Autopsy Round 16, 2023: West Coast v St.Kilda *WILKIE 100TH*

[longlivelenny]

We are following a similar trajectory to last year because we have the same issue. Not RTB's fault.

We don't have elite talent to take control of games, so our wins are based off hard work.

When you get to the middle of the season and everyone is tired and sick of training etc, putting in the hard work becomes more difficult and hence we start to struggle. It's probably only 5% off and the players probably don't even realise but that's all it takes.

I know that I start to struggle towards the end of year and need that break at Christmas time.

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[stavro#4]

We have effort, some decent players and a few very good ones, we also have a few very overrated players. Most sides have quality mids, realising the engine room is where you absolutely must have quality and preferably depth is essential. We have Steele and crouch who are both very good players and then nothing, guys who’s best football is played elsewhere matched up against the oppositions best.

Then when we win the clearance whilst our delivery into the forward 50 isn’t great it’s more the fact we don’t have a functional forward line. King is so overrated it’s just Koop aid crazy, he’s no buddy Franklin or similar and never will be and he’s a young guy supported by kids and some imo ordinary players. There‘s a reason an opposition player often takes 10 plus marks in defence against us and it’s not just poor delivery. Have a look at Barrass, Hurn and Witherden’s numbers yesterday, 39 marks between 3 players .

In a way it’s a good thing we’re not a little better because that would make it easier to avoid reality and start trying to add 1 big name, top up whatever you want to call it. We are miles off a flag and need to put a plan in place to build a list that really can challenge not just scramble an occasional finals appearance. We’re not doing that with 1 mid first round pick and Gresham compensation. We’re going to need to be disciplined and smart in drafting, trading for at least 3 more years and even then we’ll need some luck. That’s why I was so happy with the keeler pick, Imo without draft capital you’re better to take the occasional flyer on a potential star than another good ordinary player.

I‘m disappointed which is emotional rather than rational because we’ve actually found some quality youngsters and improved our list. I guess I’m tired of always being on the road without ever actually getting to the destination.

We have 4 players from the last 2 drafts in our 22 playing key roles.

We have another 2 train ons having made the 22.

that’s this seasons best 22.

If your expectations had you thinking Ross was going to make us an overnight contender. Then you haven’t listened to his messaging.

What we have found right now - 16 weeks in. Is that we have the framework of a good side. A side that could be a contender under Ross with more recruitment.

We clearly have issues. Our best could be good enough. Our consistency is not. We lack gun mids. There is a genuine need for a second ruck and that impacts structure and the use of someone like Owens. We need a genuine key back. Which impacts our ability to intercept and turn defence into attack

 

[stavro#4]

Mate, he has been getting out-positioned and out-marked too often in the last few games, it wouldn't matter how good the delivery is. It's up to him to knuckle down and own his position

You know what’s funny about being “out positioned”

You are at the mercy of the bloke kicking it to you.

Good example. Third quarter. Streaming forward. Byrnes kicks to king on a lead to the near side. 2 meters left - easy chest mark.

It went 2 meters to the right and was intercepted.

Called out on the comms.

 

[BigPowerForward]

You know what’s funny about being “out positioned”

You are at the mercy of the bloke kicking it to you.

Good example. Third quarter. Streaming forward. Byrnes kicks to king on a lead to the near side. 2 meters left - easy chest mark.

It went 2 meters to the right and was intercepted.

Called out on the comms.

Agreed
The delivery to him at times is appalling
If he's in front, they drop it on his head
If he's behind, they drop it short.
Most of the time he's getting spoiled by someone who isn't even his direct opponent.
The connect between the forwards is nowhere near where it should be.
We need to get King isolated one v one more often and that's up to the other forwards to do that, instead of constantly flying against him.

 

[Yawkey way]

We have 4 players from the last 2 drafts in our 22 playing key roles.

We have another 2 train ons having made the 22.

that’s this seasons best 22.

If your expectations had you thinking Ross was going to make us an overnight contender. Then you haven’t listened to his messaging.

What we have found right now - 16 weeks in. Is that we have the framework of a good side. A side that could be a contender under Ross with more recruitment.

We clearly have issues. Our best could be good enough. Our consistency is not. We lack gun mids. There is a genuine need for a second ruck and that impacts structure and the use of someone like Owens. We need a genuine key back. Which impacts our ability to intercept and turn defence into attack

That’s not what I think at all, “ our best could be good enough”. Good enough for what exactly, to win a game or two against top teams then maybe. Of course we can contend with more recruitment, that’s my point we don’t have the players. We also don’t have the picks or trade capital without trading out required players and few have the stomach for that and I’m not talking about billings, Clark or the usual whipping boys.

I have no issues with Ross Lyon at all, we are over achieving, it’s not his list, we have improved and played youngsters. Let’s just stop pretending we’re better than we are or that some quick fix is available. We can hold our ground and improve our list without burning the place down and that is a good result. If we‘re throwing around picks and cash like we’re a player or two short of contending then we’re crazy and it will end badly imo.

 

[gringo2011]

If we don’t do the hard yards this will be another 10 year cycle of mediocrity, there are no short cuts. Gutting this list without the means to improve it is just pointless, all it will show to me is frustration.

Yep, we had this idea that we'd turn Hickey, Bruce and Newnes types back into capital to improve ourselves and ended up with more of the same but cost us draft capital and more money to get to the same spot. The problem with our players is that they are good players at the Saints but would be borderline best 22 in most top sides. Sinclair, Steele, King, Snags and Wilkie with Owens not far behind are about the only good players in the side. Even Brad Crouch and Hill would be borderline at most top clubs.

When we send our players to market they are seen as pet food by the rest of the comp.

 

[gringo2011]

Are you on something?

If Max King was in any other side delivering what he has done for us in the last 2 years alone.

You would be pulling your dick every 30 seconds watching him.

And if you ever compare JUH as a similar talent I’ll slap you myself.

I wonder what King would do if he had the likes of Bont Treloar McCrae Dale Libba Daniel Smith Williams delivering him the ball with some genuine tall timber near him to spread the defences attention in LoBB JUH and Naughton.

Instead he has A one legged Steele crouch Ross Gresham Byrnes. The only 2 who would put a smile on his face would be NWM or Sinclair.

He'd probably stand around with his hands on his hips sulking like he does here. Won't chase, won't lead and can't be ****ed doing anything beyond standing around. He's got more talent than just about anybody on our list but at the moment he's a selfish player who does the bare minimum. Yes we're frustrating but you make your own luck.

Last week the ball was inside our 50 and he wanted a free kick for a push, lay on the ground then put on a performance of sulking while watching the ball go past. I'd drop him like they did Dal Santo and Milne. We need a statement to the players. Even Gresham looks like he gives more effort. That's an indictment.

 

[stavro#4]

That’s not what I think at all, “ our best could be good enough”. Good enough for what exactly, to win a game or two against top teams then maybe. Of course we can contend with more recruitment, that’s my point we don’t have the players. We also don’t have the picks or trade capital without trading out required players and few have the stomach for that and I’m not talking about billings, Clark or the usual whipping boys.

I have no issues with Ross Lyon at all, we are over achieving, it’s not his list, we have improved and played youngsters. Let’s just stop pretending we’re better than we are or that some quick fix is available. We can hold our ground and improve our list without burning the place down and that is a good result. If we‘re throwing around picks and cash like we’re a player or two short of contending then we’re crazy and it will end badly imo.

I think if you take off the rose coloured glasses - someone like Gresham isn’t “required” and if he leaves. It won’t be with bad blood.

You either have 2 options. You cut hard and be a bottom feeder for a few years. Get high end picks. Hope you draft a game changer.

Or you do what we are doing now. Trade a few of the core demographic out. Bring in kids and players who were oddly cut by their club (stocker).

I think you can bring in 1 or 2 decent footballers and it will make a world of difference.

As good as Marshall is. He gets dominated by the bigger rucks at the ruck contest and that hurts the midfield. We need an alternative either a leaper or a monster.

At the end of the day, I wanted to finish low as possible when finals was no longer possible and people on here screamed you needed to create a winning culture. Same people now screaming we are middle of the road.

I don’t see it like that but we will have our challenges that’s for sure. I tend to think it’s only going to take 1 or 2 players to turn us into contenders.

 

[gringo2011]

Their pressure rating was through the roof most of that game. That impacts how we use the ball.

The gripe should be how we defended in the first half - which was that we didn’t. We sagged off them and RTB called that out

But we pressured back and they still found space and managed to hit targets. Their field play looked so much better than ours. We are so focussed on stopping the opposition that we forget to go the other way and have some of the worst skills in the league.

 

[stavro#4]

He'd probably stand around with his hands on his hips sulking like he does here. Won't chase, won't lead and can't be ****ed doing anything beyond standing around. He's got more talent than just about anybody on our list but at the moment he's a selfish player who does the bare minimum. Yes we're frustrating but you make your own luck.

Last week the ball was inside our 50 and he wanted a free kick for a push, lay on the ground then put on a performance of sulking while watching the ball go past. I'd drop him like they did Dal Santo and Milne. We need a statement to the players. Even Gresham looks like he gives more effort. That's an indictment.

Funny Gringo.

The man who made that statement is the same coach who praises Max.

I’ll take his opinion on this one.

I’d imagine all you want as a key forward is your side to give you half a chance when you’re always dealing with multiple defenders.

 

[stavro#4]

But we pressured back and they still found space and managed to hit targets. Their field play looked so much better than ours. We are so focussed on stopping the opposition that we forget to go the other way and have some of the worst skills in the league.

We sat off them for the first half - directly from Ross.

That wasn’t the plan. But it was the action.

When we challenged them head on in the second half we kicked 7.11 to 3.3.

Chalk and cheese.

 

[George]

King has become a detriment to the side and it's not even his fault. I said before his return that I was concerned about how we'd function by sticking him in there, if we'd be too King focused etc. The disconnect is concerning to say the least.

King's first game back was a sloppy win v GWS. Since then we've played Hawthorn (loss), Sydney (thought it was a good win but many said otherwise), Richmond (loss), Brisbane (loss) and West Coast which almost was the worst loss we've had in years.

He likes to throw his weight around which I like but he definitely does sook it up and needs to improve. That said, the garbage delivery doesn't help much.

 

[gringo2011]

I think if you take off the rose coloured glasses - someone like Gresham isn’t “required” and if he leaves. It won’t be with bad blood.

You either have 2 options. You cut hard and be a bottom feeder for a few years. Get high end picks. Hope you draft a game changer.

Or you do what we are doing now. Trade a few of the core demographic out. Bring in kids and players who were oddly cut by their club (stocker).

I think you can bring in 1 or 2 decent footballers and it will make a world of difference.

As good as Marshall is. He gets dominated by the bigger rucks at the ruck contest and that hurts the midfield. We need an alternative either a leaper or a monster.

At the end of the day, I wanted to finish low as possible when finals was no longer possible and people on here screamed you needed to create a winning culture. Same people now screaming we are middle of the road.

I don’t see it like that but we will have our challenges that’s for sure. I tend to think it’s only going to take 1 or 2 players to turn us into contenders.

If you replace Gresham types with Stocker types you replace an injury prone high potential player with an ordinary soldier that plays most games but looks very limited. It is just shifting to a more stable beige list. We are too far down the road to turn back now and have to hope that Toce is a much better recruiter than anyone else we have employed in 20 years and that Gubby and SOS with Lyon in their ear aren't idiots.

We need to chase star quality players in free agency too. No more Hill types. Aim for the top and chase Parish types which would be on about the same money as Hill next year.

One or two players and getting our experienced depth back will help make us competitive but we need a star on baller and more high end across the board. We still have the least high end players of just about any side and are stacked with solid B graders. Need depth through the midfield at an absolute minimum.

 

[gringo2011]

We sat off them for the first half - directly from Ross.

That wasn’t the plan. But it was the action.

When we challenged them head on in the second half we kicked 7.11 to 3.3.

Chalk and cheese.

Simpson probably got a call from the list manager reminding him that pick 1 was at stake. We were definitely better in the second half and they ran out of puff but it looked like the bottom 2 sides battling it out. Play like that against a top 8 side and you'd expect a 10 goal loss.

 

[George]

I think if you take off the rose coloured glasses - someone like Gresham isn’t “required” and if he leaves. It won’t be with bad blood.

You either have 2 options. You cut hard and be a bottom feeder for a few years. Get high end picks. Hope you draft a game changer.

Or you do what we are doing now. Trade a few of the core demographic out. Bring in kids and players who were oddly cut by their club (stocker).

I think you can bring in 1 or 2 decent footballers and it will make a world of difference.

As good as Marshall is. He gets dominated by the bigger rucks at the ruck contest and that hurts the midfield. We need an alternative either a leaper or a monster.

At the end of the day, I wanted to finish low as possible when finals was no longer possible and people on here screamed you needed to create a winning culture. Same people now screaming we are middle of the road.

I don’t see it like that but we will have our challenges that’s for sure. I tend to think it’s only going to take 1 or 2 players to turn us into contenders.

The only way we get out of being middle of the road is if we create a winning culture though. Gringo is right, bottoming out is not an option anymore. Tassie coming in a couple years will swoop on picks so it would be stupid to cut hard and fall to the bottom of the ladder without decent draft picks.

We need to aim to win every game we are in regardless of the implications, a winning culture is a far greater benefit to us than some picks that will be 1 or 2 spots closer to the top end.

 

[gringo2011]

Funny Gringo.

The man who made that statement is the same coach who praises Max.

I’ll take his opinion on this one.

I’d imagine all you want as a key forward is your side to give you half a chance when you’re always dealing with multiple defenders.

I admire hard work when it gets difficult. He's got heaps to work on to meet his potential, I admire the way his brother plays more. He's a workhorse that doesn't wait for others to feed him. Max needs to get the G Train videos out. If he lead like the Train he'd be unstoppable. Even Rooey and Pav would do, they ran their defenders ragged.

 

[L_W_P]

I'd LOVE to see King move up to CHF and play as that link up option through the middle. Go full NRoo with him and give the F50 to Hammer + Owens + Smalls. Maybe bring Cordy in to smash packs again?

Our best form was actually when he was in the team and King wasn't such a magnet for the mids to bomb it to.

 

[hayes]

Yep, exactly like last year, flew in the first half of the year and when the hill stared to get a bit steep we sat on our arses and watched others walk past. 2020 was our ideal year because they cut out the hard climb for us.

And even in 2020 we limped into finals with a shakey second half. If that was a normal season we would’ve flaked out then as well. Ironically these good starts to the year are setting us back further and further.

The coaches are clearly going to go all in on finals this year even though we won’t make it but from next year we have to see all of Owens, Phillipou, Windhager etc playing in the middle regardless of where that takes us.

 

[St Kilda Death]

King has become a detriment to the side and it's not even his fault. I said before his return that I was concerned about how we'd function by sticking him in there, if we'd be too King focused etc. The disconnect is concerning to say the least.

King's first game back was a sloppy win v GWS. Since then we've played Hawthorn (loss), Sydney (thought it was a good win but many said otherwise), Richmond (loss), Brisbane (loss) and West Coast which almost was the worst loss we've had in years.

He likes to throw his weight around which I like but he definitely does sook it up and needs to improve. That said, the garbage delivery doesn't help much.

Yep too king focused.
But bigger problem is they miss him.
RTB should tell our mids to aim for the tit of the CHB and maybe a few will fall in Kings lap.

 

[Fehring]

I flew over for the game. Spent half time looking for a bin to put my scarf in. But I lived rent free inside the heads of the Eagle supporters all day and it felt like a massive win as they slunk off at the end.

From being at the game, the pressure at ground balls and clearances was the difference. We sorted that out after half time so we got first hands on the ball and had good options around the pack to either receive or tackle. It meant we got lots of quality clearances and won't the majority of 50/50 balls.

In the first half, they had their deepest defender sitting 20m back when the ball was in their f50 which made it impossible for us to fast break, especially under so much pressure. After half time that structure and intensity at the contest enables us to break their zone and get good looks.

Other random thoughts:

• Boy, Caminiti is a confidence player. First half he was trying to mark the ball with his hands 50cm apart!
• Dougal and Cal in that last quarter were incredible.
• Mitchito and Mason always kick the pressure snaps.
• I was disappointed that we tried to save the game once we got a goal up.
• Thank you Jamie Cripps
  15

  Jamie Cripps

  Age

  32

  Ht

  184cm

  Wt

  83kg

  Pos.

  Fwd

  Career

  Season

  Last 5

  D

  12.7

  3star

  K

  7.9

  3star

  HB

  4.8

  3star

  M

  3.6

  4star

  T

  3.9

  5star

  G

  1.3

  5star

  D

  10.3

  3star

  K

  6.3

  3star

  HB

  4.0

  3star

  M

  2.4

  3star

  T

  2.4

  3star

  G

  0.4

  3star

  D

  6.4

  2star

  K

  4.2

  2star

  HB

  2.2

  2star

  M

  1.0

  1star

  T

  2.4

  4star

  G

  1.4

  5star

  for finally doing the Saints a solid at the end.

 

[MordySaint]

I'd LOVE to see King move up to CHF and play as that link up option through the middle. Go full NRoo with him and give the F50 to Hammer + Owens + Smalls. Maybe bring Cordy in to smash packs again?

Our best form was actually when he was in the team and King wasn't such a magnet for the mids to bomb it to.

When King was first drafted he said his "ideal role" was kicking a few goals and also playing on the wing a fair bit. Maybe he needs to be tried in other positions to get some form and touch.

 

[stavro#4]

I admire hard work when it gets difficult. He's got heaps to work on to meet his potential, I admire the way his brother plays more. He's a workhorse that doesn't wait for others to feed him. Max needs to get the G Train videos out. If he lead like the Train he'd be unstoppable. Even Rooey and Pav would do, they ran their defenders ragged.

You have probably seen his brother live a handful of times.

Not sure how you can definitively comment.

Again. Not seeing Ross having an issue with Max’s work rate and I’m not sure he would swap max for any other key forward in the league.

Pav and Roo are all time greats. At the same age Roo had prime Gtrain Hamill and Kosi supporting him.

 

[Yawkey way]

I think if you take off the rose coloured glasses - someone like Gresham isn’t “required” and if he leaves. It won’t be with bad blood.

You either have 2 options. You cut hard and be a bottom feeder for a few years. Get high end picks. Hope you draft a game changer.

Or you do what we are doing now. Trade a few of the core demographic out. Bring in kids and players who were oddly cut by their club (stocker).

I think you can bring in 1 or 2 decent footballers and it will make a world of difference.

As good as Marshall is. He gets dominated by the bigger rucks at the ruck contest and that hurts the midfield. We need an alternative either a leaper or a monster.

At the end of the day, I wanted to finish low as possible when finals was no longer possible and people on here screamed you needed to create a winning culture. Same people now screaming we are middle of the road.

I don’t see it like that but we will have our challenges that’s for sure. I tend to think it’s only going to take 1 or 2 players to turn us into contenders.

Well if you read my posts it appears we’re in furious agreement on many things including marshall and gresham. I just don’t believe we need to clear out as many and some names will change. Really with gresham gone, a name traded, and the usual retirements, delisting etc we’re probably looking at 7 without much effort. Anything after that and what you’re bringing is marginal at best over what you have. Anyway onwards and upwards hopefully

 

[gringo2011]

You have probably seen his brother live a handful of times.

Not sure how you can definitively comment.

Again. Not seeing Ross having an issue with Max’s work rate and I’m not sure he would swap max for any other key forward in the league.

Pav and Roo are all time greats. At the same age Roo had prime Gtrain Hamill and Kosi supporting him.

Pretty sure you said that we had to get Bruce out of his way for him to be a star?

 

[Sully111]

King needs to show the same determination Owens shows every time he goes for the ball.