Saints Are Finished in 2011 & Beyond

[Pie eyed]

Every Collingwood and Geelong pleb will always have some idiotic opinion about St Kilda.

Just as will every Saints pleb.

Reality though is played out on our footy fields.

Whose reality is closest to the truth right now?

Personally I think it's more mental than anything, with the horror pre-season, not all of their own making, having taken far greater toll than the club are willing to admit, at least externally.

 

[Falchoon]

Finishing 7th or 8th for a few years simply wont help them.

Look at what Collingwood did......

'


Doggies are trying the father son route, unfortunately the age of the freebie is over

 

[MightyHawks]

The Saints have to make some big decisions about topping up or rebuilding.

I think 2011 is finished in terms of a premiership for them, though still expect a tough match in two weeks.

Do they roll the dice as the Bombers did in the early 2000s, and top up again?

Could they get a couple of decent players at the trade table and challenge in 2012?

Or... what if they sped up the bottoming out process... and traded Goddard to Carlton for example?

Whatever they do, they need to get some younger talent into the list or they will crash to spoon territory in a couple of years as their stars get older.

 

[doppleganger]

can you list the players 7-22 that are the cloggers?

It depends on your definition of a clogger??

How many do you think will play in the next saints flag??

Unless you think a flag is still on the cards for 2011/12 do you keep playing guys like S.Fisher, Gram, Montagna??? Let alone Dempster, Blake, Baker, Kosi, Milne and Jones.

heres your grand final team and their draft pick numbers and year. you can see that your core group of players are all top 20 picks the rest are support players taken later in the draft.

??

It is a normal mix

5 top 10 picks
3 picks between 11-30
4 picks 30+s
2 father sons
6 rookies
3 traded in

Considering that we are talking about draft's from 1999 through to 2008, it clearly wasn't all top picks!

The key being getting a big group of quality through in a few years.

if you look at the dates you will see you got youre core when you had bottomed out. so the idea of us doing a clean out and rebuilding when GWS and GC get the majority of the top 20 picks is just insane.

the double dip at 1 & 2 are gone.....but that aint the be all and end all. You need to get quite a few first rounders in succession.

Pies traded Taz to get an extra 1st rounder in 06, so even though we made the finals we were still able to jag pick 8 & 10.

This meant we were able to get 11 of our premiership players from 3 drafts....04-06. Geelong were the same with 99-01.

The Saints could bottom out for a couple of years, trade a couple of stars and all of a sudden get 8 top 20-30 picks in the next 3 years......if drafting well then they may be challenging again.

 

[10571z]

Great thread. It will be really intresting to see how this season pans out for them. Pick up a couple of suprise wins in the next few rounds and everything could turn around. But at the same time its quite possible that they might get 1 more win to round 15

As for their future its a tough one. Its going to be hard to pick up good draft picks like collingwood were able to with gold coast and gws on the cards atm. I would deffintitly get rid of a couple of their decent players in return for a few low drafts.

 

[justlookingaround]

Watch this with the sound off-
[YOUTUBE]qnGAXKuwxyg[/YOUTUBE]
While listening to this-
[YOUTUBE]Wq7jLEnZw6s[/YOUTUBE]
It's actually pretty sad

 

[Rustin Cohle]

If I was St. Kilda, I'd be looking to trade out players for draft picks. Their own history of "topping up" has shown that it just doesn't work. Some of the moves I would be looking at making:

Trading Kosi for the best pick possible. Carlton or Essendon would be a good fit and they may be willing to give a first rounder with a sweetner involved.

Trading Leigh Montagna to a team like GCS and getting a high draft pick and possibly a player as well.

Delist Peake ASAP.

Look to trade Nick Dal Santo in a similar fashion to the Montagna suggestion.

 

[underthestars]

first time i've seen a replay. typical saints curse - pies last goal was a clear throw.

 

[Righteo]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

That 2009 trade week was just an absolute disaster for the Saints, and really the point where the apparent ends of this era that we're seeing now were sowed. Lovett for their first round pick which they could have used for a Menzel or Tappscott, and then Ball for nothing, when they could have got pick 30 for it, were two decisions that have turned out very poorly.

You forgot the best part, trading a 3rd rounder for Brett Peake

 

[justlookingaround]

first time i've seen a replay. typical saints curse - pies last goal was a clear throw.

Yeah... you're right

 

[vjknight]

can you list the players 7-22 that are the cloggers?

heres your grand final team and their draft pick numbers and year. you can see that your core group of players are all top 20 picks the rest are support players taken later in the draft. if you look at the dates you will see you got youre core when you had bottomed out. so the idea of us doing a clean out and rebuilding when GWS and GC get the majority of the top 20 picks is just insane. we just wont have the picks. even if we do get the pick were then competing against two teams with the larger salary cap and the extra concessions they get (given were now rebuilding at the same time they are). your comments about tanking the gifts we got is pretty funny, considering you got alot of youre good players in similar circumstances (see the 1999 picks, the 2005 picks, the 2006 picks). you've also been fortunate in the father/son picks you got.

before we move onto your list cloggers, can you or someone provide a similiar list to that you compiled for the pies. no doubt it will help in the overall discussion, considering this is a thread about the saints.

 

[evo]

It just goes to show how much weight of the club was being carried on Hayes' shoulders.

He should be regarded as a true champion of the game.

 

[MarkT2]

heres your grand final team and their draft pick numbers and year. you can see that your core group of players are all top 20 picks the rest are support players taken later in the draft.

That list tells me what I already knew. Collingwood's list management has been outstanding. They had drafted well woth early picks, had a great return from the rookie list, taken some quality late and traded well.

The captain was a rookie and the best player was taken at pick 58. The single most important player added to the list in recet years would be Jolly who was a trade to fill a hole that has been there a long time. There are a relatively large number of rookies proving the worth of Derek Hine.

One of the main reasons given for Collingwood beating St Kilda is the bottom end of the 22. That is where Derek Hine won Collingwood the flag.

 

[The Press]

Just play luke ball in hayes place.......

Oh thats right.......

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Ben Reid: Pick 8 - 2006 (you're 1st pick)
Nathan Brown: Pick 10 - 2006 (you're 2nd pick)

We traded an All Australian forward to get Ben Reid. Perhaps we may have got Reid anyway with pick 10, so arguably we traded Tarrant away to get Brown.

Either way we gave away something of quality to get that pick. Top quality, actually. And we picked up Paul "steakknives" Medhurst as an extra bonus.

If StKilda had the nads to do somthing similar with Kozi a few years back then maybe they would have a premiership.

 

[Slattery_20]

Trading Kosi for the best pick possible. Carlton or Essendon would be a good fit and they may be willing to give a first rounder with a sweetner involved.

With 3 rucks in the run-on side, Hurley shifted back, and Gumby in the reserves: why??? (and that's before we even discuss Kosi's talent level)

Reiwoldt would be the best trade. Also the least likely, but in terms of what his stocks are now (couple of 1st rounders), how long he's got left, and the chunk of salary cap he'd take, he'd be the one.
The very bold move would be to make a statement & trade him, Nicky Dal, or Montagna.

Blokes like Kosi, Schneider, Ray, McQaulter are 'just' players, not much to gain or lose from shoving them out, they'll go eventually.

 

[Power King]

Re: Saints Are Finished in 2010 & Beyond

1997 grand final



2009 grand final

Count the years.

Ok obviously, we could have made a grand final earlier than 2009, but a rebuild to get to a grand final is a massive ask. It's a probably a 10 year job.

It's stupid to count it as the years from grand final to grand final. You gotta count it from year of being a serious contender to the next year.

Port first had a premiership contending squad in 2002 and 2003 (any team that wins the minor premiership has one) but choked and didn't make the grand final in either year. Crows haven't made a grand final since 97 but they had a serious squad in 05/06.

 

[Defacto]

before we move onto your list cloggers, can you or someone provide a similiar list to that you compiled for the pies. no doubt it will help in the overall discussion, considering this is a thread about the saints.

i never said collingwood had any list cloggers. you made the comment the saints had 7-22 players that are list cloggers. can you tell us, who these players are based on the GF1-GF2 sides?

 

[Bourky23]

Reiwoldt would be the best trade.

dear oh dear.

 

[OB1]

We traded an All Australian forward to get Ben Reid. Perhaps we may have got Reid anyway with pick 10, so arguably we traded Tarrant away to get Brown.

Either way we gave away something of quality to get that pick. Top quality, actually. And we picked up Paul "steakknives" Medhurst as an extra bonus.

If StKilda had the nads to do somthing similar with Kozi a few years back then maybe they would have a premiership.

A lot of the stuff in this thread is revisionist tripe but the calls to trade Kosi have been there for a long time. He looked like a classic example of a player who needed a new home where he could find a spot of his own. Reminds me a lot of a player like Ottens. At Richmond, Ottens showed talent but never really established himself as a consistant performer. Like Kosi he didn't live up to expectations because of his high pick. Once traded Ottens got a fresh start & has become a very good consistant performer. No he's not the superstar carrying the team that Richmond hoped for but he's the good big man Geelong needed. IMHO Kosi needed to have a fresh start & be able to play in a forward line where Riewoldt wasn't. Now its probably too late. His trade value wouldn't be that much to any of the established sides so their best hope is GWS get desperate. Not sure under the system what he would be worth but its probably higher than his true value.

 

[Defacto]

That list tells me what I already knew. Collingwood's list management has been outstanding. They had drafted well woth early picks, had a great return from the rookie list, taken some quality late and traded well.

The captain was a rookie and the best player was taken at pick 58. The single most important player added to the list in recet years would be Jolly who was a trade to fill a hole that has been there a long time. There are a relatively large number of rookies proving the worth of Derek Hine.

One of the main reasons given for Collingwood beating St Kilda is the bottom end of the 22. That is where Derek Hine won Collingwood the flag.

couldnt agree more. however, i think its a combination of the drafting and development. i actually think your development is better than your drafting. you're trading has been exceptional.

i think your ability to pump millions into off field football dept spending is a huge advantage.

 

[Defacto]

We traded an All Australian forward to get Ben Reid. Perhaps we may have got Reid anyway with pick 10, so arguably we traded Tarrant away to get Brown.

Either way we gave away something of quality to get that pick. Top quality, actually. And we picked up Paul "steakknives" Medhurst as an extra bonus.

If StKilda had the nads to do somthing similar with Kozi a few years back then maybe they would have a premiership.

the tarrant trade has worked out nicely for you. plus, the pick up of medhurst was unbelievable. at the time, i couldnt believe freo got rid of him. he was a gun and often in their best. he had a bad season or two but you can turn that around.

kozi is a tricky one. he was treated like shit under thomas, often played under injury. his injuries werent managed well at all. he gave alot. the only time we should have traded him would have been 2008. his injury history would have been a problem. his form in 2009 was excellent. his form in 2010 was affected my a major ankle injury that he played the year out on, to support the team in the absence of roo.

right now we need kozi more than ever. gardiner is in his very last year, and not recovering from injury. mcevoy is being expected to do too much. he is rucking out entire games and getting slaughtered in hit outs because of it. kozi needs to come back to give mcevoy a rest. he is needed next year as well as a ruck back up plan for mcevoy. i actually think kozi should ruck the game and mcevoy should play fwd and pinch hit the ruck.

 

[Stifler's mom]

And to think this has been the 2nd most successful period in the Saints entire history!

 

[Slattery_20]

dear oh dear.

I do appreciate it's obviously not going to happen.
But:
Those 3 blokes, around the 27-28yo mark, are not going to play in a flag @ St K.

So if GC/GWS walked up & said: 2 gun picks & a decent kid for Reiwoldt or 2 good picks for Montagna or N.D.S... dispassionately, what would be the right thing to do?

 

[Bourky23]

I would honestly tear up my membership if we traded Riewoldt.

I understand the point you make but as Ross said in his presser "you can destroy the fabric of your club" by doing things like that.

Riewoldt has won 5 b&f's, is our captain and has given everything to the club.

Regardless the 'worth' of high draft picks, trading Roo puts us further away from the ultimate than closer IMO.

It's been said a million times over but even a No.1 pick is still only a chance to be a gun, obviously a good chance, but still a risk.

unless Roo wanted to leave I couldn't fathom us trading him.