Autopsy Round 14, 2023: Richmond v St.Kilda

[NarklesHelmet]

You can't polish a turd though. Maybe we just aren't a very good list. We look like we don't have a midfield with enough depth and quality. If other clubs improve by 50% and you only improve by 40% they go past you. Adelaide, Gold Coast, Essendon, Port, Hawks and North have all improved on last year. There is only really WCE left that are proper s**t and they have a lot of injury issues. We have missed finals for 12 years apart from the short game short season hub year. Most of it has been stupid decisions with list management and drafting.

I still think it’s mainly a system problem unfortunately.

George was pretty much on his own on this board in being a sceptic when Lyon was appointed but, to be fair to him, a lot of the problems and reservations he spoke of are starting to look pretty accurate.

I remember especially he was worried that a coach like Lyon who was big on defensive structures and a “lockdown tackling” sort of game style was behind the times for where the game was going.

At the time I and others countered with saying that hopefully Lyon could improve standards (I think he has) and he could get a more offensive assistant to plug ball movement into Ross’s renowned defensive template.

Personally I’m pretty worried with the past 7 or so weeks. I think our early good form was a bit of a mirage and can be put down to players finally responding to having a coach implement and teach them a proper system after years of being rudderless. Not to mention we were apparently flogged on the track in pre-season meaning we had a jump on the rest of the comp fitness-wise.

What concerns me the most though is the stuff George touched on in pre-season. Have we brought a coach in that is an adherent to a system that is diametrically opposed to the direction the game is taking now? The era of ball movement being key is just starting and, with crack downs on tackling and concussion, is only going to get more pronounced.

Does Lyon have it in his locker to coach a team to be elite in this area (ball movement)? Because, I hate to say it, he’ll have to (or at least unearth an assistant that can) if we are going to have any success in the modern AFL.

The Mcrae’s and even the McQualter’s of the world are well versed in coaching ball movement because that’s what they had to do as assistants.

Ross will have to either upskill in this area (unlikely) or find an assistant that can teach his playing group how to do it (hopefully).

Plenty of question marks going forward still as we seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment.

 

[Inside fiddy]

Thanks for your contribution campaigner face.

Sorry I didn’t mean to upset you. I was just stating facts about the free kick count and that Richmond were winning in the dry weather.

 

[phantom13]

I’m not really convinced the midfield is as bad as others say and before anyone jumps down my throat.

Geelong won a flag last year with Guthrie, O’Connor, an old Danger and Selwood, Duncan and Atkins. Our general rotation of Steele, Crouch, Windy, Byrnes, Gresh and whoever isn’t all that bad comparatively.

To me the issue is more about the roles and structure, especially at clearance. We looked better earlier in the year with a receiver, sweeper and then spacers, now we just seem to have a bunch of blokes at the ball and no real space, the footage in the clip posted earlier of Tarantos goal kinda proves it too.

Ross is standing behind Taranto (so not goalside) and yet we had no one sweeping to pressure the ball coming out and we had a bunch of guys under the ruckmans nose.

Now granted Geelong had a really solid defence with Stewart marshalling the whole thing and an incredible forward line with Hawkins and Cameron and we’re not quite there but people have been banging on about us finding a Bont or Dusty or Trac for years, it’s not a strategy to wait for a generational talent to come along.

I’m all for Ross assessing and tweaking the list but he’s also gotta make the plan fit the parts.

 

[phantom13]

Sorry I didn’t mean to upset you. I was just stating facts about the free kick count and that Richmond were winning in the dry weather.

You’re new to BF but it’s not wise to enter a clubs thread discussing a game after a loss and niggle posters, you’ll be banned every week.

 

[Mowman]

I still think it’s mainly a system problem unfortunately.

George was pretty much on his own on this board in being a sceptic when Lyon was appointed but, to be fair to him, a lot of the problems and reservations he spoke of are starting to look pretty accurate.

I remember especially he was worried that a coach like Lyon who was big on defensive structures and a “lockdown tackling” sort of game style was behind the times for where the game was going.

At the time I and others countered with saying the at hopefully Lyon could improve standards (I think he has) and he could get a more offensive assistant to plug ball movement into Ross’s renowned defensive template.

Personally I’m pretty worried with the past 7 or so weeks. I think our early good form was a bit of a mirage and can be put down to players finally responding to having a coach implement and teach them a proper system after years of being rudderless. Not to mention we were apparently flogged on the track in pre-season meaning we had a jump on the rest of the comp fitness-wise.

What concerns me the most though is the stuff George touched on in pre-season. Have we brought a coach in that is an adherent to a system that is diametrically opposed to the direction the game is taking now? The era of ball movement being key is just starting and, with crack downs on tackling and concussion, is only going to get more pronounced.

Does Lyon have it in his locker to coach a team to be elite in this area (ball movement)? Because, I hate to say it, he’ll have to (or at least unearth an assistant that can) if we are going to have any success in the modern AFL.

The Mcrae’s and even the McQualter’s of the world are well versed in coaching ball movement because that’s what they had to do as assistants.

Ross will have to either upskill in this area (unlikely) or find an assistant that can teach his playing group how to do it (hopefully).

Plenty of question marks going forward still as we seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment.

I still believe we have the best man available would have him before anyone still

 

[aussierulesrules]

I still think it’s mainly a system problem unfortunately.

George was pretty much on his own on this board in being a sceptic when Lyon was appointed but, to be fair to him, a lot of the problems and reservations he spoke of are starting to look pretty accurate.

I remember especially he was worried that a coach like Lyon who was big on defensive structures and a “lockdown tackling” sort of game style was behind the times for where the game was going.

At the time I and others countered with saying the at hopefully Lyon could improve standards (I think he has) and he could get a more offensive assistant to plug ball movement into Ross’s renowned defensive template.

Personally I’m pretty worried with the past 7 or so weeks. I think our early good form was a bit of a mirage and can be put down to players finally responding to having a coach implement and teach them a proper system after years of being rudderless. Not to mention we were apparently flogged on the track in pre-season meaning we had a jump on the rest of the comp fitness-wise.

What concerns me the most though is the stuff George touched on in pre-season. Have we brought a coach in that is an adherent to a system that is diametrically opposed to the direction the game is taking now? The era of ball movement being key is just starting and, with crack downs on tackling and concussion, is only going to get more pronounced.

Does Lyon have it in his locker to coach a team to be elite in this area (ball movement)? Because, I hate to say it, he’ll have to (or at least unearth an assistant that can) if we are going to have any success in the modern AFL.

The Mcrae’s and even the McQualter’s of the world are well versed in coaching ball movement because that’s what they had to do as assistants.

Ross will have to either upskill in this area (unlikely) or find an assistant that can teach his playing group how to do it (hopefully).

Plenty of question marks going forward still as we seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment.

I would have thought ball movement was about the least of our issues.

Lyon even said when appointed and afterwards how much he thought the “stand” rule had changed the game in the time since he left Freo, and how he thought there were teams that hadn’t taken anywhere near enough advantage of it, so he was more aware than most about how important being able to run and move the ball is.

And he then completely changed the way we approached the game and our training to become a “running team” (including having the likes of Steele, Crouch and Bytel trim down, so that they could run more), so it makes no sense at all to me that that is something you’re worried about.

Pretty sure he or someone else also said as recently as a couple of weeks ago that we were no.1 in the comp at moving the ball from D50 to F50. Further evidence that that is probably the least of our concerns.

Our glaring issue as I see it is the periods of games where we get smashed in the midfield and the other team wins clear clearances and get the ball into our defence quickly and directly, which puts our defence under immense pressure, and doesn’t give us enough time to get our numbers back into defence.

Something that isn’t likely to change until we improve significantly in the middle. Either through Steele in particular getting back to his very best and having others like Clark/Owens/Windy/Pou stepping right up in there, or by adding to that area through recruiting.

If the Whitfield thing is real that would also significantly help our ability to move the ball, as he’s as skilful as anyone in the comp and also has elite running ability.

Having him, Sincs, Wang and Hill on the outside we’d have the potential to move the ball as well as any team.

 

[Mowman]

I did notice this last night

Seb Ross once again he has been guilty of this for years

Senior player

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I still think it’s mainly a system problem unfortunately.

George was pretty much on his own on this board in being a sceptic when Lyon was appointed but, to be fair to him, a lot of the problems and reservations he spoke of are starting to look pretty accurate.

I remember especially he was worried that a coach like Lyon who was big on defensive structures and a “lockdown tackling” sort of game style was behind the times for where the game was going.

At the time I and others countered with saying that hopefully Lyon could improve standards (I think he has) and he could get a more offensive assistant to plug ball movement into Ross’s renowned defensive template.

Personally I’m pretty worried with the past 7 or so weeks. I think our early good form was a bit of a mirage and can be put down to players finally responding to having a coach implement and teach them a proper system after years of being rudderless. Not to mention we were apparently flogged on the track in pre-season meaning we had a jump on the rest of the comp fitness-wise.

What concerns me the most though is the stuff George touched on in pre-season. Have we brought a coach in that is an adherent to a system that is diametrically opposed to the direction the game is taking now? The era of ball movement being key is just starting and, with crack downs on tackling and concussion, is only going to get more pronounced.

Does Lyon have it in his locker to coach a team to be elite in this area (ball movement)? Because, I hate to say it, he’ll have to (or at least unearth an assistant that can) if we are going to have any success in the modern AFL.

The Mcrae’s and even the McQualter’s of the world are well versed in coaching ball movement because that’s what they had to do as assistants.

Ross will have to either upskill in this area (unlikely) or find an assistant that can teach his playing group how to do it (hopefully).

Plenty of question marks going forward still as we seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment.

Its a pity he failed to get McQualter across, not so much for McQualter though.

 

[Dard Ball Get]

I did notice this last night

Seb Ross once again he has been guilty of this for years

Senior player

The amount of times the mids and defenders did not stand defensive side is just beyond me.

It’s like they tried to lose.

Hey, fellas, it’s wet - the ball skids over the back. Room temps.

 

[Mowman]

The amount of times the mids and defenders did not stand defensive side is just beyond me.

It’s like they tried to lose.

Hey, fellas, it’s wet - the ball skids over the back. Room temps.

There was one throw in that Crouch was going off because no one was on Dusty, Crouch was furious and still no one went to Dusty.
Guess who got the clearance ?

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

This year hasn't shown anything, we've known our midfield is hopeless for years. Year of exploration my arse.

lol, I agree with some of the stuff you're posting, but I think it's fair for ross to give the list an himself a clean slate to show what they have under a new system. Unfortunately a lot haven't improved, and the ones that have were already pretty good to start with (sincs, wilkie etc). Love that he's given pou an extended run, and backed owens in early doors. Hope he makes some hard calls re gresh, ross, howard, maybe even give steele a rocket in the 2s. The issue is we've no one to replace them. Literally one decent mid playing for sandy (bytel)... it's cooked. We need to draw from defence (sincs) and the forward line (owens, pou) and build a viable midfield for the long term.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

I don't think that's true. Howard has gone backwards and so has Gresham, both were pretty good last year. So was Seb Ross.

howard has always been bad, the other two were alright, ross had a pretty good patch for a while

 

[gringo2011]

I still think it’s mainly a system problem unfortunately.

George was pretty much on his own on this board in being a sceptic when Lyon was appointed but, to be fair to him, a lot of the problems and reservations he spoke of are starting to look pretty accurate.

I remember especially he was worried that a coach like Lyon who was big on defensive structures and a “lockdown tackling” sort of game style was behind the times for where the game was going.

At the time I and others countered with saying that hopefully Lyon could improve standards (I think he has) and he could get a more offensive assistant to plug ball movement into Ross’s renowned defensive template.

Personally I’m pretty worried with the past 7 or so weeks. I think our early good form was a bit of a mirage and can be put down to players finally responding to having a coach implement and teach them a proper system after years of being rudderless. Not to mention we were apparently flogged on the track in pre-season meaning we had a jump on the rest of the comp fitness-wise.

What concerns me the most though is the stuff George touched on in pre-season. Have we brought a coach in that is an adherent to a system that is diametrically opposed to the direction the game is taking now? The era of ball movement being key is just starting and, with crack downs on tackling and concussion, is only going to get more pronounced.

Does Lyon have it in his locker to coach a team to be elite in this area (ball movement)? Because, I hate to say it, he’ll have to (or at least unearth an assistant that can) if we are going to have any success in the modern AFL.

The Mcrae’s and even the McQualter’s of the world are well versed in coaching ball movement because that’s what they had to do as assistants.

Ross will have to either upskill in this area (unlikely) or find an assistant that can teach his playing group how to do it (hopefully).

Plenty of question marks going forward still as we seem to be in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment.

Hard to know, that midfield is getting found out with Steele, Gresham and Ross all playing way down on their best. Really Crouch is the only mid playing to capacity.

It's really hard to win if your mids are playing poorly especially with a few of the guys who play outside are down as well. Sinclair moves up and we lose a gun behind the ball too. Tigers have lots of those solid types like Rioli, Vlastuin, Short, Baker, Graham etc who are all good and then Taranto starred and Martin, Prestia and Cotchin all played vintage games. That wasn't a young Tigers side, that was a bunch of hardened premiership stars.

System can minimise harm and carry you over a side in a scrap but can't cover for a bare list. Not too worried about Lyon yet, I'll give him a bit longer. He's managed to stop us getting blown away and knocked out that metal collapse in the face adversity at least.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Just a fine for Wangmil.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

I would have thought ball movement was about the least of our issues.

Lyon even said when appointed and afterwards how much he thought the “stand” rule had changed the game in the time since he left Freo, and how he thought there were teams that hadn’t taken anywhere near enough advantage of it, so he was more aware than most about how important being able to run and move the ball is.

And he then completely changed the way we approached the game and our training to become a “running team” (including having the likes of Steele, Crouch and Bytel trim down, so that they could run more), so it makes no sense at all to me that that is something you’re worried about.

Pretty sure he or someone else also said as recently as a couple of weeks ago that we were no.1 in the comp at moving the ball from D50 to F50. Further evidence that that is probably the least of our concerns.

Our glaring issue as I see it is the periods of games where we get smashed in the midfield and the other team wins clear clearances and get the ball into our defence quickly and directly, which puts our defence under immense pressure, and doesn’t give us enough time to get our numbers back into defence.

I agree that Ross seems to at least understand the way the game is going (he’s mentioned that stand rule thing a number of times), and we looked good at it early in the year but I think that was more a matter of us having superior fitness and gut running ability early on (meaning loose men were more obvious for our players to be able to hit up… so more of a fitness thing than system thing).

What has worried me the most ball movement-wise that may not show up on stats is, since the Port game when it looked like the comp worked out how to clog us up, other clubs have copied it and we are going back to bombing it long. As I mentioned above, that can be a fitness issue more than anything as we aren’t able to run and find space (take teams to the deep end).

When fitness evens up, do we have a system that allows us to kick our way through zones? Because I haven’t seen a Ross Lyon team move the ball like the likes of the Pies, Richmond, Crows and even the Hawks do.

Stats can be misleading. I’ve watched enough footy to know my eyes can see we were worked out at the Port game and have now reverted to poor long-bomb habits too often since (a few gifted players excepted like Sincs).

The above has affected our own zone and our ability to defend turnover as well unfortunately. Teams like the Crows and the Hawks cut through us like butter once they learned how to clog up our ball movement and force us long (we gave Sicily the chance to intercept with our aimless bombing).

Again, something has been off with our system since the Port game and needs to be fixed. But it’s not easy and not many coaches can do it.

Stats unfortunately don’t tell the whole picture with this. If they did, coaching would be easy.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

If Ross wants to do it, and Ross is struggling , he has at least one assistant who believes that he's good enough to be a senior coach.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

Haha I'm not contradicting myself at all. Our midfield is s**t but the team as a whole is good enough to be playing finals. They aren't performing above expectations at all. We saw this from them last year.

A coach like Ross Lyon doesn't need a year to figure anything out. McRae came in at Collingwood and nearly took them to a GF in his first year. This talk about waiting and being patient is rubbish. There was nothing to find out about this list, we've known who can and can't hack it for years.

if you think our list is as good as the pies was last year... i mean comon. We lack in the most crucial area

 

[gringo2011]

I’m not really convinced the midfield is as bad as others say and before anyone jumps down my throat.

Geelong won a flag last year with Guthrie, O’Connor, an old Danger and Selwood, Duncan and Atkins. Our general rotation of Steele, Crouch, Windy, Byrnes, Gresh and whoever isn’t all that bad comparatively.

To me the issue is more about the roles and structure, especially at clearance. We looked better earlier in the year with a receiver, sweeper and then spacers, now we just seem to have a bunch of blokes at the ball and no real space, the footage in the clip posted earlier of Tarantos goal kinda proves it too.

Ross is standing behind Taranto (so not goalside) and yet we had no one sweeping to pressure the ball coming out and we had a bunch of guys under the ruckmans nose.

Now granted Geelong had a really solid defence with Stewart marshalling the whole thing and an incredible forward line with Hawkins and Cameron and we’re not quite there but people have been banging on about us finding a Bont or Dusty or Trac for years, it’s not a strategy to wait for a generational talent to come along.

I’m all for Ross assessing and tweaking the list but he’s also gotta make the plan fit the parts.

I agree but we don't have any depth if any of them have injury and form issues. Nank is what I wish Marshall was. He's tough and brutal and knows how to turn a game with little acts. Marshall is an extra mid and his numbers look great but he seems to be having less impact this season.

 

[gringo2011]

I agree that Ross seems to at least understand the way the game is going (he’s mentioned that stand rule thing a number of times), and we looked good at it early in the year but I think that was more a matter of us having superior fitness and gut running ability early on (meaning loose men were more obvious for our players to be able to hit up… so more of a fitness thing than system thing).

What has worried me the most ball movement-wise that may not show up on stats is, since the Port game when it looked like the comp worked out how to clog us up, other clubs have copied it and we are going back to bombing it long. As I mentioned above, that can be a fitness issue more than anything as we aren’t able to run and find space (take teams to the deep end).

When fitness evens up, do we have a system that allows us to kick our way through zones? Because I haven’t seen a Ross Lyon team move the ball like the likes of the Pies, Richmond, Crows and even the Hawks do.

Stats can be misleading. I’ve watched enough footy to know my eyes can see we were worked out at the Port game and have now reverted to poor long-bomb habits too often since (a few gifted players excepted like Sincs).

The above has affected our own zone and our ability to defend turnover as well unfortunately. Teams like the Crows and the Hawks cut through us like butter once they learned how to clog up our ball movement and force us long (we have Sicily the chance with our winless bombing).

Again, something has been off with our system since the Port game and needs to be fixed. But it’s not easy and not many coaches can do it.

Stats unfortunately don’t tell the whole picture with this. If they did, coaching would be easy.

Hawks are really interesting, they are playing a handball game and using something completely unique to achieve the same thing that those better sides are doing. Port is a weight of numbers thing, they just have so many options around the ground and so much run. Collingwood are high risk high reward but they have such good ball use that they can cut sides open.

We are playing a lot more kids than a lot of sides around our part of the ladder and carrying some older guys that are not playing well. I'm not sure where the true level is for us at the moment. It feels like a side that sits between 5th and 12th range to me we are achieving at the top end of that and the tightness of the ladder is crazy. Geelong and Sydney could both miss finals this year and there is only one side that looks uncompetitive.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

Personal opinion obviously but the “ducking” s**t is ridiculous and I already mentioned that I liked that Cotchin has some prick about him.

Personally if you don’t respect those two and love the way they play footy you probably should watch another sport.

hahahaha, why would I watch a different sport? Fgn love watchin the mighty sainters, sorry I don't fap over the hairdo crotchin

 

[Minga]

Just a fine for Wangmil.

Good. Will be very important against Brisbane.

 

[austinnn]

Year of exploration
Is nothing more than a BS excuse for losing

Disagree - stated my opinion about that in the Unfinished Business thread. It's hard for us fans but it will pay off long term.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Hard to know, that midfield is getting found out with Steele, Gresham and Ross all playing way down on their best. Really Crouch is the only mid playing to capacity.

It's really hard to win if your mids are playing poorly especially with a few of the guys who play outside are down as well. Sinclair moves up and we lose a gun behind the ball too. Tigers have lots of those solid types like Rioli, Vlastuin, Short, Baker, Graham etc who are all good and then Taranto starred and Martin, Prestia and Cotchin all played vintage games. That wasn't a young Tigers side, that was a bunch of hardened premiership stars.

System can minimise harm and carry you over a side in a scrap but can't cover for a bare list. Not too worried about Lyon yet, I'll give him a bit longer. He's managed to stop us getting blown away and knocked out that metal collapse in the face adversity at least.

I think for me Richmond changed the way I thought about “midfields”.

They weren’t bothered with clearances as they were confident their system would get the ball back and they could rebound from there with ball movement.

I mentioned in another post that we’ve reverted to bombing it long since Port: something is off. We’ve given blokes like Aliir, Sicily, Crows blokes and Vlaustin last night a chance to intercept at will and then launch rebound attacks cutting through our zone.

Until we have a system that doesn’t give the ball back to the opposition by bombing it long to no one, we’ll just be making up the numbers.

Lyon started promisingly but we have reverted to Ratts/Richo ball recently. I’m not all doom and gloom and think the coaches made noticeable improvements early in the year but the problems we have had lately have to be acknowledged and, hopefully, fixed as this is where elite coaches earn their money.

 

[gringo2011]

I would have thought ball movement was about the least of our issues.

Lyon even said when appointed and afterwards how much he thought the “stand” rule had changed the game in the time since he left Freo, and how he thought there were teams that hadn’t taken anywhere near enough advantage of it, so he was more aware than most about how important being able to run and move the ball is.

And he then completely changed the way we approached the game and our training to become a “running team” (including having the likes of Steele, Crouch and Bytel trim down, so that they could run more), so it makes no sense at all to me that that is something you’re worried about.

Pretty sure he or someone else also said as recently as a couple of weeks ago that we were no.1 in the comp at moving the ball from D50 to F50. Further evidence that that is probably the least of our concerns.

Our glaring issue as I see it is the periods of games where we get smashed in the midfield and the other team wins clear clearances and get the ball into our defence quickly and directly, which puts our defence under immense pressure, and doesn’t give us enough time to get our numbers back into defence.

Something that isn’t likely to change until we improve significantly in the middle. Either through Steele in particular getting back to his very best and having others like Clark/Owens/Windy/Pou stepping right up in there, or by adding to that area through recruiting.

If the Whitfield thing is real that would also significantly help our ability to move the ball, as he’s as skilful as anyone in the comp and also has elite running ability.

Having him, Sincs, Wang and Hill on the outside we’d have the potential to move the ball as well as any team.

Interesting that last night we dominated the a lot of the last quarter but the forwards kicked the ball out on the full and made dumb turn overs which went up the other end only for them to score easily from absolute limited chances. Our forward set up was probably working better early on without our better players in there. There was a bit more of a focus on isolating teammates rather than trying to all be a hero.

 

[phantom13]

I agree but we don't have any depth if any of them have injury and form issues. Nank is what I wish Marshall was. He's tough and brutal and knows how to turn a game with little acts. Marshall is an extra mid and his numbers look great but he seems to be having less impact this season.

That’s fair, my comparison was to Geelong who have Stanley and blicavs in the ruck which is hardly inspiring either but both know their role.

I just don’t think the narrative of “we need a Dusty” or whatever is helpful cause only like 3 teams really have that kind of player, waiting until we get one or trying to turn someone into one isn’t gonna help us.