Should Dean Bailey be suspended from all AFL activities...

[Wonaeamirri33]

Keithy, Demonheart, KLTH, Lord Travis, Captain C, Mr Pez and the other loyal Demons who have responded to this cowardly nonsense summed it up perfectly.

All of us who love our club and HATE these hysterical and gutless "tanking" claims being made against us are sick of seeing these unjustified and fantastical conspiracy notions, dreamt up by people like "Valve Bounce" and his fellow-travellers.

Not even on Bay 13, but on the MAIN BOARD too

Here are a couple of intelligent quotes from another loyal Demon which sum things up nicely:

We have nothing to play for right now, it is just like a NAB Regional Challenge match as far as we are concerned. Have you ever seen how those are played? Lots of players are selected out of position so that the coach can find out more about the player. It is great for a player’s development to put them into new situations and you can learn a lot by how the player will deal with that situation. Bailey didn’t coach to lose, he coached to find out more about his players.

I don’t know what sort of knowledge you have of our club, but I will explain something to you. We have a huge number of tall backs and we don’t have enough tall forwards. Throwing players like Frawley, Warnock and Martin down there gives Dean an opportunity to see if he may be able to develop one of them as a forward. You can’t blame Dean for experimenting for the future, as we have nothing to play for this season.

Sylvia has had a reputation of being a bit of a loose cannon in the past. He just got suspended for 3 weeks for being stupid. Bailey was just trying to teach him that those sort of acts will not be tolerated in the future (so he gave him further punishment). The Demons are not tanking and if you think they are then you obviously didn’t watch the match against the Tigers. We were in front when the final siren went FFS.

Planning for the future and testing out players is completely different to trying to lose.

And moreover, it's a slap in the face to all the guys who played their guts out for us on the weekend to say otherwise.

Not that the facts matter when you're dealing with an axe-grinding troll like "Valve Bounce", of course.

 

[devil demon]

Short answer: Yes

One very disappointed demons supporter signing out

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Obviously I wasn't including him in the category of those loyal Melbourne supporters standing up for our coach and for the Melbourne Football Club in this thread

I know we have one or two people who seem to want to turn on the club like this... I guess they're entitled to their opinion, I just wish they didn't have to be so bloody vocal about it.

It just embarrasses the rest of us when posts like the previous one are made.

And some more observations about the game that thoroughly contradict the aforementioned bile from DD:

Regarding Dean Bailey's selection decisions on the weekend, well, Newton and PJ would have been on the bench for the whole of the last quarter if there had been room- DB had to hide them somewhere.

Warnock & Frawley added valuable quality to an insipid forward line, and showed enough to be able to take up such roles when we need them to in more important games down the track.

Bate had 23 possessions in the midfield, from memory, and Miller had 9 in the second half (after only 2 in the first half), Dunn had 13 in the second half after 5 in the first half.

So yeah, Dean Bailey got it RIGHT moving these players as he did!

These were inspired moves that could have won us the game, even with only 19 (possibly 18) fit players in the last quarter, which allowed us only 4 rotations for the whole quarter. The players left nothing on the field, they gave everything and did us proud, nearly pulling off an impossible win that no so-called "expert" had predicted, against all the odds.

Whatever moves Bailey did do, or didn't do, he would have been accused of tanking. If Bailey had just left everybody in their first half positions - now THAT would have been tanking!

I'll end now with a quote from another LOYAL Demon that matches my own thoughts nicely:

Anybody sitting there accusing our coach of "wanting his players to lose" is a f&%$ing moron and no better than the journo's who play up this tanking cr*$ so they can fill spaces in the newspaper.

Forget the "questionable" moves; No matter what Bailey did yesterday the equation would still be the same:

Demons loss = Tanking talk.

Leave it to the media.

 

[AllStar7]

We are one step closer to scoring ourselves not one, but two of the best kids in the country, including a guy being compared to a young Chris Judd, so all of you whingers, and especially bloody Melbourne supporters who are getting on their high horse, go have a cry in the corner with the mediocre brigade.

I have not sat through 40 years of shit to miss out on two of the best kids in the land because Richmond are so bad they can't beat a team that plays Newton in the midfield.

Yes we tanked, of course we tanked, and I'm glad we did.
ANY club in our position, would and have done the same. We just had to really go all out because we had the misfortune of playing Richmond.

If you want to get rid of the PP system, fine, but don't anyone, media included, get on their soapbox and complain that Melbourne are a disgrace for tanking. The system is there to be used, and we will ****ing well use it as we see fit.

Bring on Scully!

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

AllStar, did you even read the information I posted about the effect of Dean's coaching moves before you started in with this "pro-tanking" agenda?

The FACT is, the moves were justified and they were effective. If you think otherwise, then try to argue against what I said about that.

And our injuries are not part of a "conspiracy" either.

You and a group of others might be at fever pitch wanting us to "tank", but I and the vast majority of other Demons fans on BF do NOT, and that is reflected in the postings I've seen.

And I don't consider planning for the future and testing out players in games which have no consequence for us this season to be "tanking". Nor do most others either.

Furthermore, it's just embarrassing (and it pisses me off) especially because posts like the previous one are invariably used by other non-Demons, and especially by trolls, to make it look like you speak for me and supporters like me, but you don't.

 

[AllStar7]

And it's just embarrassing to see these kinds of posts, which are then used by opposition supporters to make it look like you speak for me and supporters like me, because you don't.

You are deluded.

No amount of "oh we're developing kids and experimenting with positions" could explain why our backline, the only strength we have, somehow ended up in the forwardline. You also can't explain why when Grimes started to dominate we took him off or put him up forward, or why Petterd got dragged into the middle the second he kicked one. Or that Newton, the worst football to have ever graced a football field, was left to turn it over on the wing for three quarters. Oh and what about Paul Johnson on Brown? Nobody tagging Cousins? Miller in the ruck? Jones to the forward pocket after playing well in the middle? What about Frawley and Grimes starting every quarter on the bench? Have you ever seen Warnock spend that much time off the ground?


Give it a break, nobody in that coaching box was aiming to win. Our players of course did, and they nearly pulled it off. I am proud of them for that, but I'm even prouder of the fact that this club has finally gotten off its express train to mediocrity and is making the tough decisions that will see us benefit in the long term.

Nobody could convince me that losing yesterday was not the best possible outcome for our club, just as you couldn't convince me that Bailey wasn't pulling moves that would significantly disadvantage us. By some miracle they nearly helped us win (LOL at Jade Rawlings saying we confused him... oh god! ) because Richmond played worse than we did and couldn't hurt us on the scoreboard.

I hope you're not going to blow your load over Scully next year, because that would be extremely hypocritical of you.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

No amount of "oh we're developing kids and experimenting with positions" could explain why our backline, the only strength we have, somehow ended up in the forwardline.

Huh? I just DID explain a number of the moves made. Read what I said on that subject.

And you might want us to "tank" and might consider every single injury, omission or coaching selection to somehow fit into your agenda, but I don't, nor do many other Demons supporters on BF (I'm happy to quote some of the many responses on these subjects if necessary) and I wanted us to WIN.

 

[Giants FC]

Wonaeamirri33 speaks a lot of sense.
A 17 year-old kid, even if he is considered the next Chris Judd, is not going to single-handedly turn around a struggling club with a losing mindset.
The vast majority of Melbourne's list for next year are already at the club. Dean Bailey is playing them in new positions, not because he wants to lose but because he wants the players to find new ways to win. Where the players were playing before wasn't working - they've been on the bottom all season - why not try something new?

 

[ANGEL DARK]

We are one step closer to scoring ourselves not one, but two of the best kids in the country, including a guy being compared to a young Chris Judd, so all of you whingers, and especially bloody Melbourne supporters who are getting on their high horse, go have a cry in the corner with the mediocre brigade.

I have not sat through 40 years of shit to miss out on two of the best kids in the land because Richmond are so bad they can't beat a team that plays Newton in the midfield.

Yes we tanked, of course we tanked, and I'm glad we did.
ANY club in our position, would and have done the same. We just had to really go all out because we had the misfortune of playing Richmond.

If you want to get rid of the PP system, fine, but don't anyone, media included, get on their soapbox and complain that Melbourne are a disgrace for tanking. The system is there to be used, and we will ****ing well use it as we see fit.

Bring on Scully!

Its disappointing to read idiot posters like yourself happy to see your own club loosing games.Ask yourself this? Do you really think Scully is going to be the answer to all your problems? Yes sure he will help but in reality Melbourne need at least 10 Scullys if you want to be up there challenging to make finals in the next 3-4 years and i cant see that happening in a hurry so enjoy your priority pick if you get it and it makes you happy but one thing a priority pick doesnt guarentee you is ultimate success and youll need a lot more to go right for your hapless Demons before you can even think about being a successful side

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Well Angel Dark - I think you were trolling us a lot there (especially with the LUDICROUS "10 Scullys" comment).

Fact is, I believe we'll be challenging for finals NEXT year, and we SHOULD have been challenging for finals THIS year, were it not for the fact that we've had between a third & half of our best 22 out most of the season.

And, as I and many other Demons supporters are at pains to point out- the MAJORITY of us are NOT "pro-tankers" and would not advocate "tanking" in a pink fit.

Wonaeamirri33 speaks a lot of sense.
A 17 year-old kid, even if he is considered the next Chris Judd, is not going to single-handedly turn around a struggling club with a losing mindset.
The vast majority of Melbourne's list for next year are already at the club. Dean Bailey is playing them in new positions, not because he wants to lose but because he wants the players to find new ways to win. Where the players were playing before wasn't working - they've been on the bottom all season - why not try something new?

Well said G&F, although the main reason we are on the bottom still is because of all the injuries we've had, which cost us, most glaringly, the match on the weekend, as well as the Sydney game, the WCE game at Subi, the Adelaide game at the MCG, and the Bulldogs match at the G.

I am very confident we'd be sitting on 8 wins now if not for that factor... I know I've said that all over BF too.

And yes, as you say, experimentation is justified, especially towards the end of a season where the remaining matches are about as consequential for us as the NAB Regional Challenge.

Also, at least a good number of the moves worked, and were necessary too, especially given our crippling load of injuries at the moment, and the 3 injuries we had during the match, which left us with only 1 on the interchange in the final quarter.

 

[AllStar7]

I'm glad that most people here don't think we tanked, it makes it easier for us to keep doing it.

If you think Scully won't help us climb up the ladder, it's because you haven't seen enough of him and you don't know our list well enough.
We are missing two gun midfielders to complete what has been a massive rebuild. Those two midfielders will come from picks 1 and 2, or 1 and 3.
I never said that Scully or any other pick is going to win us a premiership, but they'll help. In our position, losing is the absolute best thing we can do for our future.

For anyone who feels like judging me as a supporter, go for your life. It doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what I think. All that matters is that come draft day, we have the opportunity to take the two best kids. That will be the silver lining to what we've been through in the past 3 years. Glad we're not looking like throwing it all away for some irrelevant victories.

I can't believe any Melbourne supporter honestly thinks we are where we are because of injuries. We are where we are because we're a team relying on kids to help us win. Our senior players are crap and all of our talented is found in physically underdeveloped, inexperienced youth.
Injuries or no injuries, we would not be anywhere near the top 8 this year. And by the way, go read Melbourne fan sites to get some other views on the tanking debate. Plenty of people over there were happy to lose that game and they justify their position very well.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Well I know I hate how you are misrepresenting the position of the club and the players in these instances, and that you seem to be pretty much ignoring every argument and fact which doesn't fit your agenda.

The assertion that we would NEVER have been anywhere near making finals this year without the injuries we've had is LAUGHABLE.

We lost by 7 points against WCE at Subi (at just over half-strength), lost by 17 points against Adelaide at the 'G (also at just over half-strength), lost by 8 points against the Bulldogs at the 'G (at about two-thirds strength), lost by 18 against Sydney (again, at about half-strength) and lost by the tiniest of margins against Richmond with even more players sidelined through injury.

FACT.

Moreover, I really don't like that the majority of us on BF, who AREN'T in favour of "tanking", get tarred with the same brush by others as a result of posts like this. because we DO, and it's not fair at all.

What people say on other forums is their own opinion, the fact is that here, the majority of us simply do not agree with this notion and never will.

 

[The Panther]

Will be interesting to see if Melbourne's membership falls or rises next year.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Well hopefully membership does continue to rise in the same way it has been, and the reputation of the club is not damaged by all the wrong-headed negativity being put out there from certain quarters about us atm.

 

[Ebert80]

AFL should just say they have reviewed games over the last few weeks and they believe the temptation for clubs to not give their side every chance to win brings the game into disrepute and in order to remove that temptation effective immediately they will be removing the priority pick from the draft.

So the AFL would make a finding that it has brought itself into disrepute.

 

[ANGEL DARK]

Well Angel Dark - I think you were trolling us a lot there (especially with the LUDICROUS "10 Scullys" comment).

Fact is, I believe we'll be challenging for finals NEXT year, and we SHOULD have been challenging for finals THIS year, were it not for the fact that we've had between a third & half of our best 22 out most of the season.

And, as I and many other Demons supporters are at pains to point out- the MAJORITY of us are NOT "pro-tankers" and would not advocate "tanking" in a pink fit.



Well said G&F, although the main reason we are on the bottom still is because of all the injuries we've had, which cost us, most glaringly, the match on the weekend, as well as the Sydney game, the WCE game at Subi, the Adelaide game at the MCG, and the Bulldogs match at the G.

I am very confident we'd be sitting on 8 wins now if not for that factor... I know I've said that all over BF too.

And yes, as you say, experimentation is justified, especially towards the end of a season where the remaining matches are about as consequential for us as the NAB Regional Challenge.

Also, at least a good number of the moves worked, and were necessary too, especially given our crippling load of injuries at the moment, and the 3 injuries we had during the match, which left us with only 1 on the interchange in the final quarter.

Definately not trolling Wona.Just giving you the cold hard facts.You are simply deluded if you think Melbourne should be challenging for finals as early as next year or should have been this year and using excuses for not having your best players out there for most of the season is laughable.
You clearly rate your players far higher than anyone who has any sense does and as it stands now your at least 10 good players short of being a finals side which is a long way off.I would say your still at least 4 -5 years away from playing finals providing you develop some young kids soon and recruit well over the next few years which is a more realistic time frame than what your suggesting

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Well Angel, if you're not trolling and you seriously believe what you're saying, then I suspect you'll have a big shock next year, as long as we don't end up with close on half our best 22 injured a lot of the time again.

Because if we hadn't had those injuries, we'd be sitting on 8 wins right now and would've had a damn good chance to play finals this year even.

If you'd seen us play in more other matches aside from our shocking effort at the Gabba - for instance, the game against WCE at Subi, the Adelaide match, the Bulldogs & WCE games, and the Port Adelaide one at the MCG, to name a few examples, you'd probably have a better idea what I'm talking about here....

 

[ANGEL DARK]

Well Angel, if you're not trolling and you seriously believe what you're saying, then I suspect you'll have a big shock next year, as long as we don't end up with close on half our best 22 injured a lot of the time again.

Because if we hadn't had those injuries, we'd be sitting on 8 wins right now and would've had a damn good chance to play finals this year even.

If you'd seen us play in more other matches aside from our shocking effort at the Gabba - for instance, the game against WCE at Subi, the Adelaide match, the Bulldogs & WCE games, and the Port Adelaide one at the MCG, to name a few examples, you'd probably have a better idea what I'm talking about here....

How could you possibly suggest that without your so called injuries you would be sitting on 8 wins now.You havnt got a crystal ball and no one as far as i know can predict what would have happened if this or if that happened.Your opinions are based purely on speculation only so what ifs dont count because in reality youll never know so its not worth bringing it up.Every team has injuries as well and its part of the game and clubs need to deal with them although i suspect the injuries you are referring to arnt to gun players anyway because you simply havnt got many
Wake up and smell the roses buddy because footy is not about what ifs

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

How could you possibly suggest that without your so called injuries you would be sitting on 8 wins now.

Well that would be because we lost those games, in three cases, by a goal or less, and in the other two cases, by only three goals.

And we've had many of our best 22 out either for the entirety of those games, or for a large proportion of them, as with the WCE game at Subiaco, when 2 of our best defenders were sidelined due to injury before half time, and the Richmond game, where THREE of our players were injured during the game and couldn't return.

So yes, that's how.

the injuries you are referring to arnt to gun players anyway because you simply havnt got many

Again, you can't have seen much of us if you're saying that.

Try Liam Jurrah, Jack Grimes, Brock McLean, James Frawley, Mark Jamar, Austin Wonaeamirri, Brad Green, Colin Garland, John Meesen, Kyle Cheney... no gun players out through injury -yeah, right. Sure!

Our injury list: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/injury%20list/tabid/8752/default.aspx

SEVENTEEN of our squad out injured at the moment.

 

[ANGEL DARK]

Well that would be because we lost those games, in three cases, by a goal or less, and in the other two cases, by only three goals.

And we've had many of our best 22 out either for the entirety of those games, or for a large proportion of them, as with the WCE game at Subiaco, when 2 of our best defenders were sidelined due to injury before half time, and the Richmond game, where THREE of our players were injured during the game and couldn't return.

So yes, that's how.



Again, you can't have seen much of us if you're saying that.

Try Liam Jurrah, Jack Grimes, Brock McLean, James Frawley, Mark Jamar, Austin Wonaeamirri, Brad Green, Colin Garland, John Meesen, Kyle Cheney... no gun players out through injury -yeah, right. Sure!

Our injury list: http://www.melbournefc.com.au/injury list/tabid/8752/default.aspx

SEVENTEEN of our squad out injured at the moment.

Just because you lost close games doesnt automatically mean you would of won them had you had those players in.The fact is you really dont know because its all hypothethetical so its not worth talking about.
Liam Jurrah has only played a few games and your already calling him a gun.Kyle Cheney has been in and out of the side all year and your calling him a gun.Fair dinkum mate you need to get a clue and stop overating your players into something they are not.Out of all those players you mentioned i rate Green,Grimes and Mclean as just good players.They are not guns by any stretch and the rest of the players you mentioned are nowhere near gun players and the sooner you realise this the more realistic you can be about your club

 

[Valve Bounce]

Melbourne Greats join in condemning tanking tactics

THE tanking furore gathered force yesterday as Melbourne legend Robbie Flower urged the AFL to abandon priority picks, Ron Barassi slammed tanking, and bookmakers claimed betting markets were compromised. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25877874-19742,00.html
Reports of Melbourne fans gleefully singing the Richmond theme song on Sunday were "really disappointing".

And a Melbourne bookmaker has suspended betting on the wooden spoon since round 16 because of tanking.

Only Demetriou believes there is no such thing as tanking, and no need to review or investigate this phenomenon, or take any action as Tanking doesn't occur.

Nevertheless, I refuse to link Patrick Smith's article in the Australian, as I think the guy is a nagging old bugger.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Out of all those players you mentioned i rate Green,Grimes and Mclean as just good players

Well Angel, although you obviously believe what you're saying, you're still not right here.

The only explanation I can come up with for your responses is that you haven't really seen much of our team this year or last year.

And I haven't even mentioned Brent Moloney yet either- also out with a groin injury, and he's had his best season yet for us. He's been brilliant.

Jack Grimes & Liam Jurrah are Rising Star nominees, and we confidently expect Grimes to make the top 3 this year. Jurrah has had a fantastic start to his career, as I'd reckon pretty much anyone who's been watching us would know.

Brad Green is arguably just about the best set shot in the league! And Brock McLean was exceptional last year until his LTI due to knee problems. Once he fully recovers, he'll come back to that level again.

And Austin Wonaeamirri... where do I begin? He's inspirational, and was 2nd on the goalscoring for us in his first season (and didn't even play a full season!)

Colin Garland was our BEST defender last year, as James Frawley has been this year.

Mark Jamar and John Meesen are our best ruck pairing as far as I can see, and Jamar has won EVERY ruck duel he's had this season!

So yeah, we've got a LOT of good players injured right now.

This of course isn't including the players that are still available at the moment, but I'd be more than willing to go through them as well for you.

And I'll confidently back my own knowledge on these things, as someone who watches the Melbourne Football Club week in, week out.

 

[Wonaeamirri33]

Re: Melbourne Greats join in condemning tanking tactics

THE tanking furore gathered force yesterday as Melbourne legend Robbie Flower urged the AFL to abandon priority picks, Ron Barassi slammed tanking, and bookmakers claimed betting markets were compromised.

And this is supposed to be "evidence" that we're "tanking" is it "Valve"?

Your tone and content reveal your true nature... as was the case at the START of this thread.

How utterly stupid a thing to say on the main board, to assert that the AFL should "ban" our coach for making moves during a match which actually ended up WORKING.

You are a TROLL, pure and simple.

Take it to Bay 13, if you want to troll us!

 

[Valve Bounce]

Gary Lyon

.................and Gary Lyon joins in: http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/priority-picks-harming-game/2009/08/03/1249152558481.html

Lyon said he had found himself in a ‘‘shocking’’ position of willing the team to lose on occasion and it upset him to hear that Melbourne supporters were ‘‘singing the Richmond club song after the game’’.

‘‘I get shitty with the AFL mate, that’s how I feel,’’ said Lyon. ‘‘I get shitty that I’ve heard Melbourne supporters were cheering and clapping and singing the Richmond club song after the game.

‘‘That makes me shitty and when I first heard the scores, when I heard Melbourne were ahead in the last quarter, I said ‘What’s going on here, what are we doing?’ That’s a horrible position to find yourself in as a footy supporter.’’

Lyon summed up his feelings about the Melbourne-Richmond game in the reaction of his son to the former champion ‘‘moaning’’ when the Demons kicked goals during the contentious game.

‘‘A 13-year-old in the car, having played junior footy and you’re sort of moaning about Melbourne kicking a goal, and he’s looking at you going, ‘What are you dad? What are you doing?’ You try and explain that to him.

 

[Valve Bounce]

Re: Melbourne Greats join in condemning tanking tactics

And this is supposed to be "evidence" that we're "tanking" is it "Valve"?

Your tone and content reveal your true nature... as was the case at the START of this thread.

Take it to Bay 13, if you want to troll us!

Which two words of my post do you disagree with?