Seriously where are we at?

[samwise]

Such a bad performance. It is only 1 match but it finally forces Lyon to change. Have been getting away with it so far this year. Could easily only have 1 or 2 wins.

Firstly congrats to Carlton. It was clear before the match that if their midfield was too fast for us then their forward line would be as well and they deserved the win. Great skills compared to our horrendous skills. Appalling play on decision against Goddard though when we had it down to 14 points though.

Where to start. Defense is just a mess. No one has any confidence. The fact that we play at least 2 of Goddard, Fisher, Gram out of defense leaves a bunch of muppetts. Dawson jesus christ you must be dropped. Brings absolutely nothing anymore. Last year at least he was running off and getting disaposals so you could see why he was better than Max. Embarrasing now. Gwilt has no confidence. You can't keep chucking everyone up forward...then down back...then back forward...oh wait go back. Please never play Clarke forward again. Try him on the wing or something. I'd rather him turning it over kicking forward than in the backline. Maybe just a shut down role. Blake and Baker were good and Carlton did well stopping Gilbert running forward too much. We can have 1 or 2 muppetts but we clearly have 1 or 2 too many down back and without a few guns like Goddard and Fisher helping you see what happens when the ball comes in before we can put the entire team back.

Forward line woes relate to the defenders. You cant play all these pitch hitters down there. Gwilt unfortunately doesn't seem to be working. Dono why on Earth you put Clark there and not Gardiner! Milne tried hard. Armfield did well taking Schneider out. Mcqualter has been poor this year and we dont win if he doesnt kick a goal. And of course that leaves Kosi. It's not really his fault. I mean he is terrible but he cant be Riewoldt. No one can (except maybe Pavlich). He is a 2nd or 3rd forward at best and when there is no one dangerous supporting him we have no chance. We didn't have that many less inside 50s than Carlton but when we kick it in if no one marks it, which they dont, then it just comes straight out and Carlton will outrun us....cant wait until we play at the MCG. Lyon has to do something now. Kosi & King rucking with Gardiner and say Stanley forward. Or Cahill or Peake or someone, anyone. Just keep them their and blood them!

And now on to the midfield. This is all quite drastic as it is only 1 game but it was so poor. Leave out Hayes. Rucks were dominant. We had a ridiculous amount of first possesions yet we could never get a clear clearance. Carlton were sooo much hungrier than us. The first quarter was just absolutely pathetic. No chasing. They had the numbers everywhere. Steven was bad but you can excuse him obviously because he's young. Dal was back to his old crap when getting tagged. So soft in the backline for a couple of goals. Monty was nowhere. There was only 1 time I remember (I left in 4th quarter if good things happened then it doesnt matter because it's junk) when Milne got the clearance and was actually running forward. Gram kicked the flukey goal. Every time just straight to Lenny who could get tackled or do an innefective handball. Wont beat Geelong even if Roo is in if they play like that.

Bit dramatic? Maybe but I think we should be. Lyon needs to be pressured into changing this crap style of crapball. I honestly dont feel like going back to watch them until Roo comes back. Bad for saints fans, bad for opposition fans, bad for the game, bad for the club. We are going backwards playing like this, literally.
You can't play Kosi, King, Gardiner, Dawson, Clark, Gwilt all in the same team. Maybe something like Gardiner forward, Kosi in the ruck, Gwilt & Clark down back. Happy that's off my chest.
Your thoughts on where we are at?

 

[iloveleigh]

i completely agree with everything you just said,
except maybe dawson, i thought he tried hard and did some good things.
(smother in the 3rd quarter to stop a goal) but really all it did was reduce the margin.
we looked like we were running on the spot, especially geary? what was up witth his game?
we couldnt get a midfield clearance, murphy and judd were just dominating.
dal, well, i dont even know what to say, im sure he knows how bad he played and will turn it around next week, i just think he needs to get a bit tougher.
joey, no effective disposals, didnt really do anything at all,
gram tried hard, but got no support
i thought gilbert had a shocker personally, his kicking efficiency seems to be really down lately? goddard was reliable, and hayes easily best on ground, seemed to be the only one trying.

kosi, is just a lost cause, i seriously dont know what to do, i reckon we should just try stanley for 1 week it cant hurt us, we need the goals, milne tried his guts out, schneider was missing,
i thought clarke did some really good tackles, thats about it...
what elsse?
i really didnt like carltons game plan, they get the ball, take it out, get the stoppage, pass it to judd, clearance.
and again, and again, no skill, no nothing, but clearly, they played better than us.

umpiring was shit.

 

[StFly]

People don't take their time do they? match is underway, gets finished and as soon as that siren sounds the knives come out and everyone goes for their favourite whipping boys and anyone who had a shocking game to them, there's no proactive thoughts, there's no toughts on where imprtovement needs to come from just "please don't do this..." "please eff off that guy..." "stab that guy in the face I would..." dressed up all nice and pretty with the most tastiest venom one can find these days.

Where we are at currently is needing a lot of people to play better than they have been, obviously that discussion is for another thread where it will be worth it instead of "What? You want to keep Kosi/Clarke/Dawson etc? You madman, you iz stoopid!"

 

[TheLastEmperor]

i don't think we can make wholesale changes as we don't have enough players coming through the ranks. no doubt we have too many defenders. gilbert, fisher and one other tall defender is enough. i'd be happy to see dawson and blake both dropped. they're both too clumsy, slow and inevitably cost us turnovers and goals. our other issue is obviously pace. ross thinks clarke is the answer. most know this is not true. he needs to go. that's three defenders gone, good. lets look at some flair and pace. stanley for me comes in simply for a bit of flair. then we need to look at someone young and hungry. enter geartner. keep stevens, he's shown a little and look at bringing armo back in, he's a warrior and wins his fair share of contested footy with limited opportunity. i think we seriously need to consider peake - again, a bit of flair and certainly pace. kosi keeps his spot but plays 30% ruck with gardy doing the rest and stanley to pinch hit against the weaker opposition ruckman. in the end it prolly is wholesale changes but i reckon there's quite the changes that need to occur, we got belted by 12 goals goddammit!

out: king, clarke, dawson & blake
in: stanley, peake, armo & geartner

 

[Rhombus]

It's a long season and everyone gets smashed once in a while.

I remember Collingwood smacking Geelong by 15 goals in '08 when Geelong had only lost 1 of their past 30 games.

You need your questionable players to contribute in September: Dawson, Kosi, McQ, R Clarke

 

[Papa Juggs]

When Geelong can play rookies and we can't you start to wonder.

That felt like a very stale team with all the same old faces.

A bit like Adelaide or maybe heading that way!!!

Armitage dropped????

Bad call??

 

[samwise]

People don't take their time do they? match is underway, gets finished and as soon as that siren sounds the knives come out and everyone goes for their favourite whipping boys and anyone who had a shocking game to them, there's no proactive thoughts, there's no toughts on where imprtovement needs to come from just "please don't do this..." "please eff off that guy..." "stab that guy in the face I would..." dressed up all nice and pretty with the most tastiest venom one can find these days.

Where we are at currently is needing a lot of people to play better than they have been, obviously that discussion is for another thread where it will be worth it instead of "What? You want to keep Kosi/Clarke/Dawson etc? You madman, you iz stoopid!"

I left the game early because my lift wanted to. I honestly cannot find any positives out of that game besides the big one that I mentioned originally in that it now forces Lyon to change.

LastEmperor as if you want to drop Blake.

 

[DarrenR]

St.Fly, the "whipping boys"are the whipping boys for a reason.
Freemantle has rid itself of the players who make bad decisions under pressure and we still have Raph and Cougar.

Kosi can't be Roo, but hell, can't he be a guy to kick One goal or apply SOME defensive pressure. How often did he lose a contest and have it swept up the other end. The guy is a very poor full forward.

We have accepted last years disappointment only with the hope of this year. We have traded away early picks for traded players and mortgaged our future. We have given away Maguire and Ball and failed to pick up Barlow or Silvagni.

We have made many decsions to get up that extra step. Maybe it requires dropping the whipping boys for their failure and gambling on developing their replacements and take the short term hit.

 

[samwise]

The Ball and Maguire trades are just pathetic. Wouldnt mind Wellingham in our team right now. Or maybe trying Maguire up forward or down back instead of Dawson. He wanted to stay. Lovett was a first round draft pick too. No wonder it's a struggle to find solid players to come in.

 

[lewdogs]

I thought our tackling was really soft. Last year we hurt teams and they feared us, they didn't want the ball because they were scared of what would happen when they got tackled. This week that attitude was non-existent, it requires all 22 to be going hard and to be honest, there were so many players coasting tonight.

Must respond next week and go very very HARD. The goals will come if we get that back.

Tonight was embarrassing, but what will really matter is how we respond.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

LastEmperor as if you want to drop Blake.

too clumsy, horrible disposal and ultimately turns the ball over too often. he needs to lose the arrogance and play the percentages.

 

[StFly]

I left the game early because my lift wanted to. I honestly cannot find any positives out of that game besides the big one that I mentioned originally in that it now forces Lyon to change.

Not about you, about the thread tone more so. People seem to waste no time after a loss to go about dripping venom like Raph not being good enough to play for Richmond, should have been delisted last year, should... hell, even has a thread on the main board as if he was the only player being sub par tonight? The tones immediately set that the following is then going to be a biased whinge about why X person hates Raph Clarke because in 60mins he might not have done much.

Perspective much in such situations?

Your post was littered with singling players out, another thread is made with who to drop and suddenly shits hit the fan, we're spoon favourites and zomg that sky is looking mighty low.

We had several players rotated around to try and plug gaps, switch it up, try and find some spark to something. The problem was that there were many players playing below par, so wherever you moved them their lack of confidence just oozed regardless. Should Lyon drop them? Should he drop half the side? Is that a question that even needs to be asked?

If targeting any coach, Tudor might have more of a target on explaining than Ross does. If targeting a player, the leadership group might have more explaining to do for displaying very little of it (leadership), yet instead;

Drop Raph (usual suspect)
Drop Dawson (usual suspect)
Drop Blake (maligned)
Drop Kosi (maligned)

And it just becomes a tiresome rhetoric. Replace them with who? What do they need to work on? How long should you give them to try and make good? Nothing is addressed and you're not seeking improvement, you're not seeking answers, you're merely looking for escape routes.

At least, that's my interpretation of this discussion thus far.

 

[samwise]

too clumsy, horrible disposal and ultimately turns the ball over too often. he needs to lose the arrogance and play the percentages.

Id rather just drop Dawson and Gwilt and have Gilbert Gram and Fisher back there so he doesnt have to use it. He is a good defender.
Out King, Dawson, Gwilt
In Stanley Armitage Peake

 

[DarrenR]

Why are the usual suspects the usual suspects?

Because their mediocrity makes them stand out. If they are not good enough to be in the team, why play players that wont develop futher? St.Kilda is not a young team, you develop players, give them opportunities to improve.

It is the current short sightedness that caused us to pass on Barlow. Imagine if we realised our weaknesses and sought to correct them.

Does anyone believe that Kosi would kick a bag, even in the Sandy 2nds?
If he gets dropped and his performance for Sandy determines his return, u wont see him again.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Not a troll, so please don't card me mods.

Here's my take.

Unlike 08 ( which was domainted by the Hawks and Cats ) and 09 ( dominated by The Cats and your mob ), this year the race is wide open as there are probably 4 teams who can win it in St Kilda, Geelong, Collingwood and Fremantle. I think Geelong and St Kilda have come back to the pack quite a bit but you are still a top 4 contender and a genuine flag threat.

An interesting thing is you're only missing Roo out of your best 22, so there probably wasn't any excuses for a 10 goal thumping from Carlton. I think your gameplan has been figured out a bit, not quite to the extent Hawthorns has since 08, but nevertheless teams can expose your lack of pace and run and carry through your defensive setup.

The games you win are the games played on your own terms. You grind teams into submission and basically strangle their ball movement. When you play the game on your own terms you can beat any side in the comp.

However on the flipside, when teams run, take the game on and take a lot of the physicality out of it, your weaknesses can get exposed, as happened tonight.

I wouldn't read too much into it, as I think Carlton caught you unawares but at the same time, if you get beaten that exact same way like Carlton did tonight. And like Essendon did last year, then your foot speed could become a real concern, as there will be a pattern emerging with St Kildas inability to handle genuinely quick sides.

For the time being write it off, don't lose any sleep over it and feel safe in the knowledge you're still one of a handful who can win it this year

 

[Catsace]

Carlton did the same to us. They are a very quick side, and probably yourselves and Geelong are not quite as fleet of foot, we perhaps have more structure than Carlton. As we found out with an unfit Rooke, and having Blake, Ottens, Hawkins, Mooney, Lonergan, Milburn, Pods and co in the same side on that occasion we were run off our feet, just like you were tonight.

I reckon just next time you play Carlton, as we hopefully will, you go in with a smaller side. King and Gardiner along with Kosi were just not really factors when you needed to try and find a matchup for 'the three Amigos' and plus the likes of Simpson, Judd etc. Too much tall timber means the smalls are needed on the ground more, thus less rotation possibilities. Reckon when you and us play Carlton next time, their plan and game style will not be as much a surprise as it was to us first time around.

 

[StFly]

Players are marred by individual performances in a team orientated game, if a player gets run down because he has no viable options to dish off too is he hated if his clanger turnes into a goal, hated if his free against turns into a goal and is in an unwinnable situation. No claim is leveled against the nearest teammates who did not provodie options, no plaudits for trying to be proactive and take the game on, just venom.

The usual suspects are by and large these types of players who get caught out in part by poor situations they get themselves and in part by the laziness of their teammates.

This is why we value Rooey, when he comes off he's to the point of vomiting because he works harder off the ball than he does with it. Raph is this kind of player, he takes the game on, he tries to draw the opposition to him to free up others so he can spot a target, when it works and they spread for him he plays well, when they don't he then runs into trouble and people blame him for even trying to begin with.

Fisher was crap tonight, why has no one singled him out for dropping yet?
Jones shanked it somethign stupid and couldn't shut a vault tonight, why isn't anyone dropping him yet?

Because they're not the usual suspects or maligned, not like that forward who's reliant upon other people, or that backman who played a better game than Dal Santo. But hey sure, let's drop them instead based on the performance yeah?

That's why it doesn't work, you let your bias get in the way of what the team dished out because you're far too focused on the usual suspects rather than thinking in parts.

 

[TheLastEmperor]

Players are marred by individual performances in a team orientated game, if a player gets run down because he has no viable options to dish off too is he hated if his clanger turnes into a goal, hated if his free against turns into a goal and is in an unwinnable situation. No claim is leveled against the nearest teammates who did not provodie options, no plaudits for trying to be proactive and take the game on, just venom.

The usual suspects are by and large these types of players who get caught out in part by poor situations they get themselves and in part by the laziness of their teammates.

This is why we value Rooey, when he comes off he's to the point of vomiting because he works harder off the ball than he does with it. Raph is this kind of player, he takes the game on, he tries to draw the opposition to him to free up others so he can spot a target, when it works and they spread for him he plays well, when they don't he then runs into trouble and people blame him for even trying to begin with.

Fisher was crap tonight, why has no one singled him out for dropping yet?
Jones shanked it somethign stupid and couldn't shut a vault tonight, why isn't anyone dropping him yet?

Because they're not the usual suspects or maligned, not like that forward who's reliant upon other people, or that backman who played a better game than Dal Santo. But hey sure, let's drop them instead based on the performance yeah?

That's why it doesn't work, you let your bias get in the way of what the team dished out because you're far too focused on the usual suspects rather than thinking in parts.

disagree. saints fans are forgiving of players that have the odd bad night. dal santo, jones and fisher have been fantastic all year. they played horrible last night but we know through their consistency that they'll be back playing great footy this year. blokes like clarke and dawson have played that many poor games of footy that fans are just over it. it gets exaggerated in a loss but nevertheless it's warranted.

 

[Squizz]

saints fans are forgiving of players that have the odd bad night. dal santo, jones and fisher have been fantastic all year. they played horrible last night but we know through their consistency that they'll be back playing great footy this year.

Yep - agree with that.

 

[SAINTsincebirth]

Ross tried alot of things last night that didn't work. not going to single out players as a ten goal smashing is a team effort, not single players.
Our leg speed is not an issue if we attack with the ball,all teams look slow when chasing someone else. I remember watching coll beat geel a couple of years ago and thinking they looked so quick, but knew they were not. I think we actually missed armo mongrel last night.
Our forward line is not working which is causing hesitation in our ball movement which then compounds the problem. I'm surprised how easy kozi is getting bumped out in marking contests.
Gwilts game in the back line was good considering how the ball was coming in. he beat his man on several of occasions which not many of the others did.
unfortunately when players like fisher,dal,joey etc go missing its hard to keep things rolling.
Again though we were butchered by the umpires early on which didn't help. we which didn't allow us to get back into it, even though we would never have won.

 

[salim malik]

You guys were crucified by dodgy umpire non calls last night
I know you wouldnt like to use it as an excuse but your momentum was killed so many times by the umps and you could see the frustation and confusion in your players faces
Easily worst umpires performance of the year

 

[BrianSpeaking]

It gets worse....5 day break then a quick Essendon team.

In Ross we trust, lots of time left but our tackling and pressure has been down this year.

 

[Jackyboy]

King out
Clarke out
Dawson out

McEvoy in
Stanley in
Peake in
Armotige in
Heyne in

Baker - Blake - Gilbert
Goddard - Fisher - Gwilt
Montagne - Hayes - Gram
Armotige - Stanley - Schnider
Milne - Kosi - Heyne

Gardiner - DalSanto - Jones

Stevens - McEvoy - Ray - Peake

-Rotate Kosi into the ruck and put Gardiner FF
-Rotate Gardiner and McEvoy off bench and Kosi
-Rotate the onball off the bench.. Montagne, Hayes, DalSanto, Jones, Armo, Goddard.... with Peake Gram and Ray going onto wings, Half Backs ect... need to run more people through the mid but not all these light framed blokes like gram ect.. keep them off half back and wings...
-Back Structure:
Blake, Baker, bring in another small quick for lockdown role (maybe a steven or geary or mcqualter) and a lesser extent Gwilt as lockdown defenders...
Fisher, Goddard, Gilbert, Gram to run off
-Forward Structure:
Stanley to use his pace and athleticism to run around the ground up to the middle and wear out opponent talls out. Armo to add muscle to attack. Milne/Schnider Crumbers. Kosi High ball to one on one. Heyne small lead up player between 30-60mtrs out...

Our key thing is our defense has too many that run off... Blake and Baker are lockdown but baker is a little slow so we need one more small-med size nimble quick lockdown small to take those yarran types...

Our Forward line will appreciate what Stanley brings in structure wise and with heyne as a lead up type. kosi the long ball and stay home with milne and schnider dangerous... armo to keep the pressure on up forward...

Midfield is alot reliant on Hayes.. he is the ticker in there... armo needs to be brought in to help get the tough ball.. jones needs to be a little harder aswell.. we have our outlets in Dal and Monty aswell as others who will rotate through like goddard ect so need to keep one of the likes of Hayes, Armo or Jones in there at one time... need that grunt... Dal and Monty need to step up in terms of ledership in there.. talk, blocks, plans to break down the other midfield ect.. seems Hayes does alot of this and get the impression Dal just says i'll run here...

Rucks to rotate Gardiner and McEvoy off the bench... Gardiner can go to FF at times but not McEvoy... Kosi to go in there aswell to get more touch and involvement and maybe a little more mobility to the role... Stanley also can be thrown in but minimally...


Anyway that's my take on it but were all good armchair experts aren't we...

ps. please ignore spelling and any grammar mistakes as i can't be ****ed going through it due to writing this at work...

Peace
Jacky

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Where are we at?
We haven't lost like that since 2006, so we are at the level that resulted in Grant Thomas getting the sack.

I'm a bit dumbfounded as to how all of the players can turn to spuds at one.
Sam Fisher has been a dream team favorite of mine since I started, I don't think he's ever got a score as low as he did last night.
DalSanto, Gilbert and Gram accidently got into the Valium instead of the performance enhancing stuff.
Since when is Baker so unaware of things around him?

Take these players out and who's going to win it for us.
Not Geary and Steven.
Not Raph , he's not a game winner.
Lenny can't do everything.

How is it explained? Did they do extra heavy training last week or something, thinking that the extended break would give them time to recover?

I thought that King and Gardiner were alright/ up to expectation , King did OK in the ruck, but it didn't stop the Blues getting the clearances.
Kosi seemed to show some promise at the start of the game, I liked seeing him crash onto the scene, but can he take a mark?
Can any of our players take a contested mark ( OK Gilbert and BJ can) ? It seems that we bat it forward all the time. This can be a good tactic when used wisely, but it seemed that Carlton caught onto it and we ended up batting it to them.

I can't bag Milne and Schneider, both made good efforts and Milne was playing good defensively. Thought that Gwilt and Blake were OK as well.

Was Fisher playing on Houlihan? Why?
Was Raph playing on Garlett?

Can we blame the whole thing on Robert Harvey for teaching the Blues to play footy?

 

[Alpha Male]

I posted this in the Luke Ball thread on the main board -

If anything I try to be an honest, accountable poster on this site.

I am here to admit that during the 3rd quarter last night, as I watched Judd go ballistic on a clearly knackered Hayes, I though to myself "Gee we miss Lukey Ball"

We have a soft draw this year so hopefully we can win enough games to finish top four with Roo coming back. This year though that might mean playing in Perth, Sydney or Brisbane.

I'm going to call it now. If the Bombers get within 3 goals, or even manage to beat us, then zone footy in the AFL is nigh on dead. Hawthorn, Adelaide and the Saints are just too damn slow. Sydney realised this and picked up the right players to overhaul the game style. Freo too.

What I wouldn't give to have Luke Ball and pick 16 (Geez Jetta would be nice about now...)

I still hold out hope of getting that elusive flag but the hope is slowly dimming