Saints Are Finished in 2011 & Beyond

[ize_]

Saints are gone for this year, but not necessarily 2012. It can turn around quickly. They don't need to get rid of a gun, that's silly, they need to clear out a lot though - Baker, Peake, Gamble, Polo, Clarke, and have a really good look at McQualter, Blake, Schneider and Kosi. These players need to be replaced with youth - they are hardly going to be worse. St Kilda's bottom 6-7 may as well be young and enthusiastic rather than aging and slow. Steven, Cripps, Winmar, Smith, Heyne and Lynch should be playing most weeks along with Stanley and Armitage. You can still have your old firm - Goddard, Roo, Hayes, Montagna, Milne, Dal Santo, Gram, Fisher, your mid-rangers - Gilbert, Dawson, Gwilt, McEvoy, and make up the rest of the team with decent youth. I reckon it's the only thing left for St Kilda to do if they want to have one more crack with this core group, and it can be done.

 

[Oh Darling]

St Kilda in 2003 had an incompetent coach, an incompetent board, no injury management and a shithouse training facility.

Now we have a great coach, a great board, one of the best injury management teams around headed by Dave Mission, and a brand new facility, our first since basically 1965.

If the Saints start again, we'll be fine. Rebuilding and challenging is the circle of football.

The problem is more one of culture.. and St Kilda has a losing culture and that can be very hard... almost impossible to change. You've basically been up since 2004 and had multiple chances to win a flag. Hell I remember in 2005 watching you throw away a prelim final against Sydney... 6 years later and you were still in a Grand Final and still can't do it. It's a culture issue.

Take it from me... when the slide starts (like it did for us after 2006) it can hit very quickly and you can go from premiers to bottom of the ladder in a few years.

I expect the West Coast Eagles are looking with this squad we have now of making a Grand Final in 3-4 years but that would mean 2015-2016. That's 10 years since we made the last one... and that would be an AMAZING effort but that's because we have a winning culture.

Other sides who have winning cultures take years to win Grand Finals... eg: Collingwood (20 years), Essendon (10 years and counting), Carlton (15 years and counting), West Coast (5 years and counting)

To suggest St Kilda who have one of the worst winning cultures imaginable... can turn it around and win a flag in 6 years is ridiculous. I suspect it will be 15-20 years before you have another legitimate chance... and that's best case... given you have only won 1 flag in your entire history and that was 45 years ago.

 

[dunno4]

The difference between the Saints and Geelong is that the Saints aren't able to bring in any decent young players. Geelong have brought in Duncan and Menzel.

As Paul Roos said before last years grand final it is the bottom 6 players that make or break a team. Turnovers are the game killer.

Oh and another suggestion, raffle Dawson's spot in the team at the social club. Will raise money and even if my mum won you would be better off

 

[CF]

The difference between the Saints and Geelong is that the Saints aren't able to bring in any decent young players. Geelong have brought in Duncan, Hunt, Christensen, and Menzel.

As Paul Roos said before last years grand final it is the bottom 6 players that make or break a team. Turnovers are the game killer.

Oh and another suggestion, raffle Dawson's spot in the team at the social club. Will raise money and even if my mum won you would be better off

corrected for accuracy

When both Geelong & Saints were on the rise everyone thought the Saints would take all before them anthat Geelong had no stars, it was Geelong that did.
When this season started everyone thought Geelong would fall away quickly and it was the Saints that did it.

 

[mcgarnacle]

the circumstances which will be imposed on some really good serviceable but older SK players in the next year or so is going to highlight what's wrong with the AFL recruiting system. You'd think a few of their players will be forced into a premature retirement from AFL football, simply because of their age.

a decent FA system which isnt as onerous to qualify for as the one the AFL announced a few weeks ago would make it easier for a few of their players to continue their careers at other clubs, as well as potential to speed up a turnaround/rebuild for clubs without having to go through the 'rock bottom' stage of the cycle.

 

[bali-dog]

its a tough old game..i really feel for reiwoldt esp. he's given his all for so long..wouldve been so right to see him hold a cup up..got so very close, it must weigh on you,or affect your attitude...

but you just feel that their window has closed,and this team no longer has the desire to do it all again,and again..so its either a quick fix (with a lot of coach smarts,or a new coach,and some young talent), or the long haul. a sad story really.

 

[vjknight]

2000 Wooden Spoon
2004 First real crack

Once the team is up and having attempts at playing off for the flag the rebuild is over, and it's all about getting the team to the big dance and winning. You could argue we rebuilt in 2007-8 to get a team that challenged immensely in 2009/10.

you could, but its a losing argument. what game makers were introduced then ? none of what id call the core group - they were assembled pre 2004 and are fast approaching their use by date. who are stkilda's 19-23yo's that every other club would love to have on their list. not a list clogger, really want them ?

They won't be likely to make a difference, but at least at the start of 2012 they'll have the better part of a season under their belt and be ready to have a real crack.

We should trade a player to GWS and get some prime kids, and/or maybe even a decent player or two from other clubs. IIRC, Goddard, Montagna and Dal Santo are all contracted. I doubt we'd break a contract for a trade. The only decent players we have that may be uncontracted are Fisher and Gilbert. The former is a valuable player, but trading him may be the big step we need to take. The latter is playing terribly and unless he can improve, will only be worth peanuts on the trade table.

Any players on the saints list the could be considered valuable by GWS and are eligible for trade?

they can trade contracted players (i think), as long as the receiving club is prepared to continue that same contract. BUT who on that list is seen as desirable to GWS to be a fellow premiership player in 2016 - NO ONE.
GWS are not gonna waste their time picking up any 27yo+ types who wont be there amongst their best in 2016. and the saints have no one young enough.

corrected for accuracy

When both Geelong & Saints were on the rise everyone thought the Saints would take all before them anthat Geelong had no stars, it was Geelong that did.
When this season started everyone thought Geelong would fall away quickly and it was the Saints that did it.

everyone ? a large number yes, maybe even a majority who gave an opinion, but not everyone, and certainly not me. IIRC, i rated geelong 2nd or 3rd, saints 7th. why ? because despite having similiar age issues, one team had a winning culture, has tasted success and still desires it, as this year shows (see hawks 1991). and despite the departures of coach & captain, this multiple premiership winning squad was a team, not a few individual stars holding up an otherwise unimpressive list.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Oh well...and they still have nothing to show for it!
It seems JE was right!

 

[Frogkase]

We'll call this your building phase.. honestly a couple of intelligent choices in the drafts for 2012 and you never know what could happen.

 

[Yabba]

I they get their drafting right, including rookie drafts they may be able to have one last crack. Look at Freo last year, Essendon this year, both were thought of as ordinary sides going into the season, brought in mature rookies to go with some talented kids and they are looking in reasonably good shape.

Freo are similar in that they had a couple of high quality players in Pav and Sandilands. Saints have to get the draft right this year, no excuses every club is finding players from rookie lists and late picks they need to do that this year, not pick up blokes like Polo who couldn't crack games in poor teams.

 

[Yabba]

I they get their drafting right, including rookie drafts they may be able to have one last crack. Look at Freo last year, Essendon this year, both were thought of as ordinary sides going into the season, brought in mature rookies to go with some talented kids and they are looking in reasonably good shape.

Freo are similar in that they had a couple of high quality players in Pav and Sandilands. Saints have to get the draft right this year, no excuses every club is finding players from rookie lists and late picks they need to do that this year, not pick up blokes like Polo who couldn't crack games in poor teams.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

the circumstances which will be imposed on some really good serviceable but older SK players in the next year or so is going to highlight what's wrong with the AFL recruiting system. You'd think a few of their players will be forced into a premature retirement from AFL football, simply because of their age.

The good ones will stay, the crap ones will go.

Its nothing to do with the system....they have just recruited badly.

 

[Xtreme]

Some tough decisions should be EASIER by the end of the season. The off season did no favors, that and 3 grand final defeats would be detrimental to the players motivation.

Personally i am glad that they are currently in a heap, gives another team the chance to shine (fingers crossed it's Hawthorn ).

 

[ndot]

maybe i'm delusional, but if they get their confidence up somehow i can still see them scraping into the 8.

and if they do, then i can see them being the side that no one wants to face in the finals.

they do look a LONG way off the pace right now though. seems like they really have to battle for each goal.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

It's culture.

Take a look at a club like Hawthorn compared to St Kilda. As has been pointed out in another thread, Hawthorn have had this knack over it's time to make the most of it's opportunities ( 2008 being an example ). We came from nowhere to win that flag. Played in 15 GFs and won 10 of them.

St Kilda haven't won a GF in how many attempts? What 5 is it now and 1 out of 8 total. They seem to continually lose big games they should win. It's like the Dogs losing 9 prelims in a row. There is simply something wrong at these clubs for that to be happening.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Some tough decisions should be EASIER by the end of the season.

If you wait for tough decisions to be easy, then its too late.

StKilda should have for example traded Kozi years ago when he had some currency.

 

[rofltown]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

I won't attack you, because you're correct.

It's really sad though. We were so close, but now the next chance at a flag looks to be another 10-15 years away.

When Riewoldt and Goddard are long retired...i think those guys see the futility in it which is why they're both playing with absolutely zero desire this year.

Riewoldt has been particularly bad in 2011.

Well, the circle turns. We've been up since 2004 had 2 bloody good cracks and couldn't do it.

Realistically, you could challenge again in 4-5 years. 15 years is pushing it!

That being said it's only round 6 and a lot can change in a month of football.

 

[captain peanut]

If you wait for tough decisions to be easy, then its too late.

StKilda should have for example traded Kozi years ago when he had some currency.

couldn't agree more. and to think that over the last few weeks people were saying he was being missed by the saints and would improve the side when he gets back. he is a completely unfulfilled talent who apart from that exceptionally hot period back in about 04 or 05 has never been more than an inconsistent bit player

the saints now have to make some big decisions with their team development and trading come season's end. for instance, riewoldt will be 29 by the time 2012 starts. he will not be around long enough to be part of the next st kilda push for a flag. as much as the saints love him, what would the gold coast give for him to be their new glamour boy for the next 3 or 4 years? some very high draft choices would be avail to the saints and they should avail themselves of the opportunity as part of the required rebuild

as for the rest of this season, what is the point of continuiing to play the likes of blake milne and schneider as they, like riewoldt, won't be a significant part of any rebuild. yes the saints might end up winning 10 games instead of 6 or 7 if they keep playing. but who really cares? get some games into the untried youngsters on the list and see what they've got

i remember collingwood's inglorious drop in 04/05 and how they handled it. the likes of j cloke kinnear walker mckee lokan woewodin steinfort betheras were cast aside. great warriors but it was decided they simply weren't up to taking the pies any further. some of the young draftees and rookies given their chance in 04/05 included the likes of maxwell obrien cloke shaw swan. it was bold and of course there were numerous youngsters tried who weren't up to it. butit was aprocess that found 5 or 6 genuine stars who ended up playing in the club's next flag

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Blake and Baker are the first two I'd be sending back to the VFL permanently.

Personally I'd be putting Gilbert up for trade.

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

corrected for accuracy

When both Geelong & Saints were on the rise everyone thought the Saints would take all before them anthat Geelong had no stars, it was Geelong that did.
When this season started everyone thought Geelong would fall away quickly and it was the Saints that did it.

Exactly its why losing Thompson wasn't such a cataclysm event that some ppl were predicting, would those players have gotten a game last week if Thompson was still there?

 

[Rik E Boy]

Unless Ross Lyon can prove that he can coach to a the new game styles he should be gone. His general demanour is bad for the club. Club is need of some serious image makeover even before it can work on its footy department

This. If the top liners are 'disinterested' as many say then it is the job of the coaches panel to install the desire, belief and motivation levels when things get tough.

Not all the blame should go to Lyon though, the top up recruiting has left a squad that is very vulnerable to injury to top liners. Lenny Hayes was THE grunt man now that Ball is a Pie...so who get the hard aggot now for the Saints?

In deep diggery do.

 

[year of the cat]

Clearly without achieving the ultimate prize, Lyon has demonstrated that he is a well organised, capable coach. My query is that with the style of play that he advocates I wonder whether his shelf life at a club may be shorter than others? He has a very dour game style he coaches too which must over a period of time have some of the playing list screaming out for a bit more freedom in the way they play the game. Whether he is able to transform not just the club but himself will be telling I think.

 

[wian]

Nope they have Collingwood after the Freo game.

well, thats even worse then ! hehe !

i think the scandal with the young girl, the nude photos and a few other things has really effected the saints this year

cant see them coming back now

 

[mcgarnacle]

Clearly without achieving the ultimate prize, Lyon has demonstrated that he is a well organised, capable coach. My query is that with the style of play that he advocates I wonder whether his shelf life at a club may be shorter than others? He has a very dour game style he coaches too which must over a period of time have some of the playing list screaming out for a bit more freedom in the way they play the game. Whether he is able to transform not just the club but himself will be telling I think.

he's had to implement a game plan that is consistent with the list's abilities. it's been thought for several yrs now that they never had the best bunch of players. nowhere near the ability and skills of GEE over the same period. He's done well to get the best out this group and get them to two GFs. They way SK have been able to compete over the last few years is too strangle teams. Instil a flashy gameplan with this lot and they'd be mid-to-low table standard.

it might be his philosophy and new recruits might continue to fit this mould, or perhaps he'll change tack and rebuild a different style. But he got the best anyone could out of this current lot.

 

[serenityNow]

If they come out and beat Carlton their 2 1/2 wins and 3 loss's....Hardly season over...However if Carlton come out and do what is expected and beat the Saints then i will agree.......its time to start looking long term with the run of games they're coming into.