Scott Pendlebury - Standing in the game?

[PieLebo87]

I think your non-answer suggests deep down you know the truth.


Just so you're aware, this makes you sound like a teenage girl.

Your assumptions, just like your opinions, are way off.

 

[adammania9]

I thought I was clear, but apparently not.

Coaches most highly value players who are the most likely to help them win flags. For eg, a Michael Voss had a game style that was perfect for finals football, even if he wasn't the most consistent performer in the leage in the H&A. James Hird similarly had stats that look quite unremarkable, but he could take over and seize those moments that win finals. That's why he's widely regarded as one of the best players of all time.

I would put Toby Greene in that category of player (not saying he's as good as Voss or Hird), in that he seizes the moment in big games when very few others can. A Hodge or McLeod is similarly highly valued and rare, even if they didn't rack up endless AAs for H&A consistency.

Those type of players win premierships. I'm not talking about how many actual premierships a player has won.

It's the vibe of it. It's the Constitution. It's Mabo. It's justice. It's law. It's the vibe and ah, no that's it. It's the vibe.

 

[RichLeMonde]

It's the vibe of it. It's the Constitution. It's Mabo. It's justice. It's law. It's the vibe and ah, no that's it. It's the vibe.

Wow, you've really convinced me that I was wrong to think that certain footy attributes are particularly important in finals. Have you considered joining a debating team?

 

[adammania9]

Wow, you've really convinced me that I was wrong to think that certain footy attributes are particularly important in finals. Have you considered joining a debating team?

For what it's worth I agree with a lot of your list, but there are some bad selections, particularly when you went as far as to say every coach would take that player over Pendlebury. There wouldn't be many that would suit that criteria, there'd be a few even splits and a few in Pendlebury's favour.
Jarryd Roughead - a top five forward for two years in his career. No coach is taking him over Pendlebury.
Clayton Oliver - gun, but not many coaches are taking him over Pendlebury.
Marcus Bontempelli - closing in, but his best seasons falls short of Pendlebury's best. His finals record is no better either.
Toby Greene - sensational at what he does, but no coaches are taking a mid-size forward over a star ball-winning mid.
Josh P Kennedy - champion. Wouldn't be near unanimous. More would take Pendlebury.
Dubious on Riewoldt and Hawkins - some would take them, but to unanimously speak for all coaches that none would take Pendles is a bad call.
I also don't think Dangerfield and Fyfe would be as unanimous as many might think, but they'd win a poll.

 

[RichLeMonde]

For what it's worth I agree with a lot of your list, but there are some bad selections, particularly when you went as far as to say every coach would take that player over Pendlebury. There wouldn't be many that would suit that criteria, there'd be a few even splits and a few in Pendlebury's favour.
Jarryd Roughead - a top five forward for two years in his career. No coach is taking him over Pendlebury.
Clayton Oliver - gun, but not many coaches are taking him over Pendlebury.
Marcus Bontempelli - closing in, but his best seasons falls short of Pendlebury's best. His finals record is no better either.
Toby Greene - sensational at what he does, but no coaches are taking a mid-size forward over a star ball-winning mid.
Josh P Kennedy - champion. Wouldn't be near unanimous. More would take Pendlebury.
Dubious on Riewoldt and Hawkins - some would take them, but to unanimously speak for all coaches that none would take Pendles is a bad call.
I also don't think Dangerfield and Fyfe would be as unanimous as many might think, but they'd win a poll.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to what I was saying. I'm not trying to shit on Pendlebury; he's a champion, just not a top 4 this century.

Of the guys you mentioned, I'd probably be most bullish on Greene. I actually think he's one of the top 3 or 4 most valuable in the league.

I think key forwards like Hawkins and Riewoldt are pretty rare and massive building blocks for flags. Roughead also highly prized as a gun forward/mobile ruck, but sure, you might be right that he wasn't good enough for long enough to be taken ahead of P.

Probably fair to take Pendlebury ahead of Fyfe, who I think is a touch overrated.

Maybe too early to call on Bont and Oliver. Probably splitting hairs with Kennedy and S Mitchell - either way it's very good company to be in.

 

[Fadge]

I've listed them because they directly disprove your claim that Pendles only didn't get named on the ball in the AA team because of Judd and GAJ. I've proved that 35 blokes managed the feat, and Pendles isn't one of them.

OK, so all these players got named on the ball in the AA side whilst GAJ and Judd were in their prime?

Gotcha.

 

[Xtreme]

The greatest basketball turned footy player the AFL will ever see!

 

[gillon]

Better than Selwood

 

[Fadge]

He has been ultra consistent in being one of the 10-20th best players in the comp (hence the 10 AA noms), but not being one of the top 5 players in the comp (he has one season with that claim). That's why every coach would love to have him, but there's plenty of players they'd take ahead of him at the start of their careers.

Doesn't say much for Martin's career then if a lowly Pendlebury is ahead of him...



Tell me which years I have wrong, and why...

 

[Arr0w]

Will be inducted as a legend of the game, favourite opposition player

 

[Rilzi]

Pendlebury has been a very good player over the journey - elite even - I'd put him a tier below the Judd, GAblett and Martin types however. As a captain? He seemed okay, but to be honest I thought Maxwell had more heart and leadership.

 

[RichLeMonde]

OK, so all these players got named on the ball in the AA side whilst GAJ and Judd were in their prime?

Gotcha.

Oh dear. GAJ and Judd were picked on the ball on the same AA team only 3 times. And even in those years there’s still a 3rd spot available on the ball. That means there were years and years of Pendles’ prime where he wasn’t held out of starting on the ball in the AA team by GAJ and Judd. Despite that, he never was picked as one of the 3 best mids in the comp in a single year, while 35 other players since 2000 have been.

It’s ok to admit you’re wrong, Fadge

 

[Fadge]

Oh dear. GAJ and Judd were picked on the ball on the same AA team only 3 times. And even in those years there’s still a 3rd spot available on the ball. That means there were years and years of Pendles’ prime where he wasn’t held out of starting on the ball in the AA team by GAJ and Judd. Despite that, he never was picked as one of the 3 best mids in the comp in a single year, while 35 other players since 2000 have been.

It’s ok to admit you’re wrong, Fadge

So where does Pendlebury rate?

Because as per my analysis shared above, wherever he is rated, he is a rung above Martin and the like.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Doesn't say much for Martin's career then if a lowly Pendlebury is ahead of him...

View attachment 1733649

Tell me which years I have wrong, and why...

.

So where does Pendlebury rate?

Because as per my analysis shared above, wherever he is rated, he is a rung above Martin and the like.

Your ‘rating system’ privileges consistency. Consistency is important, particularly for helping your team win H&A games and make finals.

The Gary Ayres trophy has been around since 2016. If it had been around all of Pendles’ career, I’d say he’d have one award.

I’m not going to argue that Martin has had more better seasons, head to head with Pendlebury. But I think most coaches would rather have an Ayres-winning finals series than an AA H&A season from a player. If so, Martin would have 3 of the top 4 seasons vs SP.

Do you honestly believe that there’s a serious football person in the country who would draft Pendles ahead of Martin? Clubs exist to win premierships, and Martin gives more than Pendlebury towards that aim.

You could do a similar head to head between Scott West and Kouta, and ‘prove’ West is rated higher, based on year in year out performance. But no coach would draft West ahead of Kouta.

 

[Fadge]

.
Your ‘rating system’ privileges consistency. Consistency is important, particularly for helping your team win H&A games and make finals.

The Gary Ayres trophy has been around since 2016. If it had been around all of Pendles’ career, I’d say he’d have one award.

I’m not going to argue that Martin has had more better seasons, head to head with Pendlebury. But I think most coaches would rather have an Ayres-winning finals series than an AA H&A season from a player. If so, Martin would have 3 of the top 4 seasons vs SP.

Do you honestly believe that there’s a serious football person in the country who would draft Pendles ahead of Martin? Clubs exist to win premierships, and Martin gives more than Pendlebury towards that aim.

You could do a similar head to head between Scott West and Kouta, and ‘prove’ West is rated higher, based on year in year out performance. But no coach would draft West ahead of Kouta.

Yep, and Ted Hopkins and Tom Boyd have contributed more to premierships than Tony Lockett and Bob Skilton.

It is your opinion that hypothetical coaches would hypothetically draft Martin ahead of Pendlebury.

My analysis has confirmed Pendlebury has been a better player over the course of his career, when you take all the data into account (but as always you just want to go back to a small subset that is finals series', against weaker opposition in a weaker era).

 

[jakson68]

.
Your ‘rating system’ privileges consistency. Consistency is important, particularly for helping your team win H&A games and make finals.

The Gary Ayres trophy has been around since 2016. If it had been around all of Pendles’ career, I’d say he’d have one award.

I’m not going to argue that Martin has had more better seasons, head to head with Pendlebury. But I think most coaches would rather have an Ayres-winning finals series than an AA H&A season from a player. If so, Martin would have 3 of the top 4 seasons vs SP.

Do you honestly believe that there’s a serious football person in the country who would draft Pendles ahead of Martin? Clubs exist to win premierships, and Martin gives more than Pendlebury towards that aim.

You could do a similar head to head between Scott West and Kouta, and ‘prove’ West is rated higher, based on year in year out performance. But no coach would draft West ahead of Kouta.

I honestly thought Kouta was overrated.
He had a couple of decent seasons and one great season.
A bit like Martin I suppose, so I can understand the comparison.

You have convinced me, I would much rather Pendles play with my side for his career than Dusty.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[RichLeMonde]

Yep, and Ted Hopkins and Tom Boyd have contributed more to premierships than Tony Lockett and Bob Skilton.

It is your opinion that hypothetical coaches would hypothetically draft Martin ahead of Pendlebury.

My analysis has confirmed Pendlebury has been a better player over the course of his career, when you take all the data into account (but as always you just want to go back to a small subset that is finals series', against weaker opposition in a weaker era).

You probably think Pendlebury has been a more valuable player than Luke Hodge, because Hodge had only 3 AA selections. You’re happy to ignore intangibles, such as the fact that no other player in the league could have done what Hodge did in 08, to get them over the line against a superior team in the GF.

You probably think Buckley was a more valuable player than Voss, because in your stupid ranking system (what you call an ‘analysis’), Buckley was more consistent and would have a greater share of the best seasons.

 

[Fadge]

You probably think Pendlebury has been a more valuable player than Luke Hodge, because Hodge had only 3 AA selections. You’re happy to ignore intangibles, such as the fact that no other player in the league could have done what Hodge did in 08, to get them over the line against a superior team in the GF.

You probably think Buckley was a more valuable player than Voss, because in your stupid ranking system (what you call an ‘analysis’), Buckley was more consistent and would have a greater share of the best seasons.

Thanks for telling me what I probably think.

I haven't done an analysis on Voss v. Buckley, though actually think Voss would come out ahead as he was one of the best players in the competition for nearly a decade, bookended by his 1996 Brownlow and AFLPA MVP's in Brisbane premiership years. I also think Voss was the better captain.

I would also rate Voss's 2002 Grand Final slightly ahead of Buckley's, despite the latter winning the Norm Smith Medal.

I know Richmond supporters wouldn't be able to comprehend the above logic...

 

[RichLeMonde]

Thanks for telling me what I probably think.

I haven't done an analysis on Voss v. Buckley, though actually think Voss would come out ahead as he was one of the best players in the competition for nearly a decade, bookended by his 1996 Brownlow and AFLPA MVP's in Brisbane premiership years. I also think Voss was the better captain.

I would also rate Voss's 2002 Grand Final slightly ahead of Buckley's, despite the latter winning the Norm Smith Medal.

I know Richmond supporters wouldn't be able to comprehend the above logic...

Well you’ve explicitly stated you think SP is ahead of Hodge.

If you swapped peak Hodge for peak Pendlebury, Hawks lose in 08 and Pies probably win in 11.

If you swapped peak SP for peak Martin, Richmond lose in 20 and Pies probably win in 11.

That’s what matters, not 10 x AA noms.

 

[Fadge]

Well you’ve explicitly stated you think SP is ahead of Hodge.

If you swapped peak Hodge for peak Pendlebury, Hawks lose in 08 and Pies probably win in 11.

If you swapped peak SP for peak Martin, Richmond lose in 20 and Pies probably win in 11.

That’s what matters, not 10 x AA noms.

Ah, so we're now also working in alternate parallel universes are we?

You really are an amazing individual.

I'm not sure either Martin or Hodge would have been a suitable replacement for a hobbled Ben Reid, who was Hawkins' opponent when Hawkins got off the leash late in the third quarter and at the start of the last quarter to separate the game.

In fact, do you even know how Pendlebury performed in that 2011 Grand Final, and indeed that finals series?

 

[RichLeMonde]

Of course, he was Collingwood’s best. Played a ripper. But it wasn’t enough. That’s my point. Hodge and Martin have turned otherwise lost grand finals into wins off their own boots. SP does not have that match turning ability, even when he racks up 34. Regardless of whether the swapping of Hodge or Martin for SP would have got the Pies up in 11 (which I admit is a lot more debatable), there is no doubt that swapping SP for Hodge and Martin would have seen the Hawks lose in 08 and the Tiges lose in 20.

 

[Fadge]

Of course, he was Collingwood’s best. Played a ripper. But it wasn’t enough. That’s my point. Hodge and Martin have turned otherwise lost grand finals into wins off their own boots. SP does not have that match turning ability, even when he racks up 34. Regardless of whether the swapping of Hodge or Martin for SP would have got the Pies up in 11 (which I admit is a lot more debatable), there is no doubt that swapping SP for Hodge and Martin would have seen the Hawks lose in 08 and the Tiges lose in 20.

'No doubt' indeed...

And no consideration of the input from other 20 odd players on the respective teams in the results...

Such a simple world you fellows live in.

Norm Smith Medalist in a winning team = the differentiator.

Any player in a losing team = not good enough to be the differentiator.

Wowee.

 

[Pistol Night]

Of course, he was Collingwood’s best. Played a ripper. But it wasn’t enough. That’s my point. Hodge and Martin have turned otherwise lost grand finals into wins off their own boots. SP does not have that match turning ability, even when he racks up 34. Regardless of whether the swapping of Hodge or Martin for SP would have got the Pies up in 11 (which I admit is a lot more debatable), there is no doubt that swapping SP for Hodge and Martin would have seen the Hawks lose in 08 and the Tiges lose in 20.

While were doing this can we swap Dom Sheed for Levi Casboult in 2018

 

[RichLeMonde]

Norm Smith Medalist in a winning team = the differentiator.

Any player in a losing team = not good enough to be the differentiator.

Total straw man. And you accuse others of simplifying. I don’t think Martin had much influence on the result in 17 or 19. I actually think Rance in the first quarter had more influence on the result than any other player, since that is when Adelaide could have gotten off the chain. But 2020 was one of the most influential GF performances you’ll ever see (along with Hodge in 08).

Some efforts in losing GFs have also been highly influential, even if they didn’t get their team across the line (Buckley). I would not put SP’s 2011 game in that category though, even tho he filled the stat sheet.

 

[Tiger_Of_Old]

Respect.