Autopsy Round 9, 2021: Hawks get bounced

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[kazzooka]

The likes of TOB and Hartley are not the answers to any question worth asking.

Bringing JOM back in when he wasn't ready doesn't seem like it's something an experimenting team would do. It seems like something a desperate team would do. We played to win.

If the question is who should we give up on, stop playing immediately and then delist at years end then those 2 are the answer.

 

[FactsNotBS]

Oh ffs.

Sorry to single you out but the pissing and moaning is a bit much. 4 or 5 years?? No.

We suck right now but this stuff can be remedied fast, there is plenty of talent on the list.

OMeara, Mitchell, Wingard, Day, Sicily, Hardwick, CJ, Scrimshaw, Impey, Worpel, Kosi, Lewis, TOB will all be at the club in 5 years. DGB, Seamus and Brockman are all promising youngsters. A few good picks this summer and a couple of good recruits from other clubs and we are right back in the hunt. I would be suprised if we were still at the arse end in 2 years time.

I remember looking at Brisbanes list in 2017 and wondering how the fu** they would ever come good. In 2018 they finish 4 from the bottom. That was under 3 years ago.

Im a realistic supporter. Things need a shake up. But the sky-is-falling tantrums ITT are a bit much.

Spot on!


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[Judd2Sewell]

Why has Clarko been so cold on the draft in the last few years? I remember him saying in a presser last year that you can’t rebuild through the draft anymore because its compromised but where did he get this idea? Melbourne, dogs, port and even carlton have a reasonable list built through the “compromised” draft.

I thought at the time it was Graham Wright in his ear and so was pleased when he jumped ship. But does Clarko actually believe this, historically there is only one way - and its through the draft just like he did when he arrived in 2004.

Wright wanted to go to the draft over the years. This was apparently a point of vigorous discussion.

 

[FactsNotBS]

I question the JOM to full forward move for a fair chunk of the game too. Was he not right to play? Or were we just tanking. Getting mauled in the centre and he's sitting in the goalsquare. A real head scratcher of a move.

After being out for a while he was not up to speed. Plus we have to give others a go in the middle to see what they have and if they can add something. Im sure JOM will be at his best in coming weeks.


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[Upgrayedd]

Not much resistance. Shame since a few players had terrific games, only to be overshadowed and erased by overall a poor team effort. Said this multiple times as well, we can't carry 5 defenders who have no creativity. I can live with Jiath full sprint after breaking a line and turning the ball over 80m down the field. The missed 20m chipped kicks that turn into 50/50 ball and turnovers are team confidence killers

 

[Scissor4life]

We are terrible to watch. Plain and simple.

The game plan of chipping bloody wide all the time is horrendous

Hartley and Frost tripping over themselves, giving away free kicks and then both turning
the ball over with rubbish disposal is not Hawthorn.

Frost gives his all which I love but gives away 3 goals a game with rubbish disposal.

Harley kicks it 60 metres yet will not pull the trigger and try’s to pin point passes 20 metres away amongst a heap of players.

We are the worst team in the comp at trying to kick the ball in. We wait, wait, wait and then don’t even use the free space to play on and gain an extra 20 metres of ground. Who is teaching this rubbish? Hardwick always looks in slow motion. Get the fricken ball quickly play on from FB and pump it to centre wing mate where we atleast can have a few talls lined up to compete. Instead we end up chipping the ball to the back pocket and are caught with no options.....

If we come home with some sort of career saving individual performances and again don’t cut the dead wood free and end up with pick 4 or 5 and don’t make the hard calls needed I will be spewing.

Give me pick 1 and the bloody spoon.
Trade out a player for another first round pick around 10-15.

Pick 1, 12 19 and 20 would be superb. Add to that Day, DGB, CJ and we finally have some quality on our list we can watch come through together.

100%

 

[Yardie]

The likes of TOB and Hartley are not the answers to any question worth asking.

I'll slightly disagree on TOB. Kosi was deemed a failure down back and looking at getting delisted. Sammy thought let's try him up forward as a roll of the dice and he looks to have found his spot. Let's do the same for TOB. We need depth in the KPD.

Also opens up more time for the youngsters forward.

 

[Spursfan]

Why has Clarko been so cold on the draft in the last few years? I remember him saying in a presser last year that you can’t rebuild through the draft anymore because its compromised but where did he get this idea? Melbourne, dogs, port and even carlton have a reasonable list built through the “compromised” draft.

I thought at the time it was Graham Wright in his ear and so was pleased when he jumped ship. But does Clarko actually believe this, historically there is only one way - and its through the draft just like he did when he arrived in 2004.

All those teams have been bottom 4 at some stage for years (in Melbourne's case almost a decade).

People want the fruits of a rebuild without actually going through the pain of one.

 

[Billyc]

All those teams have been bottom 4 at some stage for years (in Melbourne's case almost a decade).

People want the fruits of a rebuild without actually going through the pain of one.

We are now 2 years bottom 4, and you would be very ambitious to bet against it next year. We are going through the pain now

 

[FactsNotBS]

This is the type of thinking that will get us into trouble again... Clarko keeps saying it can turn quickly.... that we should look at Sydney and Richmond... well I am sorry Clarko but they are both better coaches than you...This whole "it can turn quick" is what's going to lead us to picking up more 26+ aged free agents and trading our early picks... NO THANKS!... understand where you stand and commit to a rebuild finally!

Better coaches than Clarko? Really? 4 premierships not good enough for you?

Our list profile is different right now and guess who taught Hardwick, Simpson, Beverage, Ratten, Fagan, Cameron, not to mention Uze and several other assistants.

Dont see any disciples of Horse being any good (Dew especially) or any emerging coaches from Dimma.

Clarko coaches the entire club and is in another stratosphere compared to others. We are lucky to have him. Our young talent will come through. We aren’t far away. I have full faith in Clarko!


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[Spursfan]

We are now 2 years bottom 4, and you would be very ambitious to bet against it next year. We are going through the pain now

We sure are, but to me at least its not unexpected

 

[Slow Love]

I'm not sure what those two sentences mean in the context. Please explain.

I'm not sure why it's hard to understand, or why you're making such hard work of a simple point. I'm saying that the personnel when we bottomed out in 2004 was superior to what we currently have.

 

[FactsNotBS]

2004 player pool that finished 2nd bottom included:

Peter Everitt
Nick Holland
Jonathan Hay
Rayden Tallis
Mark Williams
Sam Mitchell
Shane Crawford
Chance Bateman
Joel Smith
Nathan Lonie
Luke Hodge
Rick Ladson (raking kick inside 50!)
Ben Dixon
Richie Vandenberg (led when no-one else was ready)
Nathan Thompson (so promising but cut down by depression)
Trent Croad
John Barker
Brad Sewell
Mark Graham
Angelo Lekkas
and Michael Osbourne, James Morrissey's natural heir

So much undeveloped talent there. I feel like Moore, Cousins, CJ and Kosi are up there and Hardwick, Scrimshaw, Day, Sicily and Impey can play a part going forward but for now it's years in the wilderness

I think the point is that Clarko came in and turned the team and club into a Premiership winning machine. With our current list profile and some good recruiting, he can do it again. Compare this to Carlton, Gold Coast, GWS, etc...incredible talent wasted and no better than us today! We will be in the wilderness if we don’t recognize just how good Clarko is and get behind him. Have faith Hawks fans!!




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[Slow Love]

I think the point is that Clarko came in and turned the team and club into a Premiership winning machine. With our current list profile and some good recruiting, he can do it again. Compare this to Carlton, Gold Coast, GWS, etc...incredible talent wasted and no better than us today! We will be in the wilderness if we don’t recognize just how good Clarko is and get behind him. Have faith Hawks fans!!

Half the job is the recruiting, and that's where we've fallen in a hole this time around.

Just my opinion though, and I'll be happy to be wrong.

 

[FactsNotBS]

Don't know what else to say anymore. The coaches clearly don't know a way out. Neither do the fans. The list is just sh*t and we have to accept it. I've pretty much given up and am looking to the draft.

I think it's worse than 2004. That was the worst I'd seen in following Hawthorn for 40 years. But I think this is worse. Today was a dark day for the club. No other way to skin it. Whether it's rock bottom or not, we'll soon find out.

Heat is on Clarko now. Fair and square. The buck stops with him. Fascinated to see how this plays out.

The disappointment of a loss doesnt make inferior coaches better than Clarko. Think about who he has taught to coach and how he has made hundreds better people. Look at what he did with the list profile in 2006 vs what Carlton, GWS and Gold Coast have done with the abundance of talent they got! Underestimating Clarko would be the worst mistake we could make! Have faith.


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[CHUBBSS]

A day after the game and The conspiracist in me like to think that this is all part of the plan, Clarko is manufacturing multiple bottom 4 finishes by appointing senior players to stand in captains as he create a dreadful game plan with spurts of brilliance just to check if the players still have it and also make sure north don’t get a priority pick on the back of a loss in the spoonbowl. The failings in the middle are now officially mind boggling, but most of all is our stubbornness with moving the ball from the backline from a kick out.

But then their is reality and that feels a bit worst so I’ll stick with the above

 

[Mercy Seat]

This is what a rebuild looks like. I remember a lot of people wanting Clarko gone in 06 after another belting. There was talk of the game plan and bombing it into forwards and fringe players who “aren’t gonna be in our next flag”. You can look up posts on this very forum.

Rebuilds are painful and they involve good promising bursts followed by losses like yesterday where you feel like we are in complete no mans land. People wanted Dimma gone for the first 7 years of his coaching career. Unfortunately, not many coaches look great in a rebuild. It’s not all one smooth line going upwards.

I said at the start of the year, we’ll have moments of some thrilling wins, some beltings, and games where it feels like 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. That’s just the nature of a side that is in transition.

There’s an argument to be made for more kids, but the only couple that could really come in are Brockman, Finn and maybe Downie. From what I’ve seen watching VFL, none of these guys are set to come in and have anything close to the impact Day had. Unfortunately the cupboard is mostly bare, in part due to injuries. Hopefully Day and DGB can bring some optimism later in the season.

 

[Jazzfan]

I think the point is that Clarko came in and turned the team and club into a Premiership winning machine. With our current list profile and some good recruiting, he can do it again. Compare this to Carlton, Gold Coast, GWS, etc...incredible talent wasted and no better than us today! We will be in the wilderness if we don’t recognize just how good Clarko is and get behind him. Have faith Hawks fans!!




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I hate that I am saying this. But it's better for Clarko and the club he moves on. It needs to be as dignified an exit as possible and we should all remember him for what he delivered us. But he is the problem right now imo.

We need seperation from the decisions he has made and as a club aknowledge it was a total cluster ****, one after another, since 2016 that has led to where we are today. I'm not sure he can easily pivot, as that will require him to accept his fault in all of this. Which would be a really tough thing for him to do.

The place needs a fresh start. You can only live off the past for so long. Since 2016 we have made list management decisions that you shouldn't survive from.

 

[drewand]

We are terrible to watch. Plain and simple.

The game plan of chipping bloody wide all the time is horrendous

Hartley and Frost tripping over themselves, giving away free kicks and then both turning
the ball over with rubbish disposal is not Hawthorn.

Frost gives his all which I love but gives away 3 goals a game with rubbish disposal.

Harley kicks it 60 metres yet will not pull the trigger and try’s to pin point passes 20 metres away amongst a heap of players.

We are the worst team in the comp at trying to kick the ball in. We wait, wait, wait and then don’t even use the free space to play on and gain an extra 20 metres of ground. Who is teaching this rubbish? Hardwick always looks in slow motion. Get the fricken ball quickly play on from FB and pump it to centre wing mate where we atleast can have a few talls lined up to compete. Instead we end up chipping the ball to the back pocket and are caught with no options.....

If we come home with some sort of career saving individual performances and again don’t cut the dead wood free and end up with pick 4 or 5 and don’t make the hard calls needed I will be spewing.

Give me pick 1 and the bloody spoon.
Trade out a player for another first round pick around 10-15.

Pick 1, 12 19 and 20 would be superb. Add to that Day, DGB, CJ and we finally have some quality on our list we can watch come through together.

This is so spot on re the kick-ins, yesterday and all year. We almost always go 20 to the pocket and invite pressure on ourselves. The next possession we generally give it away. Conversely, we are so bad at defending opposition kick-ins, there have been a fair few coast to coast goals conceded this year

 

[Kenyan]

The midfield was smashed yesterday - Tom Mitchell 3 contested possessions for the game WTF?
Is he injured?

 

[Kanga Commando]

This is so spot on re the kick-ins, yesterday and all year. We almost always go 20 to the pocket and invite pressure on ourselves. The next possession we generally give it away. Conversely, we are so bad at defending opposition kick-ins, there have been a fair few coast to coast goals conceded this year

Yep. Worst of all, we have good options for our kick ins. BigBoy, Lewis, Kosi and TOB ( no really ) should all be presenting separately for these these kick ins. I have seen them do it ( well ) once in a while - and it does work...

 

[Gaston]

I hate that I am saying this. But it's better for Clarko and the club he moves on. It needs to be as dignified an exit as possible and we should all remember him for what he delivered us. But he is the problem right now imo.

We need seperation from the decisions he has made and as a club aknowledge it was a total cluster fu**, one after another, since 2016 that has led to where we are today. I'm not sure he can easily pivot, as that will require him to accept his fault in all of this. Which would be a really tough thing for him to do.

The place needs a fresh start. You can only live off the past for so long. Since 2016 we have made list management decisions that you shouldn't survive from.

Look at it from this perspective, you are a business owner, Clarko the senior manager, CEO.
Was great for an extended period, sales, exposure and other business KPI's were all progressing in the right direction.
Your business was a leader, innovative and the envy of the sector.
Employees and future employees wanted to work under you.

The market has no changed and your business is suffering, failing to an extent.
Do you rely on your current manager/CEO or look for change to redevelop business growth?

Others will argue but I seel parallels from this scenario.
Don't feel bad for uttering those words, I am sure similar conversations are being had inside the walls of Waverley.

 

[The hands of stone]

We are terrible to watch. Plain and simple.

The game plan of chipping bloody wide all the time is horrendous

Hartley and Frost tripping over themselves, giving away free kicks and then both turning
the ball over with rubbish disposal is not Hawthorn.

Frost gives his all which I love but gives away 3 goals a game with rubbish disposal.

Harley kicks it 60 metres yet will not pull the trigger and try’s to pin point passes 20 metres away amongst a heap of players.

We are the worst team in the comp at trying to kick the ball in. We wait, wait, wait and then don’t even use the free space to play on and gain an extra 20 metres of ground. Who is teaching this rubbish? Hardwick always looks in slow motion. Get the fricken ball quickly play on from FB and pump it to centre wing mate where we atleast can have a few talls lined up to compete. Instead we end up chipping the ball to the back pocket and are caught with no options.....

If we come home with some sort of career saving individual performances and again don’t cut the dead wood free and end up with pick 4 or 5 and don’t make the hard calls needed I will be spewing.

Give me pick 1 and the bloody spoon.
Trade out a player for another first round pick around 10-15.

Pick 1, 12 19 and 20 would be superb. Add to that Day, DGB, CJ and we finally have some quality on our list we can watch come through together.

Cant argue with any of that tbh

 

[Kanga Commando]

Don't know what else to say anymore. The coaches clearly don't know a way out. Neither do the fans. The list is just sh*t and we have to accept it. I've pretty much given up and am looking to the draft.

I think it's worse than 2004. That was the worst I'd seen in following Hawthorn for 40 years. But I think this is worse. Today was a dark day for the club. No other way to skin it. Whether it's rock bottom or not, we'll soon find out.

Heat is on Clarko now. Fair and square. The buck stops with him. Fascinated to see how this plays out.

Fair comment.

Our most pressing issue is leadership - on field and off.