Autopsy Round 21, 2023: St.Kilda v Carlton

[The Punter]

On the centre square set-up, five minutes into the third quarter Crouch had 27 disposals, Steele was tagging Cripps, and then they moved Sinclair in there. Not a lot of scraps after that.

It's well past time two of those centre square spots were reserved for some sort of composition of Jones, Bytel, Owens, Phillipou, Sinclair and Clark, with Crouch, Steele or Ross as the third mid.

 

[gringo2011]

I‘d love to see Clark, coffield and Paton all fit and in the side round one. They‘re all talented and have proven that at their best we picked well. We lack talent, we need to get rid of the guys who simply will never be anything more than very ordinary players not the guys who can actually play. Also he’s 24 gringo turns 25 next March, I’m not moving out anyone 25 or under unless it’s for overs.

It was a lousy loss and has sunk any thought of finals, it’s frustrating watching other sides load up on talent while we have one first rounder. I get all that and it’s driving me mad as well but now is the time for cool heads, we simply can’t afford to get this off-season wrong.

Part of the problem is that we never seem to be able to develop a lot of players beyond GOPs. Coffield was in and out of the side after a good 2020 and then missed the two seasons since. He looked on the way but went backwards after that. Clark looked promising but has gone backwards. Paton looked the most advanced of all of them and he's gone backwards.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

That is why I am so pessimistic. Our trading has been good the last couple of years.
But the AFL cuts us off by the knees by changing rules (no McKenzie to add to Pou while finalists get Ugle-Hagen, now allowing GC 3 academy players in the top ten to be drafted, North to get priority picks plus a young bloke from the academy etc etc etc).
We were terrible drafting for years, we finally get hope and the governing body skewes the draft so much we won't get a chance to complete the build.
And because of that we are always midtable, not able to get good dp's or high quality trades.
I think it is a disaster. The AFL must have spent 200 mill on GC and established clubs still need to suffer and never go forward because the backslappers at the AFL keep throwing good money after bad.


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If the old rules had still existed last trade period we may well have drafted McKenzie.
We could not have got Phillipou then.

That is not how the scam works.
We could have traded our first round pick and then matched with later picks.

So we could have ended up with Tanner Bruhn or someone , as well as McKenzie.
Not sure that would be better off than the haul of Phillipou, Van Es, Keeler and Hotton .

Good drafting is a slow burn. If we drafted OK in 2020, we'll know by next year.
We got Heath in 2021, half way through, he seems promising , he might get a game next year, doubt he'll be winning games of his own boot.
We got Nas, Owens , and Windy at the end of 21, and they all played some good games in 2022.
Its only this year we are seeing Owens and Nas really take the game on.
We might see Pou break out next year, or he might have 2nd year blues. Keeler might go beserk, or he might wash out. At least we have something in the pipeline now.
For years we had nothing.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Part of the problem is that we never seem to be able to develop a lot of players beyond GOPs. Coffield was in and out of the side after a good 2020 and then missed the two seasons since. He looked on the way but went backwards after that. Clark looked promising but has gone backwards. Paton looked the most advanced of all of them and he's gone backwards.

Coff was looking like the next big thing before he did his ACL in the pre-season.
Doing your ACL is not going backwards in development.

 

[Yawkey way]

Part of the problem is that we never seem to be able to develop a lot of players beyond GOPs. Coffield was in and out of the side after a good 2020 and then missed the two seasons since. He looked on the way but went backwards after that. Clark looked promising but has gone backwards. Paton looked the most advanced of all of them and he's gone backwards.

Injury has really setback all three but I’m confident a bit of patience will be rewarded.

 

[beside the seaside]

I think the question you have to ask over the midfield is why haven't we addressed it over the past few years? When was the last time we traded for a mid? I reckon Lyon has run more bodies through there than we have for the past five seasons. He'll have a good idea about what's missing and I've no doubt we'll be targeting mids this offseason at long last.

Look at Dogs and Pies. Much better midfields than ours and they go out and strengthen with the likes of Lipinski, Mitchell, Poulter. We have sat on our hands for years and we are paying the price, thankfully there are other areas on the ground that we are strong so it's not a total disaster.

 

[Captain Paddy]

I think the question you have to ask over the midfield is why haven't we addressed it over the past few years? When was the last time we traded for a mid? I reckon Lyon has run more bodies through there than we have for the past five seasons. He'll have a good idea about what's missing and I've no doubt we'll be targeting mids this offseason at long last.

Look at Dogs and Pies. Much better midfields than ours and they go out and strengthen with the likes of Lipinski, Mitchell, Poulter. We have sat on our hands for years and we are paying the price, thankfully there are other areas on the ground that we are strong so it's not a total disaster.

Steele, Jones, Hanners, Crouch all traded in or FA
Billings, Gresham, Coffield, Clark, Byrnes, Bytel, Connoley all drafted in.

The truth is that we don't lack mids, we just either suck at identifying ones that are actually good, or developing them once they walk through the doors.

 

[beside the seaside]

Steele, Jones, Hanners, Crouch all traded in or FA
Billings, Gresham, Coffield, Clark, Byrnes, Bytel, Connoley all drafted in.

The truth is that we don't lack mids, we just either suck at identifying ones that are actually good, or developing them once they walk through the doors.

Most of those are going back years. We have had major midfield issues for ages but haven't looked to address it recently apart from Crouch and that's still three years ago.

 

[bird_man]

I think the question you have to ask over the midfield is why haven't we addressed it over the past few years? When was the last time we traded for a mid? I reckon Lyon has run more bodies through there than we have for the past five seasons. He'll have a good idea about what's missing and I've no doubt we'll be targeting mids this offseason at long last.

Look at Dogs and Pies. Much better midfields than ours and they go out and strengthen with the likes of Lipinski, Mitchell, Poulter. We have sat on our hands for years and we are paying the price, thankfully there are other areas on the ground that we are strong so it's not a total disaster.

We have drafted Windhager, Owens, Phillipou and Hotten in a 2 year period.

We also did attempt get DeGoey.

Unfortunately after ignoring the draft for a few years we had to go back and hit the draft rather than trade picks away for whatever we could get.

We really should be throwing our dollars at Parish at the moment. Now that the Sons have slipped they might actually not be too upset to lose him for band one.

 

[beside the seaside]

We have drafted Windhager, Owens, Phillipou and Hotten in a 2 year period.

We also did attempt get DeGoey.

Unfortunately after ignoring the draft for a few years we had to go back and hit the draft rather than trade picks away for whatever we could get.

We really should be throwing our dollars at Parish at the moment. Now that the Sons have slipped they might actually not be too upset to lose him for band one.

Totally agree I actually think our recent drafting has been really good thank christ, our trading has been poor though for example we addressed we needed De Goey but when we missed him we just gave up. Now I know we weren't going to get someone of that quality but it was dumb not to go out and find a mid or ideally two that could contribute.

 

[bird_man]

Totally agree I actually think our recent drafting has been really good thank christ, our trading has been poor though for example we addressed we needed De Goey but when we missed him we just gave up. Now I know we weren't going to get someone of that quality but it was dumb not to go out and find a mid or ideally two that could contribute.

We gave up because we weren't prepared to give away good draft picks though, it was clearly a plan going into the trade period to hit the draft.

DeGoey was a free agent so would not have changed that plan

 

[stfan]

I think the question you have to ask over the midfield is why haven't we addressed it over the past few years? When was the last time we traded for a mid? I reckon Lyon has run more bodies through there than we have for the past five seasons. He'll have a good idea about what's missing and I've no doubt we'll be targeting mids this offseason at long last.

Hate to burst your bubble, but I think the Saints have actually targeted mids from other clubs now for a number of years. Hopefully we can this trade period. If we do not we will be castrated for yet another season next year.

The problem is that they mainly all said no, even if the deal is was like it was to De Goey a very attractive financial one.

Crouch. A win and a FA to boot. I don't think that he had any other real suitors though apart from the Crows who pissed him off with their treatment of him.

Hill. That is partner wanted to return home and live near Brighton gave us the inside running. That plus we were willing to pay him way overs to get him and trade overs to Freo to get him. Problem with Hill is that while he was a master of using the ball when out in space and under no pressure, that he goes to water and under pressure both in that he fumbles, makes poor decisions and his disposal become poor too and the modern game is all about applying pressure all of the time everywhere. Consequently we recruited Hill too late as he does not suit today's style of football. As it stands the "steak knives" in the deal Acres may well deliver more value to Freo/Carlton that Hill to us.

Hannas. Low trade cost in picks as Swans needed the salary dump, but huge $$$. Quality player, but just could not get on the park. His $$$ helped to ensure we had trouble landing other players.

Jones. A HBF a wanted a chance to play mid, and we gave it too him. Poor disposal but he added aggression and [ace to a vanilla midfield. Worth the punt, but his injuries have made it a flop.

Steele...woohoo we got one. A broken ankle probably helped. No ide why Steele has gone missing this year so much. Hopefully he comes good again next season.


Elite mids is what we most need. If we had one or two, then mids like Crouch and Steele would be more effective. Unfortunately we have Trout to thank for not selecting Petracca, exactly the type of player we need, and have long needed. Rare is the chance to grab a top elite mid. Most of our drafts we have been in the wrong part of the draft. That year we were perfectly positioned.

With Poo we maybe have gotten lucky, but jury is out on whether he can become a full time elite mid or not. He will be an elite player for us though.

 

[beside the seaside]

Hate to burst your bubble, but I think the Saints have actually targeted mids from other clubs now for a number of years. Hopefully we can this trade period. If we do not we will be castrated for yet another season next year.

The problem is that they mainly all said no, even if the deal is was like it was to De Goey a very attractive financial one.

Crouch. A win and a FA to boot. I don't think that he had any other real suitors though apart from the Crows who pissed him off with their treatment of him.

Hill. That is partner wanted to return home and live near Brighton gave us the inside running. That plus we were willing to pay him way overs to get him and trade overs to Freo to get him. Problem with Hill is that while he was a master of using the ball when out in space and under no pressure, that he goes to water and under pressure both in that he fumbles, makes poor decisions and his disposal become poor too and the modern game is all about applying pressure all of the time everywhere. Consequently we recruited Hill too late as he does not suit today's style of football. As it stands the "steak knives" in the deal Acres may well deliver more value to Freo/Carlton that Hill to us.

Hannas. Low trade cost in picks as Swans needed the salary dump, but huge $$$. Quality player, but just could not get on the park. His $$$ helped to ensure we had trouble landing other players.

Jones. A HBF a wanted a chance to play mid, and we gave it too him. Poor disposal but he added aggression and [ace to a vanilla midfield. Worth the punt, but his injuries have made it a flop.

Steele...woohoo we got one. A broken ankle probably helped. No ide why Steele has gone missing this year so much. Hopefully he comes good again next season.


Elite mids is what we most need. If we had one or two, then mids like Crouch and Steele would be more effective. Unfortunately we have Trout to thank for not selecting Petracca, exactly the type of player we need, and have long needed. Rare is the chance to grab a top elite mid. Most of our drafts we have been in the wrong part of the draft. That year we were perfectly positioned.

With Poo we mahe gotten lucky, but jury is out on whether he can become a full time elite mid or not. He will be an elite player for us though.

What about Matt Crouch who probably would probably have been available for next to nothing? Obviously we need elite mids every team does but we also just need contributors that win clearances, we've been waiting for the current crop to get going or get injury free for years and haven't been creative enough imo.

 

[The Punter]

Adam Treloar

1

Adam Treloar

Age

31

Ht

185cm

Wt

84kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

28.2

5star

K

12.9

5star

HB

15.3

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

4.9

5star

CL

4.6

5star

D

30.3

5star

K

16.3

5star

HB

14.0

5star

M

2.0

2star

T

3.3

4star

CL

5.8

5star

D

18.0

5star

K

11.2

4star

HB

6.8

5star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

CL

1.6

4star

was available at the end of 2020... did we kick the tyres? If we did, was there a reason he would have said no?

That's the kind of get we need if we are serious about a mature, elite mid.

Dunkley last year

We certainly kicked the tyres on Kelly and Shiel. Why didn't they come?

 

[bergholt]

Elite mids is what we most need. If we had one or two, then mids like Crouch and Steele would be more effective. Unfortunately we have Trout to thank for not selecting Petracca, exactly the type of player we need, and have long needed. Rare is the chance to grab a top elite mid. Most of our drafts we have been in the wrong part of the draft. That year we were perfectly positioned.

Best way to get elite mids is to draft mids, regardless of where your picks are in the draft. Recent AA squad mids include:

Touk Miller - pick 29
Lachie Neale - pick 58
Chad Warner - pick 39
Shai Bolton - pick 29
Jack Crisp - rookie pick 40
Jack Sinclair - rookie pick 1
Zach Merrett - pick 26
Luke Parker - pick 40
Jack Steele - pick 24
Cam Guthrie - pick 23
Tim Kelly - pick 24
David Mundy - pick 19
Jarryd Lyons - pick 61
Nat Fyfe - pick 20
Sam Menegola - rookie pick 19
Elliot Yeo - pick 30
Shane Edwards - pick 26
Robbie Gray - pick 55
Matt Crouch - pick 23
Dayne Beams - pick 29
Rory Laird - rookie pick 5

Like they're there, you just have to keep taking shots otherwise you're very unlikely to get one.

 

[stfan]

What about Matt Crouch who probably would probably have been available for next to nothing? Obviously we need elite mids every team does but we also just need contributors that win clearances, we've been waiting for the current crop to get going or get injury free for years and haven't been creative enough imo.

The problem with Matt is that he is slow. Most of our mids besides Jones are slow. Gresh used to have more pace, but seems to have lost that, plus 10m off his kicking.

It could well be what we make do with, him or Dow. But it will not help us much in becoming a Top 4 Team.

We need a gun mid who can burst away. It is why the Saints were chasing De Goey.

 

[stfan]

Adam Treloar was available at the end of 2020... did we kick the tyres?

Hannas and Hill $$$$ meant were not in the race.

 

[stfan]

Best way to get elite mids is to draft mids, regardless of where your picks are in the draft. Recent AA squad mids include:

Touk Miller - pick 29
Lachie Neale - pick 58
Shai Bolton - pick 29
Jack Sinclair - rookie pick 1
Zach Merrett - pick 26
Jack Steele - pick 24
Caleb Daniel - pick 46
Cam Guthrie - pick 23
Tim Kelly - pick 24
Nat Fyfe - pick 20
Elliot Yeo - pick 30
Shane Edwards - pick 26
Robbie Gray - pick 55
Matt Crouch - pick 23
Rory Laird - rookie pick 5

Well at least we now seem to have recruiters who can spot talent. For a decade we did not.

 

[pebblesofsand]

He laced the ball out straight to opposition players

It seems to be an area some people don't care about, but our ability to hit targets has been our biggest issue for a decade. It kills our momentum time and time again.

Nobody is questioning his effort

How many of his 36 disposals did he "lace the ball out straight to opposition players"?

How many of his "turnovers"occurred when he won possession of the ball and the only target he had to kick to was a 1 on 2 simply because our forwards don't lead?

Like I've said - there was about about 18 other Saints players from Sunday who deserve criticism way ahead of Wood.

 

[bergholt]

Well at least we now seem to have recruiters who can spot talent. For a decade we did not.

Yeah but that's my point. If your strategy relies on nailing every pick then it's doomed to fail. On the other hand, if you just take mids with most picks then you've got the best possible chance of getting some good ones.

 

[Desperate saint]

Best way to get elite mids is to draft mids, regardless of where your picks are in the draft. Recent AA squad mids include:

Touk Miller - pick 29
Lachie Neale - pick 58
Chad Warner - pick 39
Shai Bolton - pick 29
Jack Crisp - rookie pick 40
Jack Sinclair - rookie pick 1
Zach Merrett - pick 26
Luke Parker - pick 40
Jack Steele - pick 24
Cam Guthrie - pick 23
Tim Kelly - pick 24
David Mundy - pick 19
Jarryd Lyons - pick 61
Nat Fyfe - pick 20
Sam Menegola - rookie pick 19
Elliot Yeo - pick 30
Shane Edwards - pick 26
Robbie Gray - pick 55
Matt Crouch - pick 23
Dayne Beams - pick 29
Rory Laird - rookie pick 5

Like they're there, you just have to keep taking shots otherwise you're very unlikely to get one.

great post

 

[DougalHoward]

Adam Treloar was available at the end of 2020... did we kick the tyres? If we did, was there a reason he would have said no?

That's the kind of get we need if we are serious about a mature, elite mid.

Dunkley last year

We certainly kicked the tyres on Kelly and Shiel. Why didn't they come?

He wanted to come to us from memory

 

[CaptainRisky]

He laced the ball out straight to opposition players

It seems to be an area some people don't care about, but our ability to hit targets has been our biggest issue for a decade. It kills our momentum time and time again.

Nobody is questioning his effort

He just had a bad day kicking , at least he can get it unlike a plenty ATM

 

[The Punter]

He wanted to come to us from memory

I named four players in my post. Who?

 

[Saintbloke]

He just had a bad day kicking , at least he can get it unlike a plenty ATM

Trouble is, we lost by a few goals, sadly Wood and Hill's turnovers probably help set up three Carlton goals. Wood did try hard all day though- a pity a few of his mate's gave up the chase too early in the second half.