Richmond and Geelong really need to hit rock bottom

[bogan_blue]

Like Carlton and the Bulldogs now, and like St.Kilda, Fremantle and Collingwood previously, a stint right down on the bottom of the ladder really puts the sting into a club, and gives it the balls to make it do the hard decisions. Someone told me that Geelong are scared of total success and total failure and it could be right. I think they (the club, coach prez etc) are comfortable where they are at the moment, I mean where is the pressure on Mark Thompson, Cook etc ? They need a broom in that joint pronto.
As for Richmond well, I will tell u know. Carlton (my club) are down in the crap hole, but we will seriously become a flag threat sooner than the Tigers, because we know where exactly we are and have the right people in place to get the tools to fix our limitations. Richmond despite having Greg Miller appear to still be in ga ga land. I mean going for Nathan Brown is all well and good, but appearing to offer 1 pick and Joel Bowden for Brown (from what I suspect is the offer) is simply madness. A top 10 pick is bascially good now, and yet every year the Tigers seem to do away with their good draft choices to get the quick fix.
They have a great captain in Campbell but other then Coughlan who is already a champ but is only young, have a great leadership dearth. A stint on the bottom would perhaps finally get it into their heads that Richmond are very mediocre who might overachieve once every 5 years and make the finals, but realistically are as further away as Carlton or even the Dogs as a chance to win the flag.
I do subscribe to the theory that u have to take a couple steps backwards to go fowards and in the long term Carlton are going to be the better for their stint down the bottom, and I think Geelong and Richmond (perhaps the Kangaroos too) would benefit from being down the ladder, aside from the obvious benefits in terms of concessional draft choices.

 

[RoosterWedgie]

In today's financial climate with clubs like Geelong they can't afford to take a step backwards before going forwards, it could be the death knell of them.

 

[Munga]

Originally posted by RoosterWedgie
In today's financial climate with clubs like Geelong they can't afford to take a step backwards before going forwards, it could be the death knell of them.

The saints got through it. The Bulldogs are getting through it, they may not have the numbers or the dollars, but they are getting through it. The Blues will get through it, but there will always be a dark dark shadow over the club. The Tiges, who knows where they're going? The Cats, have a good list, they do some good recruiting, do they have the coach? Who knows? Demons, they sure are, plenty of them.

 

[deliberate!!]

Originally posted by bogan_blue
A stint on the bottom would perhaps finally get it into their heads that Richmond are very mediocre who might overachieve once every 5 years and make the finals, but realistically are as further away as Carlton or even the Dogs as a chance to win the flag.

You don't think 23 years without success isn't rock bottom already!!

One thing is for certain.......
With Carlton's money probs......
U may not be around to be rock bottom in 5 years!!.....

(Pay me under the table and I'll remove this post....lol)

 

[Panzer_Blinky]

Can't really argue your points regarding Geelong, however I don't particularly agree on the solution. Not particularly successful, while avoiding the humiliation of cellar-dwelling makes the GFC a very frustrating club to follow. From what we've seen so far, however, it looks like the Cats are getting a bit more pro-active. A couple of assistant coaches have been shown the door, and the club seems to be shopping around for KP players, something that has hindered our finals paths for a number of years now (2000 notwithstanding).

Clubs shouldn't have to spend time down the bottom, though, to improve. I think you'll find 99.9% of Cats supporters thought the 2003 was a ****-poor effort, even though they avoided the bottom four. It's been enough for the club to be forced to act, and there's not much they're doing now that they could have done differently had we finished on the bottom, so ladder position is pretty much irrelevant if you've sucked arse for the season. Also, Carlton may recover, but why they've had to spend time at the bottom seems like an odd question. This is a time that had never won a wooden spoon until last year, so obviously they haven't spent too much time down the ladder, which further points to the fact that you can remain relatively competitive and still find ways to improve and enhance the club's chances of success.

 

[Portia]

Priority picks going to truly **** clubs are what is ****ing clubs like Richmond and Geelong up. At the top end of the ladder there's not much difference between picks 16 and 18, but there's a definite jump between 4 and 6.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by Porthos
Priority picks going to truly **** clubs are what is ****ing clubs like Richmond and Geelong up. At the top end of the ladder there's not much difference between picks 16 and 18, but there's a definite jump between 4 and 6.

Spoken like a man who has come to the realisation that his club ultimately got nothing out of the season and now has to watch lowly teams pick the bones out of the draft. Not fair sometimes Porthos.

Having said that a minor premier side is still laden with a lot of trade currency. Hopefully Port won't be allowing the Pies to get away with a Woewodin type steal with Nick Stevens.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
Spoken like a man who has come to the realisation that his club ultimately got nothing out of the season and now has to watch lowly teams pick the bones out of the draft. Not fair sometimes Porthos.

I've been saying this for some time now. The only reason there's a perception that one needs to hit rock bottom is because the truly bottom sides get a super injection of talent primarily at the expense of the sides that are bad but not pathetic.

If you remove the priority picks, then every bottom eight side is still only getting one pick. If this happens, then the Geelongs and Richmonds move up up the order, and maybe the truly pathetic sides will have less motivation to be on the very bottom of the ladder.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I can only speak for the Blues here. I don't believe we have any such motivation to stay on the bottom. It might develop in time but right now, it does not sit well with us. Some sides genuinely suck and can't get back up the ladder for a while.

 

[deliberate!!]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
I can only speak for the Blues here. I don't believe we have any such motivation to stay on the bottom. It might develop in time but right now, it does not sit well with us. Some sides genuinely suck and can't get back up the ladder for a while.

Yeh...I understand what u mean.....but no team HAS the motivation to stay at the bottom......it happens....

And whether it sits well with u is another thing.....the uneasy feeling u get from being on the bottom won't ensure u get up off it...

Teams can turn around quickly....but i think u must always judge ur team by how u feel about them and by the way they REALLY are.....and that's not always the same....

And opinions are like a##holes.....u know the rest of that quote.......so while u think
Carlton r on the way up........I don't think u will have in the next 5 years enuff decent players to beat anyone.....

My team Richmond.....
Could be rubbish again next year or with some more decent players we could be a better than average team....who knows how teams gell....

We have clowns like Richo & Bowden...
U have Whitnall & Kouta...
All 4 players could dominate games...
And don't with any regularity...
My 2 cents worth....
Cheers

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

What I mean is that I can't imagine us deliberately staying down the bottom to get extra draft picks. We are on the bottom because we aren't very good, not because we choose to be there. The last couple months of our season might suggest we were tanking games but I feel certain it has more to do with the number of players who know they are G-O-N-E very soon. They weren't motivated to play but I don't think they were motivated to lose necessarily.

 

[deliberate!!]

Old Dark......
I would never believe Carlton would ever 'tank' games.....
They are too proud a club to do that...
Cheers

 

[tigerdan]

Well I am a Richmond supporter and here's my spin on it. Richmond are reaping the rewards of numerous 9th place finishes. That lead to two things. One, it made the club think we were 'nearly there' and two, it gave us mediocre draft picks to play with.

So while Richmond should have continually drafted the top juniors, they instead traded away picks for players, in the expectation that a red hot go at the premiership was just around the corner (Johnson, etc). Ottens is an exception, but Pettifer & Fiora have not performed as well as their picks would suggest (especially Pettifer!!!).

I'm particularly peeved that Richmond went pretty much through 3 years of drafts trying to get crumbing forwards. So now we have numerous players like Krakoeur and no-one ready to replace Richardson or Gaspar.

I don't think Nathan Brown is the answer to Richmond's problems. Sure he is a very handy player and can kick bags of goals (Richo has only ever kicked 8 once!), but that is a short term fix. Given that trading away a first round pick seems mandatory to get Brown, I think we are going to make all the old mistakes all over again.

Richmond needs to go down the path that St Kilda, Freo and Geelong did and be prepared to spend 3 years rebuilding. Some might say Geelong aren't any good, but at least they have a young list and at least they have tried to rebuild. Richmond have been doing band-aid fixes since about 1995.

Regarding Carlton, I think they are in deeper water than Richmond because the draft penalties are going to bite deep and all the experienced players are going to retire soon. So Carlton will have a young list of late draft picks coming through their system. Richmond at least have more bargaining power when it comes to draft time.

Hard decisions need to be made at Tigerland but I honestly don't think they will be. At least three more years of mediocrity coming for my club I am afraid.

 

[crudbucket]

Originally posted by RoosterWedgie
In today's financial climate with clubs like Geelong they can't afford to take a step backwards before going forwards, it could be the death knell of them.

That's actually a pretty valid comment in Geelong's case. Clubs like Collingwood could afford to hit bottom and regroup, but I think it would be a bit of a 2 edged sword for the Cats, really dangerous territory to enter ....

 

[IceTemple]

Originally posted by tigerdan
Richmond are reaping the rewards of numerous 9th place finishes. That lead to two things. One, it made the club think we were 'nearly there' and two, it gave us mediocre draft picks to play with.

I agree with your first point but not so sure about second point.

Essendon rarely finish outside the 8 but still manage their list supremely. They trade ok players and pick up some great young guys in the draft. Under Sheeds they have done this in the same time frame that Rich have been mediocre. They rarely, if at all, draft experienced talent but instead develop their own (and some for other teams like Port).

Maybe we are just lucky or maybe Sheeds is better than what people give him credit for?

IMO Richmonds main problem has been getting the right coach & then ALLOWING that coach time & freedom to move. I get the impression (right or wrong?) that Spud is "handled" at Tigerland.

 

[tigerdan]

I knew I should have written more in my last post!

If your team consistently finishes in the finals, you are set because you can say 'our 8th best player, well he's played in a premiership, played in x finals, we want something good for him' ala Hardwick, K Johnson, Bell, etc. So teams like Essendon and North and Adelaide (etc) can recycle their list by trading away players for picks.

Richmond got shafted both ends because 9th never gives a champion junior and 9th never gives the team finals experience.

Mind you finishing 9th is not the only cause of Richmond's ills, but hasn't helped.

 

[Rob]

Originally posted by Munga
The saints got through it. The Bulldogs are getting through it, they may not have the numbers or the dollars, but they are getting through it.

Only because of AFL handouts, and they are entirely discretionary. Whats the guarantee that in 3 or 4 years those handouts are going to be available to clubs that need it?

 

[Unwritten_Law]

Someone posted a stat on here a few weeks ago that relates to this. It was something like, Geelong are the only team (one or two of the interstate teams might be excluded) to not finish in the bottom four since 1986. Does wonder for the draft picks, every year we get pick 7 and 8 or worse and end up with a player who has defficiencies in one area, we never get a fully rounded player ala Pavlich, Haselby etc. Probably the main reason we don't have ourselves any quality KP forwards.

You look at our list and our best players (Scarlett, Ablett, King) are father son or compensation selections, others are locals we have taken a punt on (Ling, Moloney) and smokeys that have come off (Enright, Rooke via the rookie list).

The spine for this year emphasises the problem.

Scarlett (Father-Son)
Harley (Port reject)
Ling (Drafted as an overweight forward)
Graham (Late draft pick)
Kingsley/Mooney (Rejects from North)

Look back a few weeks to see how much the system sucks. We beat Melbourne and that is the difference between draft picks 3 and 5 and draft pick 7. Melbourne will get a quality KP player, or two, and we will need to gamble on a "Molan" or take yet another midfielder.

 

[bogan_blue]

These days, unless u go through the pre-season draft, unless u finish bottom four, u have to give up something to get something. Geelong have a depth of quality young midfielders, perhaps 1 or 2 too many, and apparently Bartel who has talent wants out, so perhaps the Cats can swing a deal with Carlton for say Mckernan who also wants out (although unlikely considering Mckernan's age and season) or another tall surplus to Carlton's list. But Geelong's culture the fans won't turn away from a bad season, I heard on MMM that they applauded the team after the loss to the Bulldogs, coming back from a 12 goal loss to a 5 goal loss in the final quarter, means that they will probably at least stick with their mob, unlike Richmond whom will probably lose more members again next year.

 

[Maguire#31]

Originally posted by Rob
Only because of AFL handouts, and they are entirely discretionary. Whats the guarantee that in 3 or 4 years those handouts are going to be available to clubs that need it?

Think you'll find StKilda didnt take oe of those CHAMP... get ur facts straight.

 

[pugsville]

tanking matches

Hey, remeber Carlton is still the only club to have 3 players suspended (for years adn years) for throwing a match for money. Carlton are convicted Match-throwers.

 

[CJH]

Originally posted by bogan_blue


...

But Geelong's culture the fans won't turn away from a bad season, I heard on MMM that they applauded the team after the loss to the Bulldogs, coming back from a 12 goal loss to a 5 goal loss in the final quarter, means that they will probably at least stick with their mob, unlike Richmond whom will probably lose more members again next year.

This is one of the cruellest ironies in Football. As a club, we have an extremely low tolerance of failure. So much so that I feel that it has stifled the club in recent years, leading us to being one of the poorest performing in the past 2 decades.

Most times, we are so fierce in demanding success that adminstrators are almost forced to act, usually with the sacking of the coach. That Spud still has a job is nothing short of miraculous - Clinton Casey does appear determined to break the cycle of shooting the coach and hoping for a short term fix.

If we did follow the lead of the likes of Geelong, St. Kilda or Fremantle and follow a youth led rebuilding program, I would expect the ferals to back off and give the club a bit of space to implement this program.

This would have it's limits though. Looking at Bomber Thompson, if he put in place the same program at Richmond he would be gone by now. 4 years with little apparent progress would certainly be a death knell.

What scares me is the noises the club is making about again tinkering around the edges in developing the list rather than trading for early round draft picks. We would much rather see 6 picks in the top 30 rather than picking up recycled hacks in the draft.

 

[BigCat1]

Originally posted by bogan_blue
apparently Bartel who has talent wants out, so perhaps the Cats can swing a deal with Carlton for say Mckernan who also wants out or another tall surplus to Carlton's list.

Nice try bogan.

 

[Cateye Gillespi]

Originally posted by bogan_blue
Someone told me that Geelong are scared of total success and total failure and it could be right. I think they (the club, coach prez etc) are comfortable where they are at the moment, I mean where is the pressure on Mark Thompson, Cook etc ? They need a broom in that joint pronto.

The pressure isn't there because it's not needed. You're looking at the youngest list in the competition. There are only 5 players with 100 games or more under their belt and the cleanout process that's happenned since 1999 is probably the most drastic of any club in recent history. Geelong is a side with very little experience, but despite this have beaten the minor premiers this year, and won seven in a row in 2001. There's some talent there minus a genuine tall forward.
And at least they have a game plan that doesn't hinge on the prospect of Brendon Fevola becoming the next Wayne Carey, because if there's two things I know about footy:

1. Young sides take longer than three years to develop.
2. Brendon Fevola will never be Wayne Carey

add 3. Carlton won't win a premiership under Pagan.

 

[bogan_blue]

Um actually Fevola isn't a CHF like Carey, He plays at FF. No one has said he'll be the next Dunstall or Lockett.
I don't think young sides take more than 3 years. that is just an gutless excuse for failure. Collingwood are not much older relatively speaking then Geelong, and are in the grand final, and I think St.Kilda is just as young, yet nearly made the eight. Difference is, Geelong just don't have enough future champions on their list, or senior stars. Riccardi is nearly finished, Hen Graham is just an average player these days, players like David Johnson, Playfair etc haven't got the skill, talent or flair of an Xavier Clarke or an Brendan Goddard. (granted Carlton don't either but that's an different issue)
Until Geelong admit they are stuck in a repetitive cycle, I think they will not make the finals again in the near future (certainly next year anyway) and whilst Carlton will probably be near the bottom again, at least we can get early picks next year and take stock of our dilemma.