Autopsy Round 16, 2023: West Coast v St.Kilda *WILKIE 100TH*

[The Punter]

King needs to show the same determination Owens shows every time he goes for the ball.

That level of determination isn't shared by many players at AFL level at all.

 

[ScrappyDo]

When King was first drafted he said his "ideal role" was kicking a few goals and also playing on the wing a fair bit. Maybe he needs to be tried in other positions to get some form and touch.

Short answer is we need Hayes back.

 

[L_W_P]

Pretty sure you said that we had to get Bruce out of his way for him to be a star?

Bruce would be perfect for us right now. He'd be the 2nd tall and back up ruck. Hammer gets the 3rd defender and King can play up the ground a bit more.

 

[gringo2011]

Short answer is we need Hayes back.

Who does he push out though?

 

[ScrappyDo]

Who does he push out though?

Gresham

 

[EddieMurphy]

Their pressure rating was through the roof most of that game. That impacts how we use the ball.

The gripe should be how we defended in the first half - which was that we didn’t. We sagged off them and RTB called that out

Against us they pressured, against no other team they have. Easy to pressure we are.

 

[stavro#4]

Simpson probably got a call from the list manager reminding him that pick 1 was at stake. We were definitely better in the second half and they ran out of puff but it looked like the bottom 2 sides battling it out. Play like that against a top 8 side and you'd expect a 10 goal loss.

The only way we get out of being middle of the road is if we create a winning culture though. Gringo is right, bottoming out is not an option anymore. Tassie coming in a couple years will swoop on picks so it would be stupid to cut hard and fall to the bottom of the ladder without decent draft picks.

We need to aim to win every game we are in regardless of the implications, a winning culture is a far greater benefit to us than some picks that will be 1 or 2 spots closer to the top end.

So you guys want to contend and build a list at the same time without bottoming out so that we can play finals and we are doing this from a position where we aren’t already at the top of the ladder or a financial power house like the pies?

You do realise what you are asking for here right?


So let me try and paint you the picture you need.

We have 4-5 <20 year olds playing most weeks.

Last time a first year player (u20) played as many games as phillipou? Jade Gresham 18 games and prior to that Jack Sinclair in 2015 - off the rookie list. 18 games

Wilkie played all 22 as a 23 year old.
King played 18 in year 2.

At no point in the last 20 years. Have we had as many u20 kids hit 10+ games as we have had this season.

Phillipou 15
Owens 14
Caminiti 12
Windhager 10
NWM 15

All 5 on track to play 15+ games in a single season.

I don’t think you guys have a clue about Ross when you are talking about the type of coach he is. Because he is going against the grain as to what you both have said he does in the past 8 months.

You would be really confident a first round pick plays 10+ next year along with this lot. Plus Hotton and Van Es getting some senior games.

All of a sudden. We are a very young group and you can trade out your older guys to clubs rolling the dice and you further build your numbers behind this group.

Pretty sure you said that we had to get Bruce out of his way for him to be a star?
King is a star

Hardly disputable

 

[stavro#4]

Against us they pressured, against no other team they have. Easy to pressure we are.

Okay… what sort of argument is this? We are also 5th

 

[George]

So you guys want to contend and build a list at the same time without bottoming out so that we can play finals and we are doing this from a position where we aren’t already at the top of the ladder or a financial power house like the pies?

You do realise what you are asking for here right?


So let me try and paint you the picture you need.

We have 4-5 <20 year olds playing most weeks.

Last time a first year player (u20) played as many games as phillipou? Jade Gresham 18 games and prior to that Jack Sinclair in 2015 - off the rookie list. 18 games

Wilkie played all 22 as a 23 year old.
King played 18 in year 2.

At no point in the last 20 years. Have we had as many u20 kids hit 10+ games as we have had this season.

Phillipou 15
Owens 14
Caminiti 12
Windhager 10
NWM 15

All 5 on track to play 15+ games in a single season.

I don’t think you guys have a clue about Ross when you are talking about the type of coach he is. Because he is going against the grain as to what you both have said he does in the past 8 months.

You would be really confident a first round pick plays 10+ next year along with this lot. Plus Hotton and Van Es getting some senior games.

All of a sudden. We are a very young group and you can trade out your older guys to clubs rolling the dice and you further build your numbers behind this group.

Pretty sure you said that we had to get Bruce out of his way for him to be a star?
King is a star

Hardly disputable

We don't have an option. We can't bottom out now because we won't have access to elite talent as Tasmania comes into the competition. We need to continue trying to win every game whilst being smart with the picks we do have and how we can move on players for something better.

There's plenty of examples of clubs rebuilding their lists without spending years down the bottom. If we are a well run club then we can manage that too.

 

[Saint Shags]

So you guys want to contend and build a list at the same time without bottoming out so that we can play finals and we are doing this from a position where we aren’t already at the top of the ladder or a financial power house like the pies?

You do realise what you are asking for here right?


So let me try and paint you the picture you need.

We have 4-5 <20 year olds playing most weeks.

Last time a first year player (u20) played as many games as phillipou? Jade Gresham 18 games and prior to that Jack Sinclair in 2015 - off the rookie list. 18 games

Wilkie played all 22 as a 23 year old.
King played 18 in year 2.

At no point in the last 20 years. Have we had as many u20 kids hit 10+ games as we have had this season.

Phillipou 15
Owens 14
Caminiti 12
Windhager 10
NWM 15

All 5 on track to play 15+ games in a single season.

I don’t think you guys have a clue about Ross when you are talking about the type of coach he is. Because he is going against the grain as to what you both have said he does in the past 8 months.

You would be really confident a first round pick plays 10+ next year along with this lot. Plus Hotton and Van Es getting some senior games.

All of a sudden. We are a very young group and you can trade out your older guys to clubs rolling the dice and you further build your numbers behind this group.

Pretty sure you said that we had to get Bruce out of his way for him to be a star?
King is a star

Hardly disputable

You do realise that

A. You can build a winning culture without contending?
They do not need to mutually exclusive.
In fact building such culture before contending actually put teams in better positions?

And

B. Gringo was having a go at Max's behaviour and attitude. Not at Lyon.

He specifically stated that he had blamed Ratts for Kings attitude but perhaps he needed to focus the attention purely on the player. And to a degree he is right.
King is a prodigious talent. But he is capable of so much more at the present. Yesterday he got called out for a number of selfish acts. And so he should. It's not an individual game it's team based.

King might be a star.

But he could be a Superstar of the game and that is what frustrates.

 

[stavro#4]

We don't have an option. We can't bottom out now because we won't have access to elite talent as Tasmania comes into the competition. We need to continue trying to win every game whilst being smart with the picks we do have and how we can move on players for something better.

There's plenty of examples of clubs rebuilding their lists without spending years down the bottom. If we are a well run club then we can manage that too.

But isn’t that what we are doing mate?

You are literally getting everything you asked for.

Finals contention. Building a list. Playing youth. Winning games.

But because we lost to Hawthorn. Struggled yesterday and the last few weeks has been rough.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. You aren’t alone FYI. I recognise that.

But I just can’t understand how any of our supporters can be upset with this season. I really can’t.

Quite frankly. We are over delivering 15 games into RTBs second tenure.

 

[stavro#4]

You do realise that

A. You can build a winning culture without contending?
They do not need to mutually exclusive.
In fact building such culture before contending actually put teams in better positions?

And

B. Gringo was having a go at Max's behaviour and attitude. Not at Lyon.

He specifically stated that he had blamed Ratts for Kings attitude but perhaps he needed to focus the attention purely on the player. And to a degree he is right.
King is a prodigious talent. But he is capable of so much more at the present. Yesterday he got called out for a number of selfish acts. And so he should. It's not an individual game it's team based.

King might be a star.

But he could be a Superstar of the game and that is what frustrates.

You do realise that:

A) to contend, you need a list capable and I think we can all agree. This is not it.

So you either bottom out and draft and hope you build one. Or you do what we are doing now which posters are upset about the quality of our players.

My expectation for the year was minimal. Free pass almost. Sort the list out and find out who is a legitimate long term option and who is powder puff and needs to go - made that clear when we sacked Ratten.

You can have a losing season and build a winning culture in the expectations and tolerances you set. But move on the wannabes and bring in talented you can mould under a legitimate heavyweight coach.

B) I know what Gringo was arguing. But his opinion doesn’t carry weight when the bloke who dropped Dal Santo and Milne - which Gringo was advocating we do with King, actually values his contribution.

That’s why Max is in the side.

You blokes chew the fat on the few instances you feel like King let himself and the team down.

How about you chew the fat on the numerous times a 23 year old gun forward worked his ass off and then remember. He is 23 - coming off a shoulder reco and getting the ball kicked his way by Ross Byrnes and Gresham

 

[Premium]

Who does he push out though?

Let's see how Hayes comes back , he has only ever played 5 games and really needs to play a few games to see if he is the answer.
I like how Lyon commented on how our midfield is a problem and said Sinclair showed his value in there , it could well see him spend the major part of his game time as a midfielder - he will be a big loss to our backline but hopefully we find a replacement, time for Coffield to get back on the park and then again he has been out of the game so long who knows if he will be better than Sharman or Highmore.

Also Gresham being forced out of the 22 is very doubtful , at least he got a few more touches yesterday and feel there could be a couple players ahead of him being dropped - Byrnes is not playing as good as he was at the start of the season and could be in danger of being dropped even Ross isn't really giving enough and they are not the only ones.

 

[stavro#4]

Let's see how Hayes comes back , he has only ever played 5 games and really needs to play a few games to see if he is the answer.
I like how Lyon commented on how our midfield is a problem and said Sinclair showed his value in there , it could well see him spend the major part of his game time as a midfielder - he will be a big loss to our backline but hopefully we find a replacement, time for Coffield to get back on the park and then again he has been out of the game so long who knows if he will be better than Sharman or Highmore.

Also Gresham being forced out of the 22 is very doubtful , at least he got a few more touches yesterday and feel there could be a couple players ahead of him being dropped - Byrnes is not playing as good as he was at the start of the season and could be in danger of being dropped even Ross isn't really giving enough and they are not the only ones.

Half back is the easiest position to play if you are a classy ball user.

Move Sinclair into the midfield. Load up NWM back there and look at what options we have to cover Sinclair. Maybe it’s Phillipou for 8 weeks. Maybe Clark?

 

[PoppedCorn]

I'd LOVE to see King move up to CHF and play as that link up option through the middle. Go full NRoo with him and give the F50 to Hammer + Owens + Smalls. Maybe bring Cordy in to smash packs again?

Our best form was actually when he was in the team and King wasn't such a magnet for the mids to bomb it to.

Have thought this for a while now
CHF runs like a gazelle and can pick it up form the deck on the run, at 200cm.

Hammer at ff with Sharman up there as well

 

[stavro#4]

 

[aussierulesrules]

We're fifth on the ladder.

With 5 very winnable looking games in the next 6, and next week far from out of the question, against a similarly spluttering top 5 team, coming back from a slog in the wet in Alice Springs.

If we can rediscover what works well for us and get closer to full strength (especially if we regain Jones, Clark and Hayes, and Hill’s OK) we could be a legit shot at top 4.

Plenty of “ifs” there tho.

 

[St Kilda Death]

The way some miserable campaigners carry on,
You would think we aren’t the highest on the ladder we have been at round 16 since 2010.
For the record we were already 9th this time last year.

 

[stavro#4]

With 5 very winnable looking games in the next 6, and next week far from out of the question, against a similarly spluttering top 5 team, coming back from a slog in the wet in Alice Springs.

If we can rediscover what works well for us and get closer to full strength (especially if we regain Jones, Clark and Hayes, and Hill’s OK) we could be a legit shot at top 4.

Plenty of “ifs” there tho.

4 wins from 8 gets us into finals realistically.

Would take 6-7 wins from everyone outside of the 8 to leapfrog us from their final 8 games

 

[PoppedCorn]

Owens at 5 bucks
Easy money surely

 

[aussierulesrules]

“Expected scores” for the match were 108 to 56. So West Coast shot the lights out (21 more than the AFL average from where they took their shots from), while we scored 23 less than expected from where we had our shots.

 

[The Punter]

It's a conundrum only so far as the supporters should approach it mentally. We're a win better off than we were at the same stage in 2008. That year we finished fourth.

 

[Premium]

But isn’t that what we are doing mate?

You are literally getting everything you asked for.

Finals contention. Building a list. Playing youth. Winning games.

But because we lost to Hawthorn. Struggled yesterday and the last few weeks has been rough.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water. You aren’t alone FYI. I recognise that.

But I just can’t understand how any of our supporters can be upset with this season. I really can’t.

Quite frankly. We are over delivering 15 games into RTBs second tenure.

Hell of a lot to play out over the remaining games of the season , we find a solution to our midfield problems and everything could come together.
I hope they realize now that Sinclair needs to start in the midfield , we can't keep playing the same out of form midfielders.
The West Coast game was turned around when Sinclair was moved to the middle and all we need now is someone else to step up.
It was disappointing we never smoked the Eagles but it should spark a few more ideas to fix our problems and Sinclair as a starting mid should be the first change.

 

[stavro#4]

“Expected scores” for the match were 108 to 56. So West Coast shot the lights out (21 more than the AFL average from where they took their shots from), while we scored 23 less than expected from where we had our shots.

Kick straight in the last quarter and it’s a casual 5 goal win away from home and 10 goal turnaround.

First half no excuses. Which is now obviously something they are talking about

 

[Premium]

Half back is the easiest position to play if you are a classy ball user.

Move Sinclair into the midfield. Load up NWM back there and look at what options we have to cover Sinclair. Maybe it’s Phillipou for 8 weeks. Maybe Clark?

Clark could be the one , he has shown more as a halfback than as a mid. - I've been waiting for Coffield to get back but by the looks he still is a month a way.