Saints Are Finished in 2011 & Beyond

[gravy1]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

Didak (2000), Davis(1999), Johnson(1999), O'Brien(2004) and Maxwell(2002) all say hi!!!

Haha no idea how I messed that up so much... I think I must've been thinking just national drafts 2000-2004, when our drafting record was hideous.

 

[Strahany]

The way I see it, St.Kilda has been such a regimented side that it will be difficult to make wholesale changes mid-season without the gameplan falling apart.

Thought they had one more crack at it this year, but it does look to be season over.

Happy to see other people see this as well. Whilst Ross' gameplan has been effective over the past 2 years, it has been our undoing. He has been far too afraid to introduce new players, at the risk of ruining this extremely strict, specific style of play. Now that it's gone to shit, Ross should wake up and see that although introducing new players will ruin the gameplan, it won't put us in any worse of a position. Play the kids and who knows, we might win some games with the same plan or with a different one. They won't be likely to make a difference, but at least at the start of 2012 they'll have the better part of a season under their belt and be ready to have a real crack.

We should trade a player to GWS and get some prime kids, and/or maybe even a decent player or two from other clubs. IIRC, Goddard, Montagna and Dal Santo are all contracted. I doubt we'd break a contract for a trade. The only decent players we have that may be uncontracted are Fisher and Gilbert. The former is a valuable player, but trading him may be the big step we need to take. The latter is playing terribly and unless he can improve, will only be worth peanuts on the trade table.

Any players on the saints list the could be considered valuable by GWS and are eligible for trade?

 

[Max zero]

How much longer has Riewoldt, Hayes, Montagna, Goddard & Dal Santo got in the game ??

I know they are in their prime years now so depending on how many more can be squeezed out of them will allow the Saints to make some strategic changes to their list and still be able to launch one last premiership assault.

Kosi has to be moved on, he is a liability to the Saints but they might be able to get something reasonable in return for him from one of the lower ranked clubs needing a big body.

What lower ranked clubs?

 

[Dangas]

fence sitters all over the park

 

[Thrawn]

Carlton, next week, please be merciful.

No ****ing way. The amount of shit we copped from JeffDunne/Fireman/et al and the rest of the Saints fans prior to last year's win... when your club won something like 12 straight against us with an average of 40+ points, ohhh no. I except Carlton to be merciless.

 

[Max zero]

Any players on the saints list the could be considered valuable by GWS and are eligible for trade?

Might well be some but don't expect them to hand over any good picks unless you are willing to part with some quality.

 

[Strahany]

Might well be some but don't expect them to hand over any good picks unless you are willing to part with some quality.

Who would you (and every other non-Saints supporter) consider trading and what would you expect in return? I'd like a non-biased opinion as anything I'd think of would be rather blinded.

 

[Scodog10]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

Haha no idea how I messed that up so much... I think I must've been thinking just national drafts 2000-2004, when our drafting record was hideous.

All good mate, tbh that's not all that many anyway its just that those players bar maybe Davis have been core to our success over the years.

The concern for mine with the Saints would be when we started our rebuild in 2005 we had Didak, Fraser, Davis, Johnson, Tarrant, Swan, Lockyer and O'Bree all in that 22-24 age bracket the Saints on the other hand only have Gilbert, Armitage and Dawson in that age bracket atm and quite a few guys who are a similar age to what Buckley, Rocca, Clement and Licuria were when we started that 2005 rebuild. (I left Mcevoy out because he's a ruckman and looks to be a while off hitting his peak)

So if they started their rebuild this year and they were ready to challenge in 2015-2016 You'd think Reiwoldt, Hayes, Montagna, Dal Santo, Fisher, Gram, Milne, Schnieder, Baker and Blake will all either be gone or on their last legs with Goddard a veteran at 30.

If 2011 falls away badly would Saints fans prefer to load up for one last tilt in 2012 or trade away a player like Dal Santo who is expendable and would still have market value? Might be food for thought later on in the year if things go pear shaped (not saying they will). I'd probably look at moving him on personally, because I think the club's gone as far as they can with this current group, but I'm speaking from a completely dispassionate perspective so its a lot easier for me to say it.

 

[johncitizen]

Who would you (and every other non-Saints supporter) consider trading and what would you expect in return? I'd like a non-biased opinion as anything I'd think of would be rather blinded.

Roo, Dal and Montagna for half a dozen high draft picks from GWS

 

[Max zero]

Who would you (and every other non-Saints supporter) consider trading and what would you expect in return? I'd like a non-biased opinion as anything I'd think of would be rather blinded.

Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, Reiwoldt, Milne are worth high draft picks (although some a getting on a bit).

You might get a 2nd rounder for some others if you got lucky the rest 3rd round and later.

 

[Strahany]

Roo, Dal and Montagna for half a dozen high draft picks from GWS

As much as I'd like to get rid of Roo, it'll never happen. Dal and Montagna are expendable as they are good players, but not gamebreakers. Wouldn't mind attempting to dish off one of them for some picks. If we were to get rid of both, then I'd want either an average replacement player incorporated in the trade or have a current kid able to slip in.

 

[Strahany]

Goddard, Dal Santo, Montagna, Reiwoldt, Milne are worth high draft picks (although some a getting on a bit).

You might get a 2nd rounder for some others if you got lucky the rest 3rd round and later.

A Goddard trade is seeming more and more likely. I'd be absolutely devastated if he does go (I've got a massive man-crush on him). Maybe giving off a bunch of average players such as your Dempsters/Gram/Gilbert could accumulate into one or two decent picks, rather than a handful of rubbish.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Who would you (and every other non-Saints supporter) consider trading and what would you expect in return? I'd like a non-biased opinion as anything I'd think of would be rather blinded.

Richmond would be looking at players 23yo and under, to fit in with the bulk of the team. McEvoy might be tempting, though his ruck work needs to get better, and St.Kilda wouldn't be looking to trade. Not sure what we could offer...Mitch Morton appears to be on the outer at present, plus a pick (not 1st round)?

Then again Miller's getting a game, so Nick would be welcome to see out his career with his cousin. But with perhaps only a couple of good years left, we couldn't afford to offer what you guys would think he is worth.

 

[H2F]

Lenny Hayes was the heart and soul of St Kilda so this is no surprise.

They are nothing without Lenny.

 

[Latro]

I would not trade Goddard you could rebuild and be back up contending when he is still in his prime or on the tailend of it like Pavlich at Freo.

 

[chestbrah]

I remember sitting there in 2004 after the horrific events of '02-'03 realising our chance was over, all our good players were 26 and over and our kids were a bunch of muppets.

It only took us 3 seasons to get back into the finals, which we have featured in every year since, whilst losing blokes along the way like Buckley, Rocca, Burns, Licuria, Clement, Holland, Wakellin, Woewodin and Tarrant*... not to mention the fact the Fraser, Presti, O'bree, Medhurst and Lockyer whilst still on the list didn't play in our Premiership team.

I mean if you had of told me 6 years ago that I'd be sitting here with a flag in the bank and none of those 14 blokes featured in it I'd say you were kidding yourself.

It's time for the Saints to turn to their youth, find some blokes that can actually kick a footy and get them in the side.

 

[Strahany]

I think that St Kilda need to have a firesale, or utilise GWS next year and inject another year or two of quality football into the team. The problem with the Saints is that the gap between the best players and the rest is far too big. The poor players on our list drag down the rest of the team and if that can be addressed, then our gun players can play to their potential. Mucking out the crap and making a smart trade or two with GWS to get some decent player(s) could get the Saints on track again. Harvest GWS's uncontracted players privilege, or work with free agency.

This would be hard to pull-off and would be risky. If we're not ballsy enough to do something like this, I think converting most of our stars into some quality kids will do wonders. Keep one or two guns, filter out the poor players for current kids and then get the best deals possible for the rest. By the time most of the team the was kept retires, the new wave of players (if picked correctly) would be at the peak of their ability.

 

[Ron The Bear]

I remember sitting there in 2004 after the horrific events of '02-'03 realising our chance was over, all our good players were 26 and over and our kids were a bunch of muppets.

It only took us 3 seasons to get back into the finals, which we have featured in every year since, whilst losing blokes along the way like Buckley, Rocca, Burns, Licuria, Clement, Holland, Wakellin, Woewodin and Tarrant*... not to mention the fact the Fraser, Presti, O'bree, Medhurst and Lockyer whilst still on the list didn't play in our Premiership team.

I mean if you had of told me 6 years ago that I'd be sitting here with a flag in the bank and none of those 14 blokes featured in it I'd say you were kidding yourself.

It's time for the Saints to turn to their youth, find some blokes that can actually kick a footy and get them in the side.

Not sure this is the same situation - St.Kilda haven't got enough matches into the younger players. No players under 24 have reached 50 games.

Collingwood were very young for a GF team in 2002-03. To get there, Malthouse played kids and took his lumps through 2000-01. Is St.Kilda prepared to be as radical under Lyon?

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

I laugh at the people who say 10 years, that's a joke.

A rebuild takes 6 years at most until you're up and challenging.

2000-2004 St Kilda
2005-2008/9/10 Collingwood
2004-2007/8 Hawthorn
1999-2004 Geelong
2001-2005 West Coast

Since the draft - the quickest time between grand finals with a largely renovated squad is 7 years. That was Essendon from '93 to '00 and Collingwood from '03 to '10, Sydney did it in 9 years.

They are the best turnarounds from peak to peak.

If you think you can turn over your squad and get back to challenging in 5 years you are dreaming.

 

[placebo]

As much as I'd like to get rid of Roo, it'll never happen. Dal and Montagna are expendable as they are good players, but not gamebreakers. Wouldn't mind attempting to dish off one of them for some picks. If we were to get rid of both, then I'd want either an average replacement player incorporated in the trade or have a current kid able to slip in.

Trading Dal Santo is not the worst idea.

 

[Gainzo]

Haven't read the thread but the Saints are done. Horrible skills, decision making, and tackling. Nobody wearing the red, white and black gave a shit tonight. Even the horrible Saints sides in the '80's cared.

 

[Max zero]

A Goddard trade is seeming more and more likely. I'd be absolutely devastated if he does go (I've got a massive man-crush on him). Maybe giving off a bunch of average players such as your Dempsters/Gram/Gilbert could accumulate into one or two decent picks, rather than a handful of rubbish.

Don't make the mistake of thinking you can do a 'half rebuild'. So many teams have tried and I can't think of any who have succeeded.

If you going to rebuild be serious about it or you will just end up wasting several years in 'no mans land'.

 

[Zahki]

Trading Dal Santo is not the worst idea.

What club would take him, let alone give up whatever the Saints would demand (first rounder?).

 

[jc37]

I think the Saints still have a chance in 2012 if a little luck goes there way after that it is really major rebuilding time.

I am sure there is young talent that can be blooded and freshen up the side for next year and it is time for the older group to be invigorated by players such as Cripps. Geelong have I think been freshened up by the likes of menzel, duncan etc.

The fact is there is still going to be great talent in this side. The mid range duds who have been given faith and games need to be shaken up, young players need to be given a chance and the club should look to building for 2012. If at the end of this year the club does not genuinely look like being a chance than it is time to call the end of a few players careers and look to get value out of what they can of some of their stars who no longer want to be there.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

The Saints problem is what a lot of people have been saying about them prior to 2011. I didn't think they would fall like this in 2011 though.

As has been said in the past, this St. Kilda team has been exceptionally well-drilled to play a particular game plan, which was slow and aimed to stifle the scoring of the opposition.

They have a group of top echelon players - Riewoldt, Goddard, Hayes, Montagna, Dal Santo and Milne, then some decent players like Gilbert, Gram, Fisher etc. However, they then have a large second half of average players, who really only fit within the team because the gameplan allowed it.

The risk with the way St. Kilda have gone about things is that when the game plan was inevitably figured out, a lot of their players would be found out to be pretty ordinary players. Also, they relied heavily on their top echelon and if they were to go (as Hayes has) or battle with form issues (as I think they all are) then those ordinary players would be exposed further.

Now, the problem St. Kilda faces is that if they can't regain form, figure out a new way to play or get those great players playing at their best again, they will struggle to rebuild quickly as Lyon has recycled so many average players that they have filled the spots rather than going for youth.

Some say St. Kilda has no good young kids coming through. I won't say that's true, we just don't know who any of them are because none have been given game time the last few years. What happens when the cull of the average players happens and a bunch of raw kids have to come in?

I can understand if the players feel somewhat disheartened. In 2009, they dominated the competition. In the H&A season, their form was near impeccable, with the exception of two meaningless games towards the end of the season. They won 19 games in a row and bumped us off in an epic.

If they were to ever win a GF, that was their year. On Grand final day, they played well, lead for a long time but some early misses and bad decisions were mistakes that could not be made against that Geelong side.

In 2010, I think they kind of fell into the GF and no one expected them to win. The draw was more a case of Collingwood falling down then St. Kilda really improving and Collingwood proved this in the replay.

After working so hard in such a regimented game style for so long to come up with nothing must hurt, especially when their last grand final loss was a pretty big belting.

Watching a team who had been behind them shoot past them with youth and play a far more exciting brand of football defeat them must be pretty grating too. Maybe some of those top players are questioning the ability of Lyon.