 6 April 2023)

These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around Australia):

"A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?"

As well as that, it will be put to Australians that the constitution be amended to include a new chapter titled "Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples".

The details would be:


View attachment 1636890

The Prime Minister has committed to the government introducing legislation with this wording to parliament on 30 March 2023 and to establishing a joint parliamentary committee to consider it and receive submissions on the wording, providing ALL members of Parliament with the opportunity to consider and debate the full details of the proposal.

Parliament will then vote on the wording in June in the lead up to a National Referendum.

The ANU has issued a paper responding to common public concerns expressed in relation to the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice here:

Indigenous Voice to Parliament | Australian National University

Responding to common concerns about an aboriginal and torres strait islander voice First Nations portfolio Background

www.anu.edu.au

Summary details of the key points from this paper may be found in Chief post here:

The Uluru Statement from the Heart:

Not specifically No. In any case it does not form part of the Referendum proposal.

View attachment 1769742

Seeing as things have gotten a bit toxic in here, let's try to return things to a more civil tone.

The following will result in warnings to begin with, and if said behaviour continues will be escalated:

• referring to another poster as racist without direct provocation.
• dismissing or deriding another poster's lived experience.
• personal attacks or one line posts designed solely to insult or deride.

You might notice that the final rule is from the board rules. Thought we should probably remember that this is against the rules in case it's been forgotten.

Let's play nicely from here, people.

 

[JackOutback]

The idea that you can deny Aboriginal people the very thing they are asking for and then 'unite the country' shows you everything you need to know about Dutton. He's not delusional, he knows he can't, he's just an arseh*le putting politics above people.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I'm sure Aldi doesn't have any racist policies, but I went to Aldi this week, my wife who's Asian, had her bag checked on the way out, even though she didn't purchase anything. She left while I was still shopping.

When I lined up at the isle, a black man in front of me had his bag checked, when it was my turn they didn't even bother to check.

The Aldi i go to has mostly people of Asian and Indian appearance working there.
Sometimes they check my bag, sometimes they don't bother. It seems to be at the discretion of the worker.
I used to cycle home with a backpack and stop in on the way. If i left it on my back they never checked it.

I've noticed you are likely to get a bag check if you leave any supermarket without purchasing anything.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

In Derby (North WA) you get asked to show your drivers licence or car keys to buy take away alcohol.
This is because most local Aboriginals have neither and it's a way to say no to them. So they hang around outside
and ask people going into the bottle shop to buy it for them. Is that racist ? Not sure if it an actual law or not.

Yes there are laws relating to responsible service of alcohol. Refuse supply to intoxicated persons. Refuse supply to an under age person. Drunk and disorderly people not allowed on premises. If there has been a history of trouble then it may affect decisions under these laws. Being Indigenous is not one of the criteria

 

[Rob R]

We're looking to counter Chinese influence in the Pacific, how do you think those countries might look at a no result when we're trying to sell ourselves as the good guys?

In comparison to Xis China that forcibly sterilises minority groups, banned Africans from stores, has death camps? It doesn't help our messaging but it is money that will decide the SWP not this issue.

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[Ice-Wolf]

Seems like Warren Mundine knows all the answers but doesn't have any idea of how to get to them.

Education - yep good, how though?
Economic Participation - yep good, how though?
Ect. ect. ect.

 

[CM86]

Yes there are laws relating to responsible service of alcohol. Refuse supply to intoxicated persons. Refuse supply to an under age person. Drunk and disorderly people not allowed on premises. If there has been a history of trouble then it may affect decisions under these laws. Being Indigenous is not one of the criteria

Can you think of a single reason why "history of trouble" may impact people of lower socioeconomic status, than others?

And based on that, considering the vast over-representation of Indigenous people in that category, how it could be something that 'almost deliberately' targets Indigenous people, without explicitly stating it?


Or do you genuinely feel that the only reason for the disparate outcome for Indigenous people represented by those laws... it's something to do with being Indigenous?

 

[Saint Shags]

Seems like Warren Mundine knows all the answers but doesn't have any idea of how to get to them.

Education - yep good, how though?
Economic Participation - yep good, how though?
Ect. ect. ect.

Warren Mundine also suggests that most Indigenous Australians are doing just fine...

 

[CM86]

I mean I'm not sure other countries would be taking particular notice, but I guess we'll see what happens.

Do you think it's possible that your view of this situation, might taint your expectation from a Global perspective?


In the same way you're assuming these poster's views are tainting their expectations?

 

[CM86]

Why do we have any racist laws you can name?
You're being pretty silly.

Can you name the last point in Australian history, that we had a racist law?

As in, something explicit, which is what you're requesting.


When you can't.
Can you explain your view of the Stolen generation?
Or, can you explain your view of the NT Intervention?

And when you can't.

Considering there are no "racist laws"... Can you explain why YOU BELIEVE that Indigenous people are, on average, so over-represented in negative outcomes in Australia, including major cities like Sydney and Melbourne?

Without referring to genetics/culture/race in some form.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Sounds like Mundine thinks that Aboriginals that are doing it tough are mostly just bludgers.

 

[CM86]

I really hate the term used against people like Nyunggai Mundine.
I don't care who uses it, or who it's used against.
To me, it's just part of the divisiveness we see promoted by Nyunggai Mundine.

 

[Saint Shags]

I really hate that term.
I don't care who uses it, or who it's used against.
To me, it's just part of the divisiveness we see promoted by Nyunggai Mundine.

I understand the hurt and anger. But you're above it in so many ways!

It just feeds the problem.
Can call him plenty of names.
That one is not one of them. In my humble opinion.

 

[JackOutback]

Sounds like Mundine thinks that Aboriginals that are doing it tough are mostly just bludgers.

Just sticking to the Liberal Party line like a good foot soldier.

 

[campbell]

I really hate that term.
I don't care who uses it, or who it's used against.
To me, it's just part of the divisiveness we see promoted by Nyunggai Mundine.

I understand the hurt and anger. But you're above it in so many ways!

Sorry had a bad day.
I was abused by a patient for being who I was, saying I get too much, as I am Indigenous.
I should be thankful for everything I have as we were savages before white man came.
He was vile and nasty.

I am sick of being racially abused because of this yes and no vote.

I thought we as a nation were better than this, but alas.

Nothings changed if you were born on the wrong side of what is acceptable to most.
I am sick of being classed as a free loader.


When I work hard, and worked hard to get where I am. No handouts or anything for me and my mob.

but, still we get chastised.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

LOL avoiding the Treaty question like a good Liberal Party foot soldier.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Can you think of a single reason why "history of trouble" may impact people of lower socioeconomic status, than others?

And based on that, considering the vast over-representation of Indigenous people in that category, how it could be something that 'almost deliberately' targets Indigenous people, without explicitly stating it?


Or do you genuinely feel that the only reason for the disparate outcome for Indigenous people represented by those laws... it's something to do with being Indigenous?

History of trouble has nothing to do with socioeconomic status .... it must relate to drunk and disorderly conduct. If it did I'd assume it represents valid reason to refuse service. That's the only circumstance I can envisage where the law would provide a right to refuse service of alcohol . Was the town/ locality a problem area for indigenous alcohol abuse?

 

[CM86]

Sorry had a bad day.
I was abused by a patient for being who I was, saying I get too much, as I am Indigenous.
I should be thankful for everything I have as we were savages before white man came.
He was vile and nasty.

I am sick of being racially abused because of this yes and no vote.

I thought we as a nation were better than this, but alas.

Nothings changed if you were born on the wrong side of what is acceptable to most.
I am sick of being classed as a free loader.


When I work hard, and worked hard to get where I am. No handouts or anything for me and my mob.

but, still we get chastised.

I know (limited) and understand as much as I can who you are and what you are endlessly forced to live through.

I'm not trying to chastise you, or limit your language.

If I had even a fraction of the anger and hurt that you have, I couldn't control myself a smidgen as well as you do, constantly.

I really didn't mean it as anything against you. I'm purely against the term, due to what I believe it does and is used for, outside of your use of it.

 

[CM86]

History of trouble has nothing to do with socioeconomic status .... it must relate to drunk and disorderly conduct. If it did I'd assume it represents valid reason to refuse service. That's the only circumstance I can envisage where the law would provide a right to refuse service of alcohol . Was the town/ locality a problem area for indigenous alcohol abuse?

OK.

I'll try to break it down more.

Do you believe that a homeless person has a higher chance of receiving a charge for being "drunk and disorderly", than a non-homeless person?

 

[Gough]

Warren Mundine also suggests that most Indigenous Australians are doing just fine...

I'd assume opposition to the Voice pretty much presupposes that.

 

[Rob R]

Wow.

Australia is viewed as better than that?

Time to relax, lads! We're set!


Rules to survival:

Don't have to be the fastest, just have to avoid being the slowest!​

I was responding to a comment about our competition with Xi in the SWP - I never said we should relax or not do more

Of course we need to do much more, the gap figures are a disaster that need action. (In fact, the figures aren't needed to know we need to do more there are some wise posters on this forum whose personal experiences and shared stories tell us more than statistics can)

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[CM86]

I think this is an oversimplification, which - were I generalising about the right as you are doing the left - comes as a consequence of right wing thought requiring simple dichotomies to function.

... and that's where your oversimplification gets you.

You've created a strawman of a supposed leftist and decided to beat them around. Your argument looks strong because you've not actually engaged with the actual arguments left wing people have used in this thread.

Colourblindness?

There are numerous criticisms of a colourblind society that can be made. Others have made them better than I would here. The other issue is by generalising - again - you fail to engage the actual topic, which is the referendum into the Voice to Parliament.

An appeal to theory is only useful if you apply your theory to the actual topic in question.

Then we get to the backhand you're give as you back out away from the conversation, content in your input having said the things you wanted to say.

That, that behaviour right there, is intellectual cowardice. You're unwilling to test your ideas in the fires of argument.

Uh-huh.

I find it interesting how posts of this kind end. You've not come to any conclusion beyond mere repetition. You've not done much more than make a status quo argument, but in so doing you've performed strength rather than argued your case.

Then, at the end of it all, you have the preemptive tone policing: "Have a nice day." As though argument was something you welcomed, having debated away the structural inequality that has resulted in degradation for first nations people for the last 200+ years.

A society built on racism replicates that racism in unconscious ways. You are arguing that this isn't the case, but without really doing so because - frankly - 'there's no such thing as society'. You don't really have any other ideas to add, and that one's been done to death.

Brilliant post, thank you.

Dan26's post was such a scatter-gun of regurgitated talking points, that most people either couldn't be bothered engaging, or didn't know where to start.

But it's so important for certain posters - they know who they are - to see the pushback to this and such clear and concise refutations.

Dan26 and whoever supports his position, has the view that we have equality in Australia. And that all of the disparate outcomes for Indigenous people, is their fault.
They believe it's a genetic/racial/cultural/etc thing. Rather than even considering the possibility that it could be related to generational trauma, systemic racism, and just general racism.

They live by the idea that 'If it isn't an obvious barrier, or specific law, then racism isn't real'.
Because it supports their hateful view of Indigenous people.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

FFS ABC switch back to Dan Andrews resignation, Mundine is just waffling.

 

[CM86]

I was responding to a comment about our competition with Xi in the SWP - I never said we should relax or not do more

Of course we need to do much more, the gap figures are a disaster that need action. (In fact, the figures aren't needed to know we need to do more there are some wise posters on this forum whose personal experiences and shared stories tell us more than statistics can)

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Sorry, misread and confused you with another poster. I deleted it.

We can't compete with China in terms of financial incentives. We've always been competitive with our 'good' and 'humanitarian' aspects.

If we're all as 'bad as each other', in relative terms, then you're right money will and is deciding the outcome.

 

[CM86]

If you want people to see clear and concise refutations then post them for everyone to see and read.

Do not tag me again in a post that suggests I support a hateful view of indigenous people. I know exactly what you’re doing and its not going to fly.

Not going to ask you again.

End of story.

It's literally why I tagged you...

I quoted the post... And tagged you...

The tags have been removed now, due to moderation (that I support).

I tagged YOU, and others... because you LIKED the post... and it's important that you see the RESPONSE to it.






Please read it, if you still haven't.

Play Nice - Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament - Part 2

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group: (Edited 6 April 2023) These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around...

www.bigfooty.com

I cannot understand your response to my post, in comparison to your response to Dan's post.
Especially as our last interaction seemed so positive and friendly.

This is more than off topic. Please feel free to respond to me in this thread, and I will respond to you in PMs.

 

[Rob R]

Sorry, misread and confused you with another poster. I deleted it.

We can't compete with China in terms of financial incentives. We've always been competitive with our 'good' and 'humanitarian' aspects.

If we're all as 'bad as each other', in relative terms, then you're right money will and is deciding the outcome.

No problem, mate. Appreciate the apology, I do make stupid comments when I rush to type something from time to time and appreciate being challenged.

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