Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[Brains Trust66]

Well what do you expect when we have to play at a crappy ground with no roof and with " local showers " happening in the second half . They did everything to stop our game and bring us down to their level .

 

[Saint Shags]

In his defence the game was cooked at that time.

That goal killed any chance. At the time he kicks that goal there is only 8 points the difference.

Yes his 3rd quarter was better. Especially when you compare it to the Captain. But the game was still on the line. It is a horrid look.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

In his defence the game was cooked at that time.

That’s some defence!
Can’t wait until all the old heads who don’t play to the final siren are goooooone and replaced by real winners like Chito etc

 

[George]

There was one throw in that Crouch was going off because no one was on Dusty, Crouch was furious and still no one went to Dusty.
Guess who got the clearance ?

Seb Ross?

 

[George]

I still think it’s mainly a system problem unfortunately.

George was pretty much on his own on this board in being a sceptic when Lyon was appointed but, to be fair to him, a lot of the problems and reservations he spoke of are starting to look pretty accurate.

I remember especially he was worried that a coach like Lyon who was big on defensive structures and a “lockdown tackling” sort of game style was behind the times for where the game was going.

At the time I and others countered with saying that hopefully Lyon could improve standards (I think he has) and he could get a more offensive assistant to plug ball movement into Ross’s renowned defensive template.

Personally I’m pretty worried with the past 7 or so weeks. I think our early good form was a bit of a mirage and can be put down to players finally responding to having a coach implement and teach them a proper system after years of being rudderless. Not to mention we were apparently flogged on the track in pre-season meaning we had a jump on the rest of the comp fitness-wise.

What concerns me the most though is the stuff George touched on in pre-season. Have we brought a coach in that is an adherent to a system that is diametrically opposed to the direction the game is taking now? The era of ball movement being key is just starting and, with crack downs on tackling and concussion, is only going to get more pronounced.

Does Lyon have it in his locker to coach a team to be elite in this area (ball movement)? Because, I hate to say it, he’ll have to (or at least unearth an assistant that can) if we are going to have any success in the modern AFL.

The Mcrae’s and even the McQualter’s of the world are well versed in coaching ball movement because that’s what they had to do as assistants.

Ross will have to either upskill in this area (unlikely) or find an assistant that can teach his playing group how to do it (hopefully).

Plenty of question marks going forward still as we seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment.

Thanks I appreciate that. To be fair there were a few others who thought the same but yes I can't shut up so was probably the most vocal.

I had two real fears leading into the season and it was if Ross could delegate (personally think he is doing that so that's fine) and the other was his ability to adapt to the modern game. Jury is still out. Our inconsistency has reared its ugly head again, we haven't won consecutive games since Round 5 I believe.

I'm confident we will play finals from here because I don't think Lyon will let us unravel completely like Ratten did, however we really need to begin to put the teams we should beat away.

We were way too King focused last night too and that was another fear of mine. We played so well when he was out of the side and now he's back the blinkers are on and we just continue to kick it to him when usually he's outnumbered.

The very coachable group rhetoric to me insinuates that the players can't direct out on field. They have a poor understanding of what it takes to win. This is partly because there's a lot of kids out there but also the senior players that we do have lack leadership.

Ross really needs to amend the clearance game before anything else IMO. We get smashed in there every week.

And again, the quicker we move players like Howard and Gresham on, the better we'll be. Howard especially, can set your watch to him giving away a few goals every week. Absolutely killing us with dumb football.

Would be a huge failure if we don't make finals from here.

 

[Sully111]

Brad Crouch

5

Brad Crouch

Age

30

Ht

186cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

26.1

5star

K

12.1

4star

HB

14.0

5star

M

2.7

3star

T

5.5

5star

CL

5.0

5star

D

20.3

5star

K

11.1

4star

HB

9.1

5star

M

1.5

2star

T

3.9

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

21.6

5star

K

10.0

4star

HB

11.6

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

4.2

5star

CL

2.6

5star

must be bloody frustrated lately. He's giving 100%.... needs help

 

[Ads734]

Jeez can we all just calm the F down. Some perspective. We all expected to be bottom 4 this year.

NAS
Owens
Pou
Windy
Butler
Wilkie
Sinks
King
Crouch
Wood
Higgins
Camaniti
Marshal

We’re currently 5th beaten some decent enough teams. Shown we can play football. I’m not buying this Ross isn’t attacking enough or isn’t up to the modern game. Interestingly we kicked 30 points in the first q. We’ve seen some players grow this year. Ross is trying to lift the standards. Brick by brick. We came up against a flaming hot Richmond in cot hind 350. Is our midfield one short yea, our one short in defence, yes . Just ride the season. We are a genuine chance to make finals still.

 

[George]

Jeez can we all just calm the F down. Some perspective. We all expected to be bottom 4 this year.

NAS
Owens
Pou
Windy
Butler
Wilkie
Sinks
King
Crouch
Wood
Higgins
Camaniti
Marshal

We’re currently 5th beaten some decent enough teams. Shown we can play football. I’m not buying this Ross isn’t attacking enough or isn’t up to the modern game. Interestingly we kicked 30 points in the first q. We’ve seen some players grow this year. Ross is trying to lift the standards. Brick by brick. We came up against a flaming hot Richmond in cot hind 350. Is our midfield one short yea, our one short in defence, yes . Just ride the season. We are a genuine chance to make finals still.

You can speak for yourself there, I don't think anyone here expected us to be bottom four at all.

30 in the first quarter and 40 over the next three. Can't remember the last time we kicked a ton.

 

[Sully111]

Jeez can we all just calm the F down. Some perspective. We all expected to be bottom 4 this year.

I didn't

 

[Ads734]

You can speak for yourself there, I don't think anyone here expected us to be bottom four at all.

30 in the first quarter and 40 over the next three. Can't remember the last time we kicked a ton.

Yea 30 points and then thumping rain…
I get it I just think like the comp is a lot more even then people give it credit for outside of west coast. Richmond were hot. I’m more dissapointed that we let our first lead so quick.

 

[Ads734]

I didn't

Let me rephrase much of the football public.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I agree that Ross seems to at least understand the way the game is going (he’s mentioned that stand rule thing a number of times), and we looked good at it early in the year but I think that was more a matter of us having superior fitness and gut running ability early on (meaning loose men were more obvious for our players to be able to hit up… so more of a fitness thing than system thing).

What has worried me the most ball movement-wise that may not show up on stats is, since the Port game when it looked like the comp worked out how to clog us up, other clubs have copied it and we are going back to bombing it long. As I mentioned above, that can be a fitness issue more than anything as we aren’t able to run and find space (take teams to the deep end).

When fitness evens up, do we have a system that allows us to kick our way through zones? Because I haven’t seen a Ross Lyon team move the ball like the likes of the Pies, Richmond, Crows and even the Hawks do.

Stats can be misleading. I’ve watched enough footy to know my eyes can see we were worked out at the Port game and have now reverted to poor long-bomb habits too often since (a few gifted players excepted like Sincs).

The above has affected our own zone and our ability to defend turnover as well unfortunately. Teams like the Crows and the Hawks cut through us like butter once they learned how to clog up our ball movement and force us long (we gave Sicily the chance to intercept with our aimless bombing).

Again, something has been off with our system since the Port game and needs to be fixed. But it’s not easy and not many coaches can do it.

Stats unfortunately don’t tell the whole picture with this. If they did, coaching would be easy.

I’m not going to pretend like I have all the answers, but we’re also 18th in the comp for long kicks, so I also find it pretty hard to believe with that being the case that kicking it long too much is some huge issue for us.

If it’s an issue for us, and we do it the least of any team, then it must be an enormous issue for a bunch of other teams.

Something else that you can also pretty much guarantee will happen is that teams will eventually work out ways to make it hard for you to play the way you want to, and that you’ll then go through a period of things not working as smoothly as they were before, until you work out a new way or ways to play, until that too gets worked out, and rinse and repeat.

Ratts didn’t seem too good at being able to adapt and evolve, so let’s see how good Ross ends up being at it.

One thing I am sure of is that he’s an extremely smart operator, who doesn’t take much crap, and won’t tolerate things not working well for too long, so I’m not going to go losing sleep worrying about it.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Where’s the ****ing melts? Got nothing to read

 

[pebblesofsand]

Jeez can we all just calm the F down. Some perspective. We all expected to be bottom 4 this year.

NAS
Owens
Pou
Windy
Butler
Wilkie
Sinks
King
Crouch
Wood
Higgins
Camaniti
Marshal

We’re currently 5th beaten some decent enough teams. Shown we can play football. I’m not buying this Ross isn’t attacking enough or isn’t up to the modern game. Interestingly we kicked 30 points in the first q. We’ve seen some players grow this year. Ross is trying to lift the standards. Brick by brick. We came up against a flaming hot Richmond in cot hind 350. Is our midfield one short yea, our one short in defence, yes . Just ride the season. We are a genuine chance to make finals still.

You can speak for yourself there, I don't think anyone here expected us to be bottom four at all.

30 in the first quarter and 40 over the next three. Can't remember the last time we kicked a ton.

I expected us to be Top 4 so I'm bitterly disappointed that we are only 5th with 113%.

I think the answer is to sack Ross, trade everyone out for a packet chips and trade in some duds who can't get a game in the other sides.

While we're at it I think we should drop Howard so we can play Sharman full time on Daniher or Hipwood because he made a couple of excellent spoils as the 3rd/5th up defender so clearly he's a key defender, then I'd drop Seb and Steele and bring in Hotton and Connolly (well they are the only fit "mids" available for selection)

 

[Yawkey way]

Because it helps bring good players into the club and elevates our standing in the league

Regarding Howard, keep him in the VFL the rest of the year and get rid of him come seasons end. Never seen anything like it before, not up to standard at all.

Howard has been very frustrating since he joined us Imo. Having said that he’s played some very good games and does have talent. I think the most surprising thing is that how we use him hasn’t changed much and that’s on the coaches. Imo he’s still in our best 22 but needs a much narrower focus given his limitations, he’s a good mark and booming kick so I’m surprised he hasn’t had some time playing as a high half forward. Anyway I don’t see how we can leave him out this week we’ll be undersized against Brisbane as it is.

 

[Yawkey way]

While Wood has definitely dropped off significantly since he did his shoulder when he was on fire against Essendon, he had a very noteworthy 14 contested possessions last night, which was the 4th-most of anyone on the ground and hella-impressive for someone playing mainly wing.

All the others in the top 8 (11 or more) played on the inside.

Was similar to his 16 contested possession game against Port in the wet in Cairns last year. He evidently thrives in those conditions.

Playing with a shoulder injury has impacted his game.

 

[Yawkey way]

Hopefully Hayes can get back out there for the last month or so.

Could also play Sharman in Mitch’s role, as he has a big leap which would be useful in the ruck contests.

I liked what I saw of Jack Hayes but as a centre bounce ruckman we might as well put butler in there.

 

[phantom13]

Howard has been very frustrating since he joined us Imo. Having said that he’s played some very good games and does have talent. I think the most surprising thing is that how we use him hasn’t changed much and that’s on the coaches. Imo he’s still in our best 22 but needs a much narrower focus given his limitations, he’s a good mark and booming kick so I’m surprised he hasn’t had some time playing as a high half forward. Anyway I don’t see how we can leave him out this week we’ll be undersized against Brisbane as it is.

Respectfully Doogs isn’t a good mark, he’s a good spoiler but his hands are pretty ****ing average for a dude his height.

I agree with the rest though, he needs to be playing one on one with the biggest key forward and when he does get the ball he either gives a short, slow handball to Nas or Sincs or Hill sweeping around or he kicks it as long down the line as he can.

There’s a spot for him in the team, it’s just as a dude who gets 3 kicks, 2 handballs and 10 spoils and blocks out someone so Wilkie can mark the intercept.

 

[seasonedsainter]

Steele and Ross in the same midfield is slaughtering us, something has to give.

Dougal will finally be dropped, the small mercy.

Inability of players and coaches to adapt to wet weather footy costs us. Wasted chances also. Spirited comeback, think we just ran out of steam and match winners in the end. Also to give up our early lead so easily was very poor.

The forward line seems out of whack to where it was earlier in the season, needs tweaking.

Primarily though we simply cannot afford to get torched in the midfield on a weekly basis.

RTB getting a more cagey in those pressers, arms length, he's not answering questions he's giving statements.

 

[seasonedsainter]

Dougal at high half forward would be an interesting experiment, I'd agree with that for the laughs it could provide alone.

 

[gringo2011]

Jeez can we all just calm the F down. Some perspective. We all expected to be bottom 4 this year.

NAS
Owens
Pou
Windy
Butler
Wilkie
Sinks
King
Crouch
Wood
Higgins
Camaniti
Marshal

We’re currently 5th beaten some decent enough teams. Shown we can play football. I’m not buying this Ross isn’t attacking enough or isn’t up to the modern game. Interestingly we kicked 30 points in the first q. We’ve seen some players grow this year. Ross is trying to lift the standards. Brick by brick. We came up against a flaming hot Richmond in cot hind 350. Is our midfield one short yea, our one short in defence, yes . Just ride the season. We are a genuine chance to make finals still.

I didn't expect bottom 4. We played a very experienced Tigers side though. This year a lot of guys like Cotchin and Martin looked past their best. They both turned back the clock.

They had Judson Clark 19, Sampson Ryan 22 who subbed out and Ralphsmith who is 21. That was their youth quota.

We had Owens, Caminiti, Windhager, Nas, Phillipou, Byrnes and Sharman added to a pretty average list. The Tigers played the bulk of their triple premiership side in conditions that suit their scrub the ball forward game style.

We are still getting knocked over by sides hitting low percentage shots as well. Bolton's ability to turn half chances into goals and their long range shots hitting the mark cost us. Add a few dumb turn overs and that was the difference.

 

[Yawkey way]

Respectfully Doogs isn’t a good mark, he’s a good spoiler but his hands are pretty ******* average for a dude his height.

I agree with the rest though, he needs to be playing one on one with the biggest key forward and when he does get the ball he either gives a short, slow handball to Nas or Sincs or Hill sweeping around or he kicks it as long down the line as he can.

There’s a spot for him in the team, it’s just as a dude who gets 3 kicks, 2 handballs and 10 spoils and blocks out someone so Wilkie can mark the intercept.

He’s no buckets but it’s not a weakness, generally I want the ball in the hands of guys who use it well as much as possible. I’m not sure it’s practical the way the ball is switched etc to have a guy barely touching it but I wouldn’t have him kicking out and he’d have clear instructions to give the ball off or as you say long down the line.

 

[George]

I expected us to be Top 4 so I'm bitterly disappointed that we are only 5th with 113%.

I think the answer is to sack Ross, trade everyone out for a packet chips and trade in some duds who can't get a game in the other sides.

While we're at it I think we should drop Howard so we can play Sharman full time on Daniher or Hipwood because he made a couple of excellent spoils as the 3rd/5th up defender so clearly he's a key defender, then I'd drop Seb and Steele and bring in Hotton and Connolly (well they are the only fit "mids" available for selection)

Great post, yep we're 5th with 113% everyone, nothing to see here. Let's not discuss and address any obvious issues because we simply can't get any better than this. What a shit take

 

[George]

Howard has been very frustrating since he joined us Imo. Having said that he’s played some very good games and does have talent. I think the most surprising thing is that how we use him hasn’t changed much and that’s on the coaches. Imo he’s still in our best 22 but needs a much narrower focus given his limitations, he’s a good mark and booming kick so I’m surprised he hasn’t had some time playing as a high half forward. Anyway I don’t see how we can leave him out this week we’ll be undersized against Brisbane as it is.

We need to start planning for a future without him though.

Statement has to be made at selection at some point, can't keep consistently serving up this level of footy and expect to hold your spot.

 

[Yawkey way]

Haha I'm not contradicting myself at all. Our midfield is s**t but the team as a whole is good enough to be playing finals. They aren't performing above expectations at all. We saw this from them last year.

A coach like Ross Lyon doesn't need a year to figure anything out. McRae came in at Collingwood and nearly took them to a GF in his first year. This talk about waiting and being patient is rubbish. There was nothing to find out about this list, we've known who can and can't hack it for years.

McRae had a lot more to work with Imo and we are a good chance to play finals. I‘m pretty happy with what we’ve done so far and very pleased with the young guys getting games.