Autopsy Round 11, 2024: Melbourne v St.Kilda

[Cairnsman]

Once we get the talent in, we can save money by not having a coach, right? Because it's just a talent issue, right?

For most of their history, the GWS have been the most talented team. Zero premierships.

On the other hand, Richmond won three flags with a long list of contributing GOPs. And admittedly some very, very good players.

Finally, with all the perversions of the draft built into the system, what happens if we cannot access the required talent? Does that mean we don't have to really try to win the premiership until we get lucky with talent?

The responsibility to succeed falls on those at the club right now.

You’re being silly

It’s the sum of all parts

Always has and always will be

Pretty much any of the books written by some of the great coaches of any elite sport will tell you that.

You won’t hear that though in a media landscape regulated by the AFL and especially by Fox because the commercialisation of the game leverages off the highly successful format of populism, which is clearly a winner in the age of Trumpism, and within populism you need 2 sides and a villain...enter the coach as the Vilian, he sells big.

The sum of all parts is what gets the silver.

Now all of that is not some blind endorsement of Lyon, far from it, I think he’s a good coach but like all, he has his faults.

So what is left, access to talent. Again most coaches in elite sporting codes know what their sports critical mass for talent is required to challenge, for most successful AFL, they will tell you it’s a depth of talent that bats around the 25 mark.

We are well short of that and as I keep saying, access to talent for a poor club like ours is almost an impossible challenge.

Write to the Pres and implore him to increase the pressure on the AFL to change the academy rules.

 

[The Punter]

We are well short and as I keep saying, access to talent for a poor club like ours is almost an impossible challenge.

So how do we win a premiership with limited access to talent?

I'm not holding my breath that the AFL will fix the structural inequalities in their system. In my view, we must commit (while Bassett et all keep pressuring the AFL) to finding a way to win under the current system.

That means making the players (and their innate talents) at the club better.

 

[CursingFijian]

Wednesday, 29 May 2024

The Trainee Receptionist
St Kilda Football Club
RSEA Park
Linton St, Moorabbin
Victoria 3189

Dear Trainee Receptionist,

I hope this letter finds you well amidst the turmoil that has become the 2024 season for the St Kilda Football Club. As a dedicated supporter, I feel it is my duty to express a few thoughts that have been weighing on my mind as the season progresses—or rather, stagnates.

Firstly, I must address the baffling situation with Lance Collard. Is it too much to ask that he be gifted at least one goal? Our generosity knows no bounds, except when it comes to Collard’s scoreboard tally.

Then there’s Max King

12

Max King

Age

24

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

1star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

0.6

3star

G

1.4

5star

, our supposed star forward, who apparently can’t lift his arms over his head. One wonders if he’s been taking inspiration from a T-Rex rather than a professional footballer. It’s becoming a bit of a sore point—both literally and figuratively.

As for Jack Sinclair

35

Jack Sinclair

Age

29

Ht

181cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.5

4star

K

8.1

3star

HB

8.4

5star

M

3.1

3star

T

3.2

5star

MG

235.0

4star

D

15.0

4star

K

10.0

4star

HB

5.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

3star

MG

376.0

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

4.2

2star

HB

7.8

5star

M

1.6

2star

T

2.0

4star

MG

138.2

3star

’s haircut, I can only assume his barber is a staunch supporter of our rivals, and thus set out to undermine team morale with every snip.

Hunter Clark

11

Hunter Clark

Age

25

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.9

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

, bless his heart, seems to be under some sort of ancient injury curse. I fail to understand what the point is of even having a Shaman on our list if not to use his mystical abilities to free him from this evil hex. Modern medicine clearly isn’t cutting it, and I would be happy to provide some kava, desiccated coconut and even a mystical chant to assist in the ceremony.

Matthew Allison, after one commendable game in the reserves, finds himself bypassed at the selection table. What’s a guy got to do to get a second glance around here? Sing the club song backwards?

In terms of potential improvements, I propose the following radical changes. Making Riley Bonner

36

Riley Bonner

Age

27

Ht

190cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.2

4star

K

12.1

4star

HB

5.2

4star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.4

3star

MG

279.8

4star

D

12.3

3star

K

10.3

4star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.5

3star

T

1.3

2star

MG

279.8

4star

D

21.4

5star

K

14.0

5star

HB

7.4

5star

M

5.0

5star

T

2.0

4star

captain should instil a fresh sense of direction—after all, what could possibly go wrong? Sometimes a shake-up at the leadership level is exactly what’s needed to inspire the team and change our fortunes.

Shifting Anthony Caminiti into defence might be just the shake-up our backline needs. His agility and tactical mindset could add a new dimension to our defensive strategies, possibly patching up the leaks that have been our downfall this season. And as for Isaac Keeler, why not throw him into the ruck? His height and athleticism could provide us with the competitive edge we’ve been sorely lacking in the middle of the ground.

In addition to on-field changes, a little attention to off-field details could go a long way. Budget provision for a hair stylist at the Danny Frawley Centre might seem trivial, but the confidence boost from a good haircut is not to be underestimated. Plus, it would save us from any more follicular fiascos that detract from our professional image.

Lastly, we need to inject some grit into our lineup. I suggest selecting more hardened players and, as a logical next step, dropping all players who have yet to be suspended. It’s time to reward those who play with a bit of fire in their belly and show they’re willing to push the limits for the team. We need a squad that reflects the tough, relentless spirit of our supporters.

In conclusion, I want answers.

Yours sincerely,

Cursing Fijian

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Jack Peris didn't kick a goal either, but he did get 6 contested possessions in his only game.
Right now its hard to see why we let him go.

 

[Cairnsman]

Who here, that saw anything of the preseason we had... could see this coming?

Myself and pretty much every neutral in the comp predicted we would be a slider.

Why?

It was easy, our age and experience profile was way behind that required to be a top 4 contender. And Ross was open about his plan to introduce even more youth.

It's amazing that fans get swept up by the artificial hype clubs create in the pre season, surely it's understood what that's all about.

 

[Cairnsman]

Jack Peris didn't kick a goal either, but he did get 6 contested possessions in his only game.
Right now its hard to see why we let him go.

Whaaaaat!

You're joking right, he's lucky he had the influential mother he does otherwise he wouldn't have got a game at all.

 

[Cairnsman]

The draft access issue is one that IMO should be rectified, and Bassett should be supported in his work in this area.

But what if that pressure comes to nothing?

The people at the club in the football department (and that is everyone, especially the players) need to look at each other and say "it's our job to fix this".

Average players can become good players can become great players - it happens all the time (just usually somewhere else).

Send him an email, urge him to ramp up the pressure, if he knows the supporter base is behind him on this then he'll have to go harder at the AFL

 

[Cairnsman]

The game plan may need some tweaks but for mine its more execution of the game plan than the game plan itself being the number 1 issue.

That does not excuse the coaches though, its their job to get us to execute to our maximum ability. We're not doing that, not even close.

Bang on!

Execution!

How do you execute.

With talent and skills

All this ignorant nonsense the uninformed go on with about game plan is laughable.

Most coaches and AFL players who have had success will tell you that with the exception of the clubs at the bottom of a rebuild, pretty much most game plans are very similar and with it is only the coaches with top 4 quality teams who are able to maybe innovate or introduce some risky set plays as result of the talent available to execute. Most recent to discuss this in fascinating depth was Chris Scott and Danger after the 2022. Pretty much said that the addition of Cameron allowed them to teak their game plan in the preseaon leading up to the 2022 season. Only highly talented and experienced lists can adapt to those types of tweaks so quickly.

We have a bottom four list...why is that so hard foe some to accept

 

[gringo2011]

What is interesting this year - aside from coach v list v both arguments is we’ve clearly shown in patches what we can do
Against Bombers - 1st half had them toasted …poor kicking
Against GWS last half - ran all over them ..
Pies Rd 3 - no stodgy static footy …dangerous going forward all night
I don’t believe the game plan changes weekly..that said it’s on players to execute and in coaches to get it out of them
As mentioned before - Lions AND Pies have both gone backwards this year …last year for us a lot went right
I never thought we were a finals certainty and joked to a Bombers mate (who crying last year how lost they were ..) that you’re only 1 soft draw away from a rebound…
Here we are …
Freo last year ….basket case…couldn’t score …on verge finals this year
Anyway I’m for the long haul but am glad Bassett is pissin a few off over academies etc it needs to be said …I’d add a comment or two on umpires as well ..think they’ve been abysmal this year (no not cause for losses) but with 4 …it’s gone backwards

Part of the problem is that the game style doesn't allow for any momentum building. It's really about holding sides down and then going on burst counter attacks. You never get to build confidence and positive energy. Even if you win you feels more like you bagged the neighbour's chicken when he was in the shower.

Geelong and Collingwood both had excessively negative game plans that they turned around. Even Longmire was a devotee of Paul Roos and his self-flagellation group the order of the dull football fanciers.

 

[Cairnsman]

So how do we win a premiership with limited access to talent?

We won't, and no team ever will, never been done before.

I'd say Bassett and Lyon understand this hence them lobbying the AFL to get some equity in the system before it's too late and especially before Tasmania enters the comp.

And I note that the Sydney teams looking like getting COLA back.

We need to fight now.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Whaaaaat!

You're joking right, he's lucky he had the influential mother he does otherwise he wouldn't have got a game at all.

Fair comment , he only got 13 disposals ( 6 contested ) and 4 tackles in 61% TOG.

Meanwhile Collard got 1 contested posession and zero disposals in 30% TOG for his first game : Extrapolated 2 contested , 0 disposals ( a good trick ).
Luckily he went on 4 disposals with 40% TOG in his next two games.

Obviously the trainee receptionist is Collard's mum.

 

[Saintbloke]

Too many excuses for Lyon, if it was any other lesser known coach, our poor results would be the coach’s fault, but as it’s Bassat love-child Lyon, it’s the players fault. Gawd

 

[gringo2011]

So how do we win a premiership with limited access to talent?

I'm not holding my breath that the AFL will fix the structural inequalities in their system. In my view, we must commit (while Bassett et all keep pressuring the AFL) to finding a way to win under the current system.

That means making the players (and their innate talents) at the club better.

There is no lack of talent out there. I could build a list for Tasmania tomorrow that would start competitive and it would be 90% state league and recycled players but very selectively taken to fill positions. Stack the rest with draftees and they'd develop better than if they throw 25x 18 year olds in together.

You look at our list and see holes all over it. List management, drafting and development were neglected for 20 years, the last 3 have been better though.

 

[The Punter]

We have a bottom four list...why is that so hard foe some to accept

Because it leaves the responsibility for success on luck. Perhaps the most talented kid is a Tarryn Thomas type. Maybe the talent gets poleaxed by David MacKay then gets an unearned reputation for being soft. At some stage any amount of talent has to transform into performance.

If there was some way of absolutely knowing that every single player at the club was getting the absolute maximum out of themselves, then I think you'd have a point in terms of what it takes. But premiership teams are replete over the course of history with moderately talented types who just wanted it more than others.

Calling on the AFL to make the system fairer and expecting change is like expecting the umpires to get better. It'd be lovely if it happened, but we're being foolish if we're not working on the understanding that we need to win despite the way things are. That we are the masters of our own destiny, and we don't need to rely on anyone else to get us what we want.

None of that means we don't need to improve the list at the end of the year - like every club. But no player at St Kilda is the finished product or the best they could possibly be. It's why we spend our lives learning and improving.

 

[Cairnsman]

Fair comment , he only got 13 disposals ( 6 contested ) and 4 tackles in 61% TOG.

Meanwhile Collard got 1 contested posession and zero disposals in 30% TOG for his first game : Extrapolated 2 contested , 0 disposals ( a good trick ).
Luckily he went on 4 disposals with 40% TOG in his next two games.

Obviously the trainee receptionist is Collard's mum.

Oh man that's just too simplistic for me...
Keep it real and I'm back in the room

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We won't, and no team ever will, never been done before.

I'd say Bassett and Lyon understand this hence them lobbying the AFL to get some equity in the system before it's too late and especially before Tasmania enters the comp.

And I note that the Sydney teams looking like getting COLA back.

We need to fight now.

I'd give them COLA, but not on the basis that its a slush fund.
( ie 10% extra for the TPP , nearly all given to Buddy and Kurt while the rookies on the list struggle at their minimum payment ).
If for the sake of the argument COLA is 10% of the TPP, then they should need to meet the existing salary cap ,THEN each player gets 10% on top.

Now if we want to be fair about it, they should work out who has the cheapest cost of living, off the cuff, Adelaide based teams ,but possibly Geelong. Then each other city should get a COLA based on their location.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Oh man that's just too simplistic for me...
Keep it real and I'm back in the room

Peris was showing more at VFL level prior to getting selected to play than Collard was this year.
Collard was an extremely simplistic "Play the Yoof ".

There is some talk that Peris might get picked up in the mid-season draft.

 

[gringo2011]

Too many excuses for Lyon, if it was any other lesser known coach, our poor results would be the coach’s fault, but as it’s Bassat love-child Lyon, it’s the players fault. Gawd

I'm agnostic about Lyon. He's probably overachieved with what he had last year. I think they said it was the most under 21 year olds to play finals in 40 years or something. Finished above Sydney who look favourites for this year and above Geelong off a flag.

This year lots went wrong and we probably realistically need to drop down and load up when we aren't going to impact finals any way.

If next year starts like this one he will come under massive pressure. He's got to start bearing some fruit or the pressure with get too much and we'll sack him.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

There is no lack of talent out there. I could build a list for Tasmania tomorrow that would start competitive and it would be 90% state league and recycled players but very selectively taken to fill positions. Stack the rest with draftees and they'd develop better than if they throw 25x 18 year olds in together.

You look at our list and see holes all over it. List management, drafting and development were neglected for 20 years, the last 3 have been better though.

In the words of George Harrison.

But it's gonna take money
A whole lotta spendin' money
It's gonna take plenty of money
To do it right, child
It's gonna take time
Whole lot of precious time
It's gonna take patience and time, mmm
To do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
To do it right, child

Of course , we can always neglect drafting again, while trying to trade a short cut, then those of left alive can meet back here and say the same thing in 20 years.

 

[Cairnsman]

Because it leaves the responsibility for success on luck.

Oh come on keep it real, it's anything but, what it is is time, time to pull multiple levers, it just doesn't happen over night unless you are a franchise club and gifted an insane amount of draft concessions and given excluse accademy rules that direct a steady stream of talented kids into your club.

It's going to take much longer than 4 years, look at Chris Scott, it took him 11 years to win his first flag ( the 2011 flag was clearly Bombers), and he started with a once in a generation team at the end of their era which he could use to blood new player into, he started with a significant high performance resource and culture, and it still took took him 11 years.

Malthouse the same, took him over 10 years to build a flag list.

It take time, this current regime will need every bit of 10 years...

 

[phantom13]

Oh come on keep it real, it's anything but, what it is is time, time to pull multiple levers, it just doesn't happen over night unless you are a franchise club and gifted an insane amount of draft concessions and given excluse accademy rules that direct a steady stream of talented kids into your club.

It's going to take much longer than 4 years, look at Chris Scott, it took him 11 years to win his first flag ( the 2011 flag was clearly Bombers), and he started with a once in a generation team at the end of their era which he could use to blood new player into, he started with a significant high performance resource and culture, and it still took took him 11 years.

Malthouse the same, took him over 10 years to build a flag list.

It take time, this current regime will need every bit of 10 years...

If it’s not a remodel (not rebuild) that we’re doing then the 10 year plan may as well be 20 with Tassie coming in to **** up the drafts. Are we just giving Ross carte Blanche for 20 years?

Even if Ross overachieved, this list that everyone reckons is total shit finished 6th last year.

So when it goes well, it’s all Ross, he’s a genius, when it goes poorly it’s all the players fault.

Surely you can see the issue with this.

The whole reason the “anti-Ross” crew are making the point that if it’s just a drop down for a year, maybe two then have a proper crack is because that’s exactly what continues to be spoken about. “It’s not a rebuild” said over and over and over which makes sense because again… we JUST finished 6th so we’re not THAT far off it.

If this is full rebuild, if we’re bottoming out and doing a north and turning the whole dogshit list over then we’re absolutely ****ed cause that’s not even the direction we appear to be taking.

 

[Cairnsman]

this list that everyone reckons is total shit finished 6th last year.

A couple of things, most people that have been around footy long enough understand the list isn't shit as you put it, they know that you need a critical mass of talent, number of games and physically condition players to challenge. This is a well understood concept deeply rooted in science and well backed up by statistics from every team ever fielded for a GF, with the exception of the rare outliers.

This is not a hard concept to understand I would have thought for the logically and rationally thinking person.

The whole reference to our ladder postion last year is just not deeply rooted in said logic and rationale.

Lyon was given the mandate to rebuild, the mistake made has been not to communicate it better from the get go. Lyon has always understood the list needed rebuilding and had given plenty of clues that has been his plan since his first press conference.

 

[phantom13]

A couple of things, most people that have been around footy long enough understand the list isn't shit as you put it, they know that you need a critical mass of talent, number of games and physically condition players to challenge. This is a well understood concept deeply rooted in science and well backed up by statistics from every team ever fielded for a GF, with the exception of the rare outliers.

This is not a hard concept to understand I would have thought for the logically and rationally thinking person.

The whole reference to our ladder postion last year is just not deeply rooted in said logic and rationale.

Lyon was given the mandate to rebuild, the mistake made has been not to communicate it better from the get go. Lyon has always understood the list needed rebuilding and had given plenty of clues that has been his plan since his first press conference.

Firstly, the patronizing tone isnt helping your argument.

Secondly the reference to ladder position doesnt need rationale, its a cold hard fact. Im not saying the list is the 6th best in the league, but it was good enough to finish 6th.

My whole point is that if it was good enough to do that then it isnt as dogshit as all the "Ross is the GOAT and its the players fault" crew is saying.

Our coach isnt coaching well, our list isnt fantastic and our players arent playing well.

All three of those things are absolutely the case right now but theyre all fixable without a complete bottom out and full rebuild (which as you quite rightly noted is a 10 year exercise).

Furthermore if we are doing a full rebuild (which you seem to be suggesting) with Tassie coming in then its not a 10 year exercise, its 15-20 with compromised drafts and player raids.

Im well aware the club isnt challenging for a flag this year and i never thought they were. If we had a better run with injuries and a gameplan to exploit our strengths we probably could have propped up around that 6-10 spot again and it would have been a sugar hit but if were going full rebuild, scrap the lot and start again, were absolutely ****ed.

 

[Cairnsman]

Firstly, the patronizing tone isnt helping your argument.

Secondly the reference to ladder position doesnt need rationale, its a cold hard fact. Im not saying the list is the 6th best in the league, but it was good enough to finish 6th.

My whole point is that if it was good enough to do that then it isnt as dogshit as all the "Ross is the GOAT and its the players fault" crew is saying.

Our coach isnt coaching well, our list isnt fantastic and our players arent playing well.

All three of those things are absolutely the case right now but theyre all fixable without a complete bottom out and full rebuild (which as you quite rightly noted is a 10 year exercise).

Furthermore if we are doing a full rebuild (which you seem to be suggesting) with Tassie coming in then its not a 10 year exercise, its 15-20 with compromised drafts and player raids.

Im well aware the club isnt challenging for a flag this year and i never thought they were. If we had a better run with injuries and a gameplan to exploit our strengths we probably could have propped up around that 6-10 spot again and it would have been a sugar hit but if were going full rebuild, scrap the lot and start again, were absolutely ****ed.

Dude enough already, patronising? Your tone is clearly agenda filled and biased barely disguising the fact it's sounds personal with you.

If you dont accept that we severely over achieved last season then there is no helping you, pretty much every neutral pundit in the game understood it and was why we were widely tipped to slide this year and that was well before R1. Your getting hysterical dude.

 

[stfan]

One cannot just look at last year's ladder position. You have to look at how other clubs are improving or declining.

Swans brought in Grundie and overall they now have an excellent list and age profile.


Essendon brought in a bunch of FAs and are a better team. I doubt flag worthy, but are better.


Hawks are better.


Lions are going bad, but overall there is more competition in the top half of the ladder.