Autopsy Round 16, 2023: West Coast v St.Kilda *WILKIE 100TH*

[George]

Not sure when but it was when they walked back to a fwd structure after a goal or even a qtr and gresh was talking to owens from a few steps away and Owens was just looking at him and turned away, gresh kept talking and Owens just turns and says ok and turns away again
LOL

seemed like he was trying to push some authority or opinion and the body language given back was 'get a touch eyebrows'

Eyebrows

 

[gringo2011]

West Coast just played their grand final. Completely expected. Our 2nd quarter was abysmal and it was the usual suspects. Some of our players just make some incredibly dumb decisions.
2nd half looked more like us but still some really big lapses in concentration.
Just can’t understand why we continue to blast it into forward line with Higgins up against 3 opponents and no sign of a key tall. Butler was pretty ordinary today but he’s got some credits in the bank.
Yes Max is a bit sooky but our kicks into the forward 50 are so bad no forward has a chance.
Byrnes and Howard need to be told to give it to someone else for the forward entry.
Thought Mase Wood started to find better form in the last half.
I’d love to start moving Owens into midfield but not until Hayes returns.
Below par today
King
Butler
Higgins
Gresham
Ross
Howard
Byrnes
Sincs
Steele (played in patches)

I got stuck into Ratts all last year saying that our forward line game plan and structure was idiotic because we dropped it repeatedly on a stationary Max King's head. We have a new coaching set up and Max King is still demanding the ball stationary in a pack or defenders.

At some point it's not the coaches. His brother works hard to open up space running leads and dragging his player out to make space for others.

It hurts that Jamara Ugle-Hagan is stepping up and looks like he could be the next superstar KPF of the comp while King is doing just enough to be a good player and live a AFL lifestyle with no skin in the game. If he's lucky he'll do a Tom Lynch and get picked up by a good club late in his career and the others will work hard enough to feed him and he'll get his name in a the history books.

Caminiti plays a game that gets the best out of himself and others at the moment. King will get left behind if he doesn't do the work. To me he's almost the biggest disappointment in the side at the moment. He's not playing terrible but he's lazy. His attitude is symbolic of the whole side. Does just enough to get through the game and the season going at 75% and keeping yourself in the side.

You want your forwards to be a bit selfish but not self-centred. We need to get back to playing team footy again.

To me a lot of those guys you reckon were no good were okay. To me the worst were Stocker, Byrnes, King, Hill (except for a patch of good footy late), Ross and the two small forwards Butler and Higgins. Both were playing against a very stretched defence and should have been able to clean up.

 

[Saintbloke]

I never thought we would win by much as we can't kick big scores with our current setup, so it was good to scrape in, but the first half was a shocker, and midfield was sub standard- at least Crouch had a big day, but the rest were standing in mud at centre bounces. Someone needs to take Max aside and teach him how to lead and make space like a good big forward should be doing, instead of trying to out-muscle everyone at contests.

 

[gringo2011]

I’ve been banging on about our form for weeks. People are underestimating how bad we’ve been, we’re a bottom four team masquerading as a finals team. That’s how big the drop off has been and I think we need to start acknowledging it.

Thank god for Mitch Owens.

Yep, exactly like last year, flew in the first half of the year and when the hill stared to get a bit steep we sat on our arses and watched others walk past. 2020 was our ideal year because they cut out the hard climb for us.

 

[gringo2011]

Even with games like this you can learn something. I thought Caminiti was very good when he went into the ruck. His willingness to compete and to keep following up was terrific. I much prefer him in there rather than Owens
I'm not sure on the goal assist stats, but he dished out a couple of handballs that resulted in goals....... and then got completely burnt by Butler!
Maybe it's his long skinny arms but he seem to be able to dish off a handball when most others fail.

Not sure what's going on with Gresham, but if I use the "in balance" test i.e. in balance does he provide more good to the team than bad, he's sitting in the bad ledger at the moment. The amount of times he kicks the ball forward without looking and causes a turnover is poor for a player of his experience and skill. If he continues on his current trajectory, he'll be just another Saints player that has not lived up to his potential.

I reckon Gresham has looked better in the last 2 weeks. He's actually doing the chasing and looks like he's got a bit more buy in. He had a horror run for while where everything he did was shit. He's frustrating because he does stuff that is high risk and when it doesn't come off it looks awful but I thought he was pretty good yesterday over all.

 

[Bertha]

Even with games like this you can learn something. I thought Caminiti was very good when he went into the ruck. His willingness to compete and to keep following up was terrific. I much prefer him in there rather than Owens
I'm not sure on the goal assist stats, but he dished out a couple of handballs that resulted in goals....... and then got completely burnt by Butler!
Maybe it's his long skinny arms but he seem to be able to dish off a handball when most others fail.

Not sure what's going on with Gresham, but if I use the "in balance" test i.e. in balance does he provide more good to the team than bad, he's sitting in the bad ledger at the moment. The amount of times he kicks the ball forward without looking and causes a turnover is poor for a player of his experience and skill. If he continues on his current trajectory, he'll be just another Saints player that has not lived up to his potential.

Agree with Gresh, he had one good quarter where he got a lot of touches and a goal, otherwise he was no where

 

[EconomicDecline]

Insane injury list?

Are you serious?

You'd be at the better end of injuries across the league.

Little to nothing out right now.

Clark and Membrey which wont add much to your current list.

Only thing correct in the above is you will be bottom 8 when the real stuff begins.

Head start on the pre season and a sugar hit with the dictator Ross got your some wins early.

Now its back to reality.

How the **** do you have that crass as shit username? What an absolute ****wit you are.

 

[BigPowerForward]

I reckon Gresham has looked better in the last 2 weeks. He's actually doing the chasing and looks like he's got a bit more buy in. He had a horror run for while where everything he did was s**t. He's frustrating because he does stuff that is high risk and when it doesn't come off it looks awful but I thought he was pretty good yesterday over all.

IMO his output and skill execution for a senior player is below par, and at times he is extremely selfish. Gresham should be the icing on the cake but at the moment he's just a bit of icing sugar dusted over the top of the cake!

 

[Yawkey way]

And a number of players performing well below was anticipated
Have a forward line that can't score and a midfield that is no good
Most teams worked us out very easily after round 6 and we have struggled since

We have effort, some decent players and a few very good ones, we also have a few very overrated players. Most sides have quality mids, realising the engine room is where you absolutely must have quality and preferably depth is essential. We have Steele and crouch who are both very good players and then nothing, guys who’s best football is played elsewhere matched up against the oppositions best.

Then when we win the clearance whilst our delivery into the forward 50 isn’t great it’s more the fact we don’t have a functional forward line. King is so overrated it’s just Koop aid crazy, he’s no buddy Franklin or similar and never will be and he’s a young guy supported by kids and some imo ordinary players. There‘s a reason an opposition player often takes 10 plus marks in defence against us and it’s not just poor delivery. Have a look at Barrass, Hurn and Witherden’s numbers yesterday, 39 marks between 3 players .

In a way it’s a good thing we’re not a little better because that would make it easier to avoid reality and start trying to add 1 big name, top up whatever you want to call it. We are miles off a flag and need to put a plan in place to build a list that really can challenge not just scramble an occasional finals appearance. We’re not doing that with 1 mid first round pick and Gresham compensation. We’re going to need to be disciplined and smart in drafting, trading for at least 3 more years and even then we’ll need some luck. That’s why I was so happy with the keeler pick, Imo without draft capital you’re better to take the occasional flyer on a potential star than another good ordinary player.

I‘m disappointed which is emotional rather than rational because we’ve actually found some quality youngsters and improved our list. I guess I’m tired of always being on the road without ever actually getting to the destination.

 

[gringo2011]

How the * do you have that crass as s*t username? What an absolute ****** you are.

It's his troll burner. He has hardly posted since he started the account.

 

[gringo2011]

IMO his output and skill execution for a senior player is below par, and at times he is extremely selfish. Gresham should be the icing on the cake but at the moment he's just a bit of icing sugar dusted over the top of the cake!

He's having a terrible year no doubt but the last two weeks his effort has increased. He looked lost early going when he should have been staying and staying when he should go. At least his work rate has gone up and it tends to be that you create good form through hard work. He looks close to getting back to me.

 

[Yawkey way]

Some of the words Ross used in his presser summed it up.

Embarrassing was one that stood out to me.

The big concern is the lack of system that he talked about. That is what had us all excited in the first part of the year and it was non existent today.

West Coast average a total of 43 points in the last 6 weeks and had that before half time. Seems like the hunger and willingness to do the team thing has disappeared.

It's bloody frustrating to watch.

West coast turned up and what we’ve seen this year is that when the opposition match our effort we simply aren’t good enough to execute the game plan.

 

[The Punter]

Thoughts:

• So half way through the third quarter and Sinclair can't hit water from the side of a boat. He then found a way to contribute by being more inside, increasing his pressure rating, and doing other things that aren't associated with his usual game.
• We need to talk about the production of the other ruckman. Marshall eventually ran Williams into the ground and his influence was important in the last quarter but Marshall needs to work harder on limiting his opponent.
• Special mention of the umpires who let Williams do anything to Marshall in a ruck contest for three quarters then paid a free against him in the last.
• It's always a pleasure to watch Mitchito compete.
• Kudos to Dougal Howard
  20

  Dougal Howard

  Age

  28

  Ht

  199cm

  Wt

  94kg

  Pos.

  Def

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  10.9

  3star

  K

  7.8

  3star

  HB

  3.1

  3star

  M

  4.4

  4star

  T

  1.4

  3star

  MG

  176.2

  3star

  D

  9.9

  3star

  K

  8.4

  3star

  HB

  1.4

  1star

  M

  4.7

  4star

  T

  0.6

  1star

  MG

  171.9

  3star

  D

  9.0

  3star

  K

  5.4

  2star

  HB

  3.6

  3star

  M

  2.8

  3star

  T

  2.8

  5star

  MG

  133.8

  3star

  , who was very good yesterday. Except in the third when he took a really good mark and ended up running into trouble instead of kicking down the line. Desperately needs a left peg.
• Massive third quarter from Windhager. He just brings something different to the midfield.
• Nice five minutes from the Hammer.
• I'm with gringo2011 on Gresham, but he's not there yet. Needs to keep working.
• Our top seven goalkickers for the year kicked all our goals yesterday.

 

[EddieMurphy]

So annoying wet toast decides to have a dip for the first time in 2 years.

They put on pressure 220+ off the scale, probably haven’t even hit half way on that in 2 years.

They laid 90 tackles, averaging 60.
19 tackles inside 50, average 10.

We had
30 more contested
12 more inside 50s
8 more scoring shots…

We really whupped them.

 

[Yawkey way]

I don't disagree, he's got this side further than they should on current form but more to do with the competition being so even than us. We banked wins when the midfield was ft and firing and now we are like a boxer that's taken a heap of hits to the temples and is starting to wobble from side to side.

Cutting the heart out of the side only works if you replace it and cut too hard and you go back to a rebuilding side again. If we drop to bottom 4 again next year I can't see how the board survives without a challenge. They've been lucky that we have been so bad for so long most have given up and don't have the energy to have a crack any more.

Lyon is a guy who's a finisher not a builder IMO. I think Lyon, Gubby and SOS is the worst possible combo for a side doing a rebuild. It will be a top up with hard working B graders and mediocre recycled players. Pretty much how Richo built us.

If we don’t do the hard yards this will be another 10 year cycle of mediocrity, there are no short cuts. Gutting this list without the means to improve it is just pointless, all it will show to me is frustration.

 

[g_TRAIN]

So annoying wet toast decides to have a dip for the first time in 2 years.

They put on pressure 220+ off the scale, probably haven’t even hit half way on that in 2 years.

They laid 90 tackles, averaging 60.
19 tackles inside 50, average 10.

We had
30 more contested
12 more inside 50s
8 more scoring shots…

We let them pressure us too though.

If you are predictable and stale with your ball movement it becomes very easy for the opposition to apply pressure.

 

[St Kilda Death]

We really whupped them.

 

[EconomicDecline]

It's his troll burner. He has hardly posted since he started the account.

It's like having a username be something like HotHandsCable or TheNoseKnowsAblett. Just insensitive.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

I’d like to see Naz sit down Ross Gresh and Roma and teach them a lesson on trajectory.

 

[MordySaint]

Great coaching by RTB yesterday. Listen to his presser, he made the changes to the play which got them back in the game. He knows the boys are having a little dip in form at the moment and aren't playing the way they should be.

Down by around 30 points twice, managed to claw our way back twice and held on for the win.

 

[Bertha]

He's having a terrible year no doubt but the last two weeks his effort has increased. He looked lost early going when he should have been staying and staying when he should go. At least his work rate has gone up and it tends to be that you create good form through hard work. He looks close to getting back to me.

Based on yesterday's game where he was invisible for 3 quartes?

 

[stavro#4]

I got stuck into Ratts all last year saying that our forward line game plan and structure was idiotic because we dropped it repeatedly on a stationary Max King's head. We have a new coaching set up and Max King is still demanding the ball stationary in a pack or defenders.

At some point it's not the coaches. His brother works hard to open up space running leads and dragging his player out to make space for others.

It hurts that Jamara Ugle-Hagan is stepping up and looks like he could be the next superstar KPF of the comp while King is doing just enough to be a good player and live a AFL lifestyle with no skin in the game. If he's lucky he'll do a Tom Lynch and get picked up by a good club late in his career and the others will work hard enough to feed him and he'll get his name in a the history books.

Caminiti plays a game that gets the best out of himself and others at the moment. King will get left behind if he doesn't do the work. To me he's almost the biggest disappointment in the side at the moment. He's not playing terrible but he's lazy. His attitude is symbolic of the whole side. Does just enough to get through the game and the season going at 75% and keeping yourself in the side.

You want your forwards to be a bit selfish but not self-centred. We need to get back to playing team footy again.

To me a lot of those guys you reckon were no good were okay. To me the worst were Stocker, Byrnes, King, Hill (except for a patch of good footy late), Ross and the two small forwards Butler and Higgins. Both were playing against a very stretched defence and should have been able to clean up.

Are you on something?

If Max King was in any other side delivering what he has done for us in the last 2 years alone.

You would be pulling your dick every 30 seconds watching him.

And if you ever compare JUH as a similar talent I’ll slap you myself.

I wonder what King would do if he had the likes of Bont Treloar McCrae Dale Libba Daniel Smith Williams delivering him the ball with some genuine tall timber near him to spread the defences attention in LoBB JUH and Naughton.

Instead he has A one legged Steele crouch Ross Gresham Byrnes. The only 2 who would put a smile on his face would be NWM or Sinclair.

 

[stavro#4]

We let them pressure us too though.

If you are predictable and stale with your ball movement it becomes very easy for the opposition to apply pressure.

Their pressure rating was through the roof most of that game. That impacts how we use the ball.

The gripe should be how we defended in the first half - which was that we didn’t. We sagged off them and RTB called that out

 

[Saintbloke]

Are you on something?

If Max King was in any other side delivering what he has done for us in the last 2 years alone.

You would be pulling your dick every 30 seconds watching him.

And if you ever compare JUH as a similar talent I’ll slap you myself.

I wonder what King would do if he had the likes of Bont Treloar McCrae Dale Libba Daniel Smith Williams delivering him the ball with some genuine tall timber near him to spread the defences attention in LoBB JUH and Naughton.

Instead he has A one legged Steele crouch Ross Gresham Byrnes. The only 2 who would put a smile on his face would be NWM or Sinclair.

Mate, he has been getting out-positioned and out-marked too often in the last few games, it wouldn't matter how good the delivery is. It's up to him to knuckle down and own his position

 

[g_TRAIN]

Their pressure rating was through the roof most of that game. That impacts how we use the ball.

The gripe should be how we defended in the first half - which was that we didn’t. We sagged off them and RTB called that out

I agree with both things you are saying. The second part is a point I made in another thread.

But with the first point, it's a bit of both ways for mine, yes the pressure was there but we went into our shells, and then that invited them to pour on even more pressure.