Play Nice Referendum - Indigenous Voice in Parliament - Part 2

[Gethelred]

Link to the proposed Referendum, from the Referendum Working Group:

(Edited 6 April 2023)

These are the words that will be put to the Australian people in the upcoming referendum as agreed by the Referendum Working Group (made up of representatives of First Nations communities from around Australia):

"A Proposed Law: to alter the Constitution to recognise the First Peoples of Australia by establishing an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. Do you approve this proposed alteration?"

As well as that, it will be put to Australians that the constitution be amended to include a new chapter titled "Recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples".

The details would be:


View attachment 1636890

The Prime Minister has committed to the government introducing legislation with this wording to parliament on 30 March 2023 and to establishing a joint parliamentary committee to consider it and receive submissions on the wording, providing ALL members of Parliament with the opportunity to consider and debate the full details of the proposal.

Parliament will then vote on the wording in June in the lead up to a National Referendum.

The ANU has issued a paper responding to common public concerns expressed in relation to the proposed Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice here:

Indigenous Voice to Parliament | Australian National University

Responding to common concerns about an aboriginal and torres strait islander voice First Nations portfolio Background

www.anu.edu.au

Summary details of the key points from this paper may be found in Chief post here:

The Uluru Statement from the Heart:

Not specifically No. In any case it does not form part of the Referendum proposal.

View attachment 1769742

Seeing as things have gotten a bit toxic in here, let's try to return things to a more civil tone.

The following will result in warnings to begin with, and if said behaviour continues will be escalated:

• referring to another poster as racist without direct provocation.
• dismissing or deriding another poster's lived experience.
• personal attacks or one line posts designed solely to insult or deride.

You might notice that the final rule is from the board rules. Thought we should probably remember that this is against the rules in case it's been forgotten.

Let's play nicely from here, people.

 

[Chief]

Secondly the Yes campaign can “anticipate“ all the improvements it likes but that’s not much good if you can’t convince people.

Jesus.

This is exactly what I said.

You don't read before responding.

 

[ElectricG]

It’s a shame the referendum was anonymous. Yes voters would’ve had their MENSA memberships fast tracked.

 

[Todman]

It's amazing, nearly everyone in this thread voted Yes. Even those that continued to complain about Yes voters and the Yes campaign, voted Yes. The vote turn out in this thread is like 90% yes, yet somehow 60% of the population voted No.

bigfooty is not real life.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

It’s a shame the referendum was anonymous. Yes voters would’ve had their MENSA memberships fast tracked.

Emotional intelligence is a superpower.

 

[Todman]

For a start, many people associated with the yes campaign were happy to wax lyrical about what they consider the motivating factors behind the campaign against the voice. Regardless of the accuracy of those thoughts, it was only going to drive a section of the community away, sections the voice needed to succeed. Elections are about doing what is required to win, especially when all that would have been required in this care (I want to be clear, I mean all they needed to do to address this issue with the campaign, not that this is the only thing that was missing in order to win) was not to use pejorative terms about their opponents. In short, the campaign lacked message discipline.

The government was damned if they did and damned if they didn't with regards to providing detail, specifically what the legislation would look like post a successful referendum. If both doors lead to damnation, provide the detail and then at least you are doing what your opponents do not expect, and the information is there to sell.

So that is two obvious errors IMO. Would it have made the difference in winning? Probably not, considering the lack of bipartisan support which dooms all referenda, but I'm sure the yes vote would have been higher.

Is the gap closed? Do we have indigenous recognition? Those campaigns are ongoing, although I was talking about the almost certain likelihood that political activists will continue to find themselves in political campaigns.

You and I have been around the block long enough to know that the "Legislation" has already been written. The fact that they refused to provide detail suggested to many that there was a too bitter pill to be digested.

 

[peetoo]

What I don’t get is why not just do it, like scomos ‘national cabinet’. Surely that change is unconstitutional

 

[peetoo]

You and I have been around the block long enough to know that the "Legislation" has already been written. The fact that they refused to provide detail suggested to many that there was a too bitter pill to be digested.

It was often a tactic suggested for a future republic referendum. Get the principle supported, then get parliament to go a second referendum with the detail
A bit like Brexit really.

Astonishingly monarchists here would have been pro brexit

 

[Osho]

They don't want you asking that question. They just want you to believe this is a mark against Albo and vote accordingly.

Well, I respect Albo for going with his gut. How many pollies do that these days? I just wish he was more strategic, and Yes could have prevailed.

 

[Roby]

bigfooty is not real life.

Oh, it's not? It's a made-up construct in your imagination?

 

[Crankyhawk]

There's obviously been too much broadbrushing and not enough nuance from the usual suspects from both sides and usually intentionally in bad faith.

For example the few that hold the view 'every no voter is a racist' < that's like saying 60% of the electorate are one neuron voters. If you seriously believe that than that's a failure of our democracy that you're allowed to vote.

Same for the 'look what you made me do' - the simplistic view from the no side that labeling is a very big part of the reason for the no vote. That's very snowflakey, being called a racist when you believe you aren't should not lead you to 'fu I'll vote no then'.

Such a shame civil discussion is tossed in favour of snarky bickering.

Spose I shouldn't expect better from the kindergarten actors in here.

My view is we contribute at the same level (or better) than the rich overpaid opinion types on mainstream media.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The constitutional change is the question.

It is after the change that law is finalised. This is how it works. It needs parliament to debate and vote.

That's all common knowledge, discussed a ton in here.

You think the opposition wouldn't scream the house down if a bill was created and publicised? Attack that detail in as disingenuously as they could? Then, say it got through, that the opposition wouldn't block anything they could, THEN say "oh look at the horrible, compromised legislation they managed to come up with!"

So, now we have a situation - as was always going to be the case - where Dutton etc have effectively stated that no amount of detail would have been enough. The Australian people, they say, voted against a voice (although, Cash says they voted against Albo... but also against "separatism"... it's very confused right now not that News and co are reporting on that).

They say we should all move on.

So there was not enough detail to vote for it, but enough detail to junk the whole idea based on that "no detail" vote?

The conclusion is pretty clear: for many people it wasn't a vote against enshrining the voice in the constitution - Dutton, Cash, Mundine etc included. It was a vote against Aboriginal people having any say at all. They're all lazy thieves and abusers, don't you know?

There will be no "set it up and see how it goes". The LNP, IPA, News Corp et al have made it clear they will viciously campaign against anything that looks like it might be related to an aboriginal voice. Their social media bots are going crazy spamming "We voted no to this!" at any mention of any Aboriginal body being formed - even by Aboriginal people off their own bat - to make representations to Parliament.

Agreed that's how it works ...could never understand the lack of detail concern. Fake argument

There is however an argument against your remark..."it was a vote against Aboriginal people having a say at all". You can hold whatever belief system you choose but truth is every single person in this country has a vote on equal basis currently and that is their say. That is the level playing field. You can say it's biased toward non indigenous. Sorry I can't make the 96% go away. They/ we are here to stay. The voice was attempting to elevate aboriginal advocacy beyond a level playing field. ML has activist roots and her belief is....' it's the least can be done'. most Australians acknowledge historical injustices including, genocidal massacres, dispossession and stolen generation, But most simply want unity and for Aborigines to also want that same unity. They uniformly think we are centuries down the track lets move on, lets walk together. We won't and never will until generational trauma is absolved. It seems a unattainable desire

Generational trauma inhibits unity. Generational trauma though isn't something embedded in DNA (apart from an inherited response to stress) or an externally produced trauma that exist with first hand experience as PTSD but is generated by belief systems that are influenced by intergenerational belief systems. It is handed down by what we experience and are taught by parents. The new generation will hate non indigenous with the venom of the old all the way back to original sin at colonisation. Some like Price and Mundine exit the cycle by personal choices and personal development. When they do they are derided as 'coconuts' by 'their' people as though entrenched hatred of non indigenous is the preferred and sensible choice and embracibg to assimilation is an abominable abandonment.

Native title restores dispossession as much as it can. Financial schemes provide reparations for stolen generation as much as it can too. The nation has said sorry. The nation has sanctioned a second national flag giving Aborigines self identity. We have welcome to country to show respect of culture. In all likelihood Australia day date will at some point be changed too to be more sensitive. It will never be enough because for many the hatred and mistrust is entrenched. Very sad but very true. Unity begets unity. Divisiveness begets divisiveness. I hate being called an invader to the land I love and In which I was born. It is a misnomer but one intentionally chosen to appease an angry heart influenced by generational trauma and hurt me for merely existing. I accept because I choose to be noble if I can be. Many won't.That's what happens. That is reality.

Each generation will hate a little less. Each generation will assimilate a little more. There is no panacea here. I'm the sort of person who likes to 'fix' things. This can only be fixed by gradual assimilation by choice and abandoning generational trauma. That is our mutual destiny

 

[South of the Yarra]

Agreed that's how it works ...could never understand the lack of detail concern. Fake argument

There is however an argument against your remark..."it was a vote against Aboriginal people having a say at all". You can hold whatever belief system you choose but truth is every single person in this country has a vote on equal basis currently and that is their say. That is the level playing field. You can say it's biased toward non indigenous. Sorry I can't make the 96% go away. They/ we are here to stay. The voice was attempting to elevate aboriginal advocacy beyond a level playing field. ML has activist roots and her belief is....' it's the least can be done'. most Australians acknowledge historical injustices including, genocidal massacres, dispossession and stolen generation, But most simply want unity and for Aborigines to also want that same unity. They uniformly think we are centuries down the track lets move on, lets walk together. We won't and never will until generational trauma is absolved. It seems a unattainable desire

Generational trauma inhibits unity. Generational trauma though isn't something embedded in DNA (apart from an inherited response to stress) or an externally produced trauma that exist with first hand experience as PTSD but is generated by belief systems that are influenced by intergenerational belief systems. It is handed down by what we experience and are taught by parents. The new generation will hate non indigenous with the venom of the old all the way back to original sin at colonisation. Some like Price and Mundine exit the cycle by personal choices and personal development. When they do they are derided as 'coconuts' by 'their' people as though entrenched hatred of non indigenous is the preferred and sensible choice and adhering to assimilation is an abominable abandonment.

Native title restores dispossession as much as it can. Financial schemes provide reparations for stolen generation as much as it can too. The nation has said sorry. The nation has sanctioned a second national flag giving Aborigines self identity. We have welcome to country to show respect of cul ofture.In all likelihood Australia day date will at some point be changed too to be more sensitive. It will never be enough because for many the hatred and mistrust is entrenched. Very sad but very true. Unity begets unity. Divisiveness begets divisiveness. I hate being called an invader to the land I love and In which I was born. It is a misnomer but one intentionally chosen to appease an angry heart influenced by generational trauma and hurt me for merely existing. I accept because I choose to be noble if I can be. Many won't.That's what happens. That is reality.

Each generation will hate a little less. Each generation will assimilate a little more. There is no panacea here. I'm the sort of person who likes to 'fix' things. This can only be fixed by gradual assimilation by choice and abandoning generational trauma. That is our mutual destiny

'Assimilation' is really not a great word to use around Aboriginal people nor is 'Aborigines'. Both can cause extreme hurt.

 

[Carringbush2010]

My view is we contribute at the same level (or better) than the rich overpaid opinion types on mainstream media.

Low bar then.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Agreed that's how it works ...could never understand the lack of detail concern. Fake argument

There is however an argument against your remark..."it was a vote against Aboriginal people having a say at all". You can hold whatever belief system you choose but truth is every single person in this country has a vote on equal basis currently and that is their say. That is the level playing field. You can say it's biased toward non indigenous. Sorry I can't make the 96% go away. They/ we are here to stay. The voice was attempting to elevate aboriginal advocacy beyond a level playing field. ML has activist roots and her belief is....' it's the least can be done'. most Australians acknowledge historical injustices including, genocidal massacres, dispossession and stolen generation, But most simply want unity and for Aborigines to also want that same unity. They uniformly think we are centuries down the track lets move on, lets walk together. We won't and never will until generational trauma is absolved. It seems a unattainable desire

Generational trauma inhibits unity. Generational trauma though isn't something embedded in DNA (apart from an inherited response to stress) or an externally produced trauma that exist with first hand experience as PTSD but is generated by belief systems that are influenced by intergenerational belief systems. It is handed down by what we experience and are taught by parents. The new generation will hate non indigenous with the venom of the old all the way back to original sin at colonisation. Some like Price and Mundine exit the cycle by personal choices and personal development. When they do they are derided as 'coconuts' by 'their' people as though entrenched hatred of non indigenous is the preferred and sensible choice and embracibg to assimilation is an abominable abandonment.

Native title restores dispossession as much as it can. Financial schemes provide reparations for stolen generation as much as it can too. The nation has said sorry. The nation has sanctioned a second national flag giving Aborigines self identity. We have welcome to country to show respect of culture. In all likelihood Australia day date will at some point be changed too to be more sensitive. It will never be enough because for many the hatred and mistrust is entrenched. Very sad but very true. Unity begets unity. Divisiveness begets divisiveness. I hate being called an invader to the land I love and In which I was born. It is a misnomer but one intentionally chosen to appease an angry heart influenced by generational trauma and hurt me for merely existing. I accept because I choose to be noble if I can be. Many won't.That's what happens. That is reality.

Each generation will hate a little less. Each generation will assimilate a little more. There is no panacea here. I'm the sort of person who likes to 'fix' things. This can only be fixed by gradual assimilation by choice and abandoning generational trauma. That is our mutual destiny

Secondly, I would suggest not many Aboriginal people 'hate' non-Aboriginal people. This is far from the truth. There is not hatred. there is hurt but not hatred. As for Inter-Generational trauma, it is not what people are taught by parents at all. There is so much offence and lack of understanding in this post that it is ridiculous.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

'Assimilation' is really not a great word to use around Aboriginal people nor is 'Aborigines'. Both can cause extreme hurt.

My apologies. I used it because I recently heard/ read that use of the word indigenous is offensive to indigenous people. I no longer know which is insensitive and which not. I heed your comment. As regards assimilation yes I understand it to be too clinical and has links to stolen generation too perhaps

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Secondly, I would suggest not many Aboriginal people 'hate' non-Aboriginal people. This is far from the truth. There is not hatred. there is hurt but not hatred. As for Inter-Generational trauma, it is not what people are taught by parents at all. There is so much offense and lack of understanding in this post that it is ridiculous.

I did a bit of reading relating to inter generational trauma because you never can fix something if you don't understand it in the first place. Not my place to fix of course but I like to understand all the same

My reading said it isn't in DNA other than inherited stress response which partially can. That means it comes from belief systems then driven by experience some of which is from parents. If I am wrong please give me a reference I can read to correct my understanding. Hurt v hate. Understand. Perhaps many are just hurt
Many though like Lydia Thorpe ooze hatred. Perhaps a mix then

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I did a bit of reading relating to inter generational trauma because you never can fix something if you don't understand it in the first place. Not my place to fix of course but I like to understand all the same

My reading said it isn't in DNA other than inherited stress response which partially can. That means it comes from belief systems then driven by experience some of which is from parents. If I am wrong please give me a reference I can read to correct my understanding. Hurt v hate. Understand. Perhaps many are just hurt
Many though like Lydia Thorpe ooze hatred. Perhaps a mix then

Hate is an individual thing.
Its not really something you can apply to a race.
But its possible that there are family's who raise the children and pass on their hate.
A young Palestinian probably isn't raised in a manner of "Jews are just people like you and me".

 

[Festerz]

 

[Reg Grundy35]

Agreed that's how it works ...could never understand the lack of detail concern. Fake argument

There is however an argument against your remark..."it was a vote against Aboriginal people having a say at all". You can hold whatever belief system you choose but truth is every single person in this country has a vote on equal basis currently and that is their say. That is the level playing field. You can say it's biased toward non indigenous. Sorry I can't make the 96% go away. They/ we are here to stay. The voice was attempting to elevate aboriginal advocacy beyond a level playing field. ML has activist roots and her belief is....' it's the least can be done'. most Australians acknowledge historical injustices including, genocidal massacres, dispossession and stolen generation, But most simply want unity and for Aborigines to also want that same unity. They uniformly think we are centuries down the track lets move on, lets walk together. We won't and never will until generational trauma is absolved. It seems a unattainable desire

Generational trauma inhibits unity. Generational trauma though isn't something embedded in DNA (apart from an inherited response to stress) or an externally produced trauma that exist with first hand experience as PTSD but is generated by belief systems that are influenced by intergenerational belief systems. It is handed down by what we experience and are taught by parents. The new generation will hate non indigenous with the venom of the old all the way back to original sin at colonisation. Some like Price and Mundine exit the cycle by personal choices and personal development. When they do they are derided as 'coconuts' by 'their' people as though entrenched hatred of non indigenous is the preferred and sensible choice and embracibg to assimilation is an abominable abandonment.

Native title restores dispossession as much as it can. Financial schemes provide reparations for stolen generation as much as it can too. The nation has said sorry. The nation has sanctioned a second national flag giving Aborigines self identity. We have welcome to country to show respect of culture. In all likelihood Australia day date will at some point be changed too to be more sensitive. It will never be enough because for many the hatred and mistrust is entrenched. Very sad but very true. Unity begets unity. Divisiveness begets divisiveness. I hate being called an invader to the land I love and In which I was born. It is a misnomer but one intentionally chosen to appease an angry heart influenced by generational trauma and hurt me for merely existing. I accept because I choose to be noble if I can be. Many won't.That's what happens. That is reality.

Each generation will hate a little less. Each generation will assimilate a little more. There is no panacea here. I'm the sort of person who likes to 'fix' things. This can only be fixed by gradual assimilation by choice and abandoning generational trauma. That is our mutual destiny

very wordy way to say "get over it"! why would people be expected to assimilate in a country theyve been in for 60k plus year? what you actually mean is "cede"

 

[Angry Red Bull]

very wordy way to say "get over it"! why would people be expected to assimilate in a country theyve been in for 60k plus year? what you actually mean is "cede"

So your position is indigenous were here first and for a long time and have never ceded sovereignty.? Sovereignty can be gained by three means:

• Conquest
• Cessation
• Effective occupation

Whether colonisation resulted from conquest or effective occupation is really academic. The reality is Australia exists and the 96% aren't leaving nor accepting sovereignty of indigenous people as separate nations. Native title recognizes property rights which are separate from sovereignty.. if you are waiting for the 26M to leave it won't happen

That means we all live here together in a country called Australia. You can certainly say you don't want to assimilate ie become one culture where a minority is subsumed into the collective..Everyone has a right to resist that. To what effect? To remain an outlier? Once again, to what effect? Seems to me that ultimately whether you remain defiant to resist and be outlier ultimately through passage of time and normal interaction, integration occurs irrespective. For me, I'd much prefer singing the song ....."we are one" with more passion knowing that all indigenous people are standing beside me with like sentiment. But that's me. it's a free world and that means the right to abide all lawful beliefs within it including defiant resistance. Just seems wasted energy and purpose to me.

So mate don't assimilate. But when you decide to you are welcome to visit and we'll have a BBQ and a beer.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

very wordy way to say "get over it"! why would people be expected to assimilate in a country theyve been in for 60k plus year? what you actually mean is "cede"

People's memories don't go back 60K years.
Generational trauma doesn't last 60K years.
If you have family i would very much hope they've been spared the pain you've lived through, and when they have children, i'd hope that they can instil the kind of self worth and pride that they deserve.

 

[evolved2]

So there you have it. When we get right down to it this whole thread has been largely seen as a yet another victory lap by those who voted NO or even worse - those who possibly voted NO and then pretended they voted YES in an attempt to even get people to even read their tripe.

There's no reason to pretend. I'd tell you if I voted no.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

There's no reason to pretend. I'd tell you if I voted no.

you must have been very disappointed in yourself for weakening enough to vote yes.

 

[evolved2]

you must have been very disappointed in yourself for weakening enough to vote yes.

You talk a big game.

I'll throw in another $100 if you do it first with evidence posted on this thread. I'll give you 24 hours.

 

[Reg Grundy35]

You talk a big game.

I'll throw in another $100 if you do it first with evidence posted on this thread. I'll give you 24 hours.

Who do you think you are? only you could try to turn a debate about FNP into a pissing contest.