Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[phantom13]

Ok, so name your KPIs by which we should judge him?

In any area of business or management KPIs are a double edged sword. They’re mostly more damaging than useful because they attempt to align long term goals (the actual good of the organisation) with short term metrics (which we hope are leading indicators of future success). This can lead to sales sandbagging or short-sighted cost cutting or selling productive assets for a sugar hit of cash or underspending on training and innovation - amongst many many other pathologies.

Sometimes you have to go down to go up. The best leaders realise this and can take short term pain for long term gain - when their incentives are set up for that.

Again, I don’t know if RTB is the right guy, but at least he and the pres and the list managers seem to be on the same page with the necessity for temporary pain.

So to reiterate my question - what are the KPIs you’d set up to align short term on field performance with the long term good of the club?

Mate, I’m not a high performance coach or manager at a sports club so why on earth would I set his KPIs?

Furthermore, opposed to those who suggest you should rock down to training and have a chat with Ross about what’s wrong in fairly confident the club and the coach couldn’t give a rats ass what I think progress looks like.

You’re totally missing the point here. This isn’t about what I think success looks like in this rebuild it’s about what’s acceptable to the club and I would hope that they have some internal goals and measures for progress. The main point is that THAT in itself, the idea that a bloke collecting a very healthy paycheck to do his job has some accountability is met with pearl clutching is absolutely ****ing absurd.

To directly answer your question I have no idea what they would be but to ask you a direct question are you seriously suggesting there shouldn’t be ANY accountability or goals or targets or KPIs for his 4 year stint?

How do you know he’s doing his job or on the right track without them?

I think, somehow, I’ve become this totem for the anti Ross crew, I’m actually not anti Ross, I’m far from convinced he has modernized his gamestyle and I don’t like the dictatorship he’s created but I’m really clear he was the best available coach and I hope he has a plan.

Asking questions and critiquing some of what he’s doing isn’t “hating”.

 

[stfan]

Probably only Marshall looks set for the AA long list. Hill at a stretch but those outside runners often get left out for gun mids.DSo many players have been injured and out of form.


Crouch- best mid last year-injured and straight out
Steele second best mid- great early- injured and been okay
Sinclair- off no preseason had a big drop off.
Marshall gun last year- probably equal this year
Wood best wingman last year and close top AA quality- injured and come back 20% off
Nas- best kid we've had in 20 years last year- 10% off this year
Butler- best pressure forward last year- injured missing
Snags- top goal kicker last year. Missed 3 games through suspension not getting supply
Hill- probably the only player to have improved on last year
Battle- pretty much identical to 2023
Howard- worse
Wilkie- struggling to replicate his AA year under more pressure

Of the kids Owens, Phillipou, Caminiti, Sharman etc all gone backwards under more pressure.

Lost Gresham our third highest score assist player who could go on ball or play small forward and replaced him with Bonner another rebound small defender.

Also lost Webster for a long time and Membrey and Ross are both struggling to keep up with the pace. King hasn't managed to string any continuity together for 2 years.

Now, don't try using actual logic.......

 

[BrutThough]

The coach isn't the problem

Lack of access to talent is the problem.

Focusing on the coach is just a convenient distraction for the mind with a short concentration span.

Get in touch with Bassett and implore him to raise the pressure on the AFL to change the accademy rules.

It's an easy out to just blame talent. This same talent had us in finals last year but now, the vast majority of them have gone backwards as players and aren't showing the same ability as they showed last year.

That's a coaching issue.

 

[The Punter]

The draft access issue is one that IMO should be rectified, and Bassett should be supported in his work in this area.

But what if that pressure comes to nothing?

The people at the club in the football department (and that is everyone, especially the players) need to look at each other and say "it's our job to fix this".

Average players can become good players can become great players - it happens all the time (just usually somewhere else).

 

[ULTIMATE_WARRIOR]

Who here, that saw anything of the preseason we had... could see this coming?

I went and watched training on Australia Day and I walked away thrilled with what I saw.

How we played against Essendon in that first practice hit out was exactly what I’d witnessed during training.

But everything since then has gone to shit.

Injuries at the worst times preventing anyone having a good run at it. Suspensions to key members of our side. All that instability has led to no consistency, added by the fact we have a lot of youth who are asked to play a taxing and complicated game style.

 

[gubby88]

I'll support Ross in his 4 years, but I don't and won't support Ross surrounding himself with his men and not StKilda's future going forward. Dalrymple is a good start and I think he's earmarked as list boss going fwd, but Mission as Footy Dept boss is baffling, our medical dept was supposed to be better and we've had nothing but continual long-term injuries since.

Toce seems to be getting huge wraps atm, shame nothing was said about him whilst he was here, but it stumps me how we could not work out how to keep him and add Dalrymple. never hear it said you can have too many competent staff members.

We knew our list lacked mids, quality mids. Windy is a good addition to a midfield but he's never going to be the main man, for that, we need top picks. Pou still has time and I'm not writing him off, but he needs another 3 years, and any kid we recruit end of the year will need time unless they are the next Bont or Cripps.

Ross is as decent a choice as any to take the heat whilst we get those players in, and it's going to take 2 or 3 years to do that, what's gained by knifing him. If shit still stinks next year, find a successor and do a transition with a better-positioned list

we have the smallest injury list in the league atm. so im unsure what you meanb there. Dave Misson runs his own company and has done for a very long time and has been in footy long enough to be in that role. he is more than just a medic

 

[gubby88]

I'll support Ross in his 4 years, but I don't and won't support Ross surrounding himself with his men and not StKilda's future going forward. Dalrymple is a good start and I think he's earmarked as list boss going fwd, but Mission as Footy Dept boss is baffling, our medical dept was supposed to be better and we've had nothing but continual long-term injuries since.

Toce seems to be getting huge wraps atm, shame nothing was said about him whilst he was here, but it stumps me how we could not work out how to keep him and add Dalrymple. never hear it said you can have too many competent staff members.

We knew our list lacked mids, quality mids. Windy is a good addition to a midfield but he's never going to be the main man, for that, we need top picks. Pou still has time and I'm not writing him off, but he needs another 3 years, and any kid we recruit end of the year will need time unless they are the next Bont or Cripps.

Ross is as decent a choice as any to take the heat whilst we get those players in, and it's going to take 2 or 3 years to do that, what's gained by knifing him. If shit still stinks next year, find a successor and do a transition with a better-positioned list

From what i hear about Toce, he wanted the role that Dalrymple was head hunted for and wasnt happy when told he wasnt as experienced (which hes not) and handed in his resignation. Saints were more than happy to keep him in the role he was in. What was said in the media is just media talk because they didnt want to hinder Toce getting a new appointment

take this with a grain of salt though, its only what ive been told

 

[SG34]

We won the stoppage clearances.

I also noticed two nice Seb kicks.

I never notice Steele for some reason, although I realise his stats blow Seb's off the park. (Both spent the same time of ground)

 

[Cairnsman]

It's an easy out to just blame talent. This same talent had us in finals last year but now, the vast majority of them have gone backwards as players and aren't showing the same ability as they showed last year.

That's a coaching issue.

You really think this list can compete deep into September?

Outside of the Saints rusted on types, I don’t hear anyone saying we are just a good coach away from a flag

 

[Sully111]

You really think this list can compete deep into September?

Outside of the Saints rusted on types, I don’t hear anyone saying we are just a good coach away from a flag

Did you actually read what he wrote?

I doubt it. Because you completely missed his point.

I don't see anyone saying our list will win a flag.

It can be an issue with both coaching and the list. Having list deficiencies doesn't account for our current players/team going backwards. You can say the coaches need to be held accountable without saying we have a premiership list.

 

[BrutThough]

You really think this list can compete deep into September?

Outside of the Saints rusted on types, I don’t hear anyone saying we are just a good coach away from a flag

No one said. Everyone knows our list has deficiencies and we need to keep adding talent to it.

But I'm not concerned about what we dont have right now. That's an easy out for everyone at the club and takes any responsibility away from them. I'm concerned about the players we do have not performing to the standard and ability we know they are capable of. And a large part of that falls on the coaches and the game plan.

 

[phantom13]

No one said. Everyone knows our list has deficiencies and we need to keep adding talent to it.

But I'm not concerned about what we dont have right now. That's an easy out for everyone at the club and takes any responsibility away from them. I'm concerned about the players we do have not performing to the standard and ability we know they are capable of. And a large part of that falls on the coaches and the game plan.

To me the current performance is either the gameplan (which is the coach) or the players not following the gameplan (which is also the coach).

Thats not the only thing, we have some deficiencies in the list and some ****ing ordinary players (again, every team has that).

The list isnt great but its also not complete ****ing trash. NWM, Windy, Hill, Sinclair, Battle, Steele, Wilkie, Higgins, Wood, Marshall, King. All perfectly capable footballers not being used well at all.

Weve got issues everywhere, including in the coaches box right now.

 

[BrutThough]

To me the current performance is either the gameplan (which is the coach) or the players not following the gameplan (which is also the coach).

Thats not the only thing, we have some deficiencies in the list and some ****ing ordinary players (again, every team has that).

The list isnt great but its also not complete ****ing trash. NWM, Windy, Hill, Sinclair, Battle, Steele, Wilkie, Higgins, Wood, Marshall, King. All perfectly capable footballers not being used well at all.

Weve got issues everywhere, including in the coaches box right now.

100% this. Thats more than enough good players for us to be performing better and playing a more attractive game style than the tripe we've put up this year.

 

[SG34]

What about when players can’t hold a mark, or shoot straight?

Who is to blame’s for that one.

 

[phantom13]

What about when players can’t hold a mark, or shoot straight?

Who is to blame’s for that one.

AGAIN...

The players arent blameless but they are also not all complete spuds. Even the best make some mistakes.

I put alot of the current handballing bullshit we see down to coaching as its very, very evident that handball first is a team directive.

Some of the kicking skill execution is also coaching as we play an extremely taxxing defensive system and because of the bullshit handballing stuff noted in point 1 we are often kicking under pressure. Having said that, some blokes are just shit kicks and should kick within their capabilities.

Its not just one thing or the other, our current woes are

• Odd list profile with some holes
• Alot of players with lower skill levels
• Years of poor drafting choices
• Poor gameplan that doesnt use the strengths of the list
• Extremely taxxing gameplan that seems to be breaking some players confidence and natural ability
• 150 years of mediocrity and a shitty stadium deal

Now it looks like were just tanking good and proper now so hopefully we will have one maybe two good bites at a draft to help the first 3 items and hopefully Ross is doing defence and create overlap first to build an attacking gameplan off that (ala Roos at the Dees).

Can we all just agree its not JUST Ross and its not JUST shit players cause honestly this is getting ****ing tiresome.

 

[bergholt]

Mate, I’m not a high performance coach or manager at a sports club so why on earth would I set his KPIs?

Same, so to me that means it's pretty hard for us to judge from the outside whether he's going well or not in the short term. Maybe they're measuring the players' adherence to gameplan and attitude to their football and physical base fitness - or whatever - and finding that they're trending in a good direction. But if they don't turn into immediate results on field then we'll have no way to know that things are improving.

To directly answer your question I have no idea what they would be but to ask you a direct question are you seriously suggesting there shouldn’t be ANY accountability or goals or targets or KPIs for his 4 year stint?

I don't think I suggested that? What I was saying was that the goals are long term rather than short term. Us losing a bunch of games this year (or probably even next) doesn't necessarily mean anything about whether we're setting up a good foundation for future success.

The only way to measure in the short term is by the vibe, the feel inside the club. Doesn't mean whether everyone's happy, but it means whether it seems like a professional environment is being created.

But since we can't see anything about that from the outside, it feels like a fool's errand to try to judge too much. For my own mental health I think it's best to sit back and try to enjoy the little things here and there.

 

[phantom13]

Same, so to me that means it's pretty hard for us to judge from the outside whether he's going well or not in the short term. Maybe they're measuring the players' adherence to gameplan and attitude to their football and physical base fitness - or whatever - and finding that they're trending in a good direction. But if they don't turn into immediate results on field then we'll have no way to know that things are improving.



I don't think I suggested that? What I was saying was that the goals are long term rather than short term. Us losing a bunch of games this year (or probably even next) doesn't necessarily mean anything about whether we're setting up a good foundation for future success.

The only way to measure in the short term is by the vibe, the feel inside the club. Doesn't mean whether everyone's happy, but it means whether it seems like a professional environment is being created.

But since we can't see anything about that from the outside, it feels like a fool's errand to try to judge too much. For my own mental health I think it's best to sit back and try to enjoy the little things here and there.

Maybe they are so it seems weird to critique my comment that he needs some accountability...

 

[Mangus]

Our list is mid tier at best with a favorable fixture like last year and a getting the jump on the season early by being super fit and applying a new game plan opposition hadn't worked out allowed us to over achieve probably a bit of extra energy with having a new coaching dept and the breakout of a few young kids. All up an outstanding result in Year 1 particularly given the way we rallied to avert the form slump at the end of the year.

This year with a tough draw particularly the first half with even more kids introduced and a game plan that hasn't caught anyone by surprise we were competitive early but not good enough in some close games. Confidence and form has dropped through the floor and the coaching team have responsibility for that.

We clearly added pace and run in the off season and our game plan was tweaked to maximise that against the Pies it looked to have worked since then it has been progressively picked apart to the point we just don't have a consistent approach to how we want to play.

A few observations

The backline was the building block of our game last year, Wilkie and Sincs were playing All Australian level and the team defence was dour but effective. This year a more run and gun gameplan, Sincs move to more midfield, Webster out and Wilkie while still a good stopper has seen his intercept game has drop right off. - Return to the backline of last year probably means Bonner out, Sincs back and make this a strength again.

The forward line don't lead at the kicker not sure if this is by instruction or no faith in the kickers Max is always doubling back trying to get the kicker to kick over his defender which works about 10% of the time. If they led up even outside 50 it would open space behind but currently the F50 is dysfunctional. Missed having Higgins and Butler together hopefully they are back together next week.

Mids are just not talented enough missing the stability of Crouch but this is the glaring hole in our list Steele has probably peaked and is on the downward end of his output. Ross is B grade particularly at stoppages. Windy shows promise but is inconsistent, Jones is done papers stamped. Henry has ambitions to play mid but a fair way off it and Phillipou has frankly been terrible this year just not ready for the role. Marshall hacking it out of the ruck has papered over the complete ineffectiveness of our midfield this year.

The coaches have some work to do but the list managers have even more.

 

[Saintbloke]

A lot of players have gone backwards this season, all as one. They can’t have all simultaneously lost form as individuals at one time. So many experienced players not getting the ball, fumbling, dropping marks. The catalyst is the coach and that’s where the buck stops in pro sport.

 

[True Believer]

A lot of players have gone backwards this season, all as one. They can’t have all simultaneously lost form as individuals at one time. So many experienced players not getting the ball, fumbling, dropping marks. The catalyst is the coach and that’s where the buck stops in pro sport.

A lot of players have had very interrupted seasons. In some cases, next to no pre-season. Sincs is reported as playing with Plantar Fasciitis in both feet!

 

[SG34]

A lot of players have had very interrupted seasons. In some cases, next to no pre-season. Sincs is reported as playing with Plantar Fasciitis in both feet!

If Ross gets blame now for the unanticipated decline, he deserves a bouquet of roses for getting the team up to the place from which it has plummeted in the first place.

I don't agree with those suggesting, even obliquely hinting, that it's part coaching, part this and that, and vaguely assuming some 'shared guilt' or 'guilt by association' (because all aspects of the club are inherently interlocking) before suggesting we 'move on' because they are tired of the conversation.( tar brush in pocket) Either be specific or admit we don't know.

 

[phantom13]

If Ross gets blame now for the unanticipated decline, he deserves a bouquet of roses for getting the team up to the place from which it has plummeted in the first place.

I don't agree with those suggesting, even obliquely hinting, that it's part coaching, part this and that, and vaguely assuming some 'shared guilt' or 'guilt by association' (because all aspects of the club are inherently interlocking) before suggesting we 'move on' because they are tired of the conversation.( tar brush in pocket) Either be specific or admit we don't know.

I think plenty of people have been very specific about the coaching issues that we can see, you might not agree with them but they’ve been articulated, numerous times.

 

[The Punter]

A lot of players have had very interrupted seasons. In some cases, next to no pre-season. Sincs is reported as playing with Plantar Fasciitis in both feet!

What would be the reason he's playing then? Surely we can all agree at this stage playing injured players is unnecessary?

 

[phantom13]

What would be the reason he's playing then? Surely we can all agree at this stage playing injured players is unnecessary?

100%.

Rack em all that arent 100%. Steele with his knee springs to mind.

King probably needs some continuity and gametime but anyone who isnt 100% or isnt playing for touch and match fitness, surgery or rest thanks.

 

[BigPowerForward]

Aside from needing more quality midfielders, the biggest issue facing this club is our lack of on field leadership.
Until this is addressed, we will continue to have inconsistent performances. We will only be wallpapering over the cracks.
We need to have players that are prepared to be uncompromising in their goals and willing to drive the high standards required for a contending team. Who are the guys, that when things are not going our way, lift to another level, and say, "come on boys, follow us". I'm not seeing this ATM and it is disheartening!