Saints Are Finished in 2011 & Beyond

[L_W_P]

Good points re: Roo and BJ. Both seem to be going through the motions. You can see that they have given everything over the last 2 years and there is just nothing left in the tank. Both need to get their hair cut too. They look like complete tools with those half fade mohawk, emo marine, flat top with a fringe... no idea wtf to call it, just short back and sides for both of them!

Roo has been a liability since he got injured. We played so well without him but as soon as he came back he was our only target. I think we would be better off with Riewoldt as a midfielder. Hard to double team him on the ball and it would make us less predictable going forward.

Our biggest problem though is out kick ins. We must be the slowest team from a kick in across the entire AFL. No urgency to move the ball on before the opposition set up. Always short to the pocket. Always looking for Roo on the second kick. With most other teams there is the feeling they could go coast to coast. Not with the Saints.

I also think we should trade for a ruckman. Not sure what it would cost but Maric/Seaby/Minson would all help. McEvoy is getting killed out there and without Hayes (Not 100% certain he will come back) we just can't win the centre square battle. Big Ben will be good, in time, but at 21 he's just not ready to be the number 1 ruck. I'd rather see a more mature ruckman to start and have Ben play at FF. Kosi back to the 2's as pure depth.

Cripps showed something. Would like to see Tommy Walsh, Aaron Sipposs, Nick Winmar all get 4-5 games this year to show something. Not sure what Tom Lynch did to get on Ross' bad side either.

If Ross is going to stay on then we need to put a plan in place and stick with it. Throwing Gilbert, Gwilt, Goddard, Blake etc from end to end every week can't be good for them. Pick the backline. Pick the forwardline. Keep them there and let them develop.

It was so close for us the last 2 years, now it seems as far away as it's ever been for this group.....

 

[bulletproof]

The Andrew Lovett saga really cost them I believe.

 

[wian]

i honestly can see the saints only winning 1 out of their next 4 with carlton, hawthorn, melbourne and then freo in perth - then the dogs i think after that

they will beat melbourne , but that will be about it i think

 

[Murraj1966]

St Kilda in 2003 had an incompetent coach, an incompetent board, no injury management and a shithouse training facility.

Now we have a great coach, a great board, one of the best injury management teams around headed by Dave Mission, and a brand new facility, our first since basically 1965.

If the Saints start again, we'll be fine. Rebuilding and challenging is the circle of football.

 

[Murraj1966]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

1997 grand final



2009 grand final

Count the years.

Ok obviously, we could have made a grand final earlier than 2009, but a rebuild to get to a grand final is a massive ask. It's a probably a 10 year job.

2000 Wooden Spoon
2004 First real crack

Once the team is up and having attempts at playing off for the flag the rebuild is over, and it's all about getting the team to the big dance and winning. You could argue we rebuilt in 2007-8 to get a team that challenged immensely in 2009/10.

 

[damuzzdu]

In the dying minutes of the game against the Crows in which they will lose, it is hard to believe that the Saints were Grand Finalists last year.

Apart from the third quarter, they have been seriously woeful in all facets of the game.

What is the most disturbing fact is that Gilbert, Dawson, Baker & to a lesser extent Schneider, are just sub-standard kicks of the football.

Dawson & Gilbert also make terrible decisions under pressure and invariably either get outmarked or give away a soft & undisciplined free kick.

Every time Baker took a mark, he kicked backwards, he does not have the wherewithall to want to kick forward at all so all of the opposition teams will know that and play to it.

Their ruck dept. is sadly inferior to the other clubs and their reliance on the big guns (Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, Reiwoldt & Milne) to get them over the line is now costing them games. Those players listed are very good in their own right but tonight they were pretty poor overall and when they are missing, there is no-one else to pick up the slack.

It's really sad to see this team perform at the level they are right now and although they will pinch a handful of wins over the remaining 18 rounds, it will not be enough for them to play finals.

They need to swing the axe and make some swift but calculated changes to their playing list if they want to make a quick recovery because the current group has had their time in the premiership hunt. They need to clear out some of the deadwood on their list and replace them with some young enthusiastic players from the draft.

I know Saints supporters will want to attack me for speaking my mind here but if they are honest with themselves, they'll agree with me on most of these points.

Good post.

The Saints bottom 6 players are really quite poor and we showed them up in GF#2. They rely to much on Goddard, Mine, Riewoldt, Dal Santo, Hayes, etc to get them to a winning position each week.

As you said when they go missing there no-one stepping up to take their place.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

Has Carlton, Hawthorn, Melbourne, Freo (away) and Collingwood in next 5 weeks.

So most likely at R11 they will 2-1-7 and will be unlikely to make 8 yet alone the top 4.

To win matches a team must be able to kick more than 9 goals against quality opposition.

St. KIlda starting to look like the Collingwood team in 2004 after they lost 2 GF in 02/03.

Probanly will need a strong recruitment of youth over the next 2 drafts and start to promote playing youth in 2011 when season looks all but gone.

Interesting point you make here - It really does remind me of that...

Losing two grand finals (or not winning three) has got to take a lot out of a team, throw in the pre-season from hell, Lenny's injury and most of our players being out of form and its not hard to see how we got in this mess.

Carlton, next week, please be merciful.

 

[prankmonkey]

I also think we should trade for a ruckman. Not sure what it would cost but Maric/Seaby/Minson would all help. McEvoy is getting killed out there and without Hayes (Not 100% certain he will come back) we just can't win the centre square battle. Big Ben will be good, in time, but at 21 he's just not ready to be the number 1 ruck. I'd rather see a more mature ruckman to start and have Ben play at FF. Kosi back to the 2's as pure depth.

you can have maric

 

[Kruzer]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

Well, the circle turns. We've been up since 2004 had 2 bloody good cracks and couldn't do it.

Actually 3 cracks...

 

[Nebula1971]

Riewoldt has looked disiniterested all year and his poor performances every week are evidence of his.

It all came down to this.

I find it amusing that this is constantly bought up. We will never know if this bounce would have resulted in a saints win. What's to say the Pies couldn't have got a quick clearance and scored a goal. Look how much time is left on the clock. It isn't as if the siren went straight after the bounce.

How many bounces during a game can affect a team from scoring? It happens consistently throughout every game, yet this bounce is talked about like it was some sort of miracle.

GF2 demonstrated who the worthy winner was regardless of bounce.

On topic, Saints are in trouble this year. Hayes such a massive loss. They can regroup, but their game plan needs to change right away.

 

[damuzzdu]

i honestly can see the saints only winning 1 out of their next 4 with carlton, hawthorn, melbourne and then freo in perth - then the dogs i think after that

they will beat melbourne , but that will be about it i think

Nope they have Collingwood after the Freo game.

 

[CharacterFirst]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

2000 Wooden Spoon
2004 First real crack

Once the team is up and having attempts at playing off for the flag the rebuild is over, and it's all about getting the team to the big dance and winning. You could argue we rebuilt in 2007-8 to get a team that challenged immensely in 2009/10.

Yeah. Na.

It will take the Saints 7-10 years I think.

They have done their mini rebuilds as you say. They don't have much young talent on the current list. They will automatically start at least one year back on the rebuild due to GWS. Their current stars look like they may have given all they have.

I guess they could trade some of their stars - but that further erodes club culture and loyalty etc.

I don't think free agency will rebuild a club, it may - may - top some clubs up. I think rebuilding from 2013 (due to GWS) will mean you might be ready by 2020, but GC and GWS may be dominating at that time.

As a Geelong supporter I know some of what you are feeling - long waits, near misses, hope dashed etc. I hope they rebound quickly, but it looks bleak for the Saints.

 

[damuzzdu]

Interesting point you make here - It really does remind me of that...

Losing two grand finals (or not winning three) has got to take a lot out of a team, throw in the pre-season from hell, Lenny's injury and most of our players being out of form and its not hard to see how we got in this mess.

Carlton, next week, please be merciful.

I recall 2004

We lost to Richmond in R1 they had finished 13/14 in 2003 - sorry that should say thrashed, by R4 we were 2nd last and last after R5 and the season was gone. We plucked the odd win here or there, but the writing was on the wall that we had to re-build. The re-build has been up and down, never in a straight line.

 

[WaltzingMatera]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

2000 Wooden Spoon
2004 First real crack

Once the team is up and having attempts at playing off for the flag the rebuild is over, and it's all about getting the team to the big dance and winning. You could argue we rebuilt in 2007-8 to get a team that challenged immensely in 2009/10.

You're not going to get the huge amount of top draft picks this time.

 

[gravy1]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

The Collingwood model post 2003 is pretty interesting. Reminds me so much of the Saints position currently. 2004 we were mentally shot, went downhill fast etc. However, in terms of youth coming through/drafting it's even more similar.

If you look at Collingwood's team today (or last year), only ONE non father/son pick pre-2005 is still on the list (Dane Swan, coincidentally). Ie, we drafted like absolute s@&# every year prior to 2005. We recognised this, got Derek Hine on board, and got Pendlebury/Thomas/Nathan Brown/Ben Reid/Chris Dawes/Beams/Sidebottom etc.

Though not all were part of it, we made finals in 2006 and a prelim in 2007, losing to Geelong by five points. And then a GF in 2010. So though the period between GFs was seven years, we were back in finals within four, and made finals every year subsequently, with several top 4 finishes. All this with horrific drafting pre-2005, somewhat similar to St Kilda's position now.

 

[Korn]

Riewoldt has looked disiniterested all year and his poor performances every week are evidence of his.

It all came down to this.

Milne ran harder at the ball = Premiership

 

[Bring back Moloney]

Go back 6 weeks ago, and everyones opinion was that the Saints are poised for a huge crack at this years flag, and those old, slow Geelong Cats were finished......

Well I can't tell you how much it pleases me to see how this year has started. Geelong are a champion team, with a ton of courage and heart.

St Kilda are, barring a few, gutless and lack the killer instinct it takes to win a flag! They relied upon a strategic game plan for their success, but that game plan is now their undoing.

Bet they could use a Mitch Duncan or Daniel Menzel right about now!

 

[Chief Ten Beers]

Apart from a couple, no real kids either. Bad position to be in with the Giants on the scene.

 

[Strahany]

I'm hoping this is the wake up call Ross finally hears. This game truly exposed players that shouldn't be playing (not that they haven't already been exposed).

• McQualter -A joke of a player, near useless. If he was an in-and-under player, then the lack of skills would be acceptable. Suffice to say, he's soft as well. Needs to go.
• Dawson - DEFINITELY NEEDS TO GO.
• Baker - Biggest instigator of backwards piss-farting with the ball. Needs to go.
• Jones - Really suffering now with the sub-rule. Tagging isn't as effective this year in addition to losing his tagging form. Skills aren't good enough to keep his spot now that he cannot tag properly. Needs to go.
• Dempster - A bit of a nothing player. Nothing overly wrong with him, but he doesn't seem like improving. Winmar or Walsh would slip into his position fairly well. It won't take long before their ability will match Dempster's, and they should further improve. Needs to go.

This is drastic, but we really need to make a big change. Ross got on the right track by playing Johnson and Cripps (albeit as a result of injury). We can't get in any worse of a position, and action needs to be taken.
Don't just replace out of form players with other players that have just been dropped (i.e Baker, I don't believe he was injured when he was cut). Replace them with younger players who have something to offer.

I see it like this; younger players on our list with no (or very few) games to their name need to be played. Period. These younger players should replace the aforementioned strugglers. They'll be roughly on the same skill level (some players may take a couple of games) as these dead weights, and can only improve. Bringing in these players could well inject some quality ability into our side and drive us to some victories. Even if these new players don't help us win and are just as bad, they can't make us any worse than we already are and at least we will be starting to develop a new side for the future.

 

[Scodog10]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

If you look at Collingwood's team today (or last year), only ONE non father/son pick pre-2005 is still on the list (Dane Swan, coincidentally). Ie, we drafted like absolute s@&# every year prior to 2005. We recognised this, got Derek Hine on board, and got Pendlebury/Thomas/Nathan Brown/Ben Reid/Chris Dawes/Beams/Sidebottom etc.

Didak (2000), Davis(1999), Johnson(1999), O'Brien(2004) and Maxwell(2002) all say hi!!!

 

[Shane_Mag]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

They have been up for awhile so I slide was to come but for it to be so drastic is interesting. I think their premiership window is shut again.

 

[Ron The Bear]

This is drastic, but we really need to make a big change.

The way I see it, St.Kilda has been such a regimented side that it will be difficult to make wholesale changes mid-season without the gameplan falling apart.

Thought they had one more crack at it this year, but it does look to be season over.

 

[Blue and Silver]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

I kinda picked it early on. I just think the players have lost a bit of that fire, and especially without Hayes they give up too easy

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

Didak (2000), Davis(1999), Johnson(1999), O'Brien(2004) and Maxwell(2002) all say hi!!!

Could probably add Tarrant to that group. I'm going to wait and see how St Kilda goes in Round 7. If Carlton puts them away, then I'm ready to call it curtains.

 

[Defacto]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

Saints need to cull and rebuild. Cut the dead branches to promote growth.

Retire
Baker
Blake
Gardiner

Trade/delist
Mcqualter
Eddy
Dawson
Dempster
Peake
Polo
Kozi
Gilbert
Heyne
Clarke

On notice
Gram
Jones
Gamble
Lynch