Coach So you want Voss gone? Who will replace him and why would they want to coach Carlton?

[CarmenSandiego]

I want Voss to stay. We just need him to hit some luck because it wont be on purpose.

It rarely, if ever is on purpose, no matter what bullshit is spun.

At the end of 2016, Richmond admitted their rebuild was only based around making the finals, they weren't building for flag contention at all - they didn't think the supporter base had the patience for a full rebuild.

AFL 2016: Richmond Tigers concede they are 'paying the price' for list strategy

Richmond football department boss Dan Richardson has admitted the Tigers are "paying a price" for going down the path of seeking mature-age players, revealing they had felt supporters would not accept an eight-year rebuild.

www.theage.com.au

Then, bang - players hit their straps and they win 3 flags in 4 years. They never 'planned' that, they just did the best they could with what was in front of them and it all clicked in 2017 when nobody expected them to do anything, once that monkey was off that groups back nothing was stopping them.

No way Collingwood thought they would be in flag contention in 2022, they sensed the momentum and ran with it all the way until the end of 2023.

Geelong just play the numbers game and try to be in contention every year until luck falls their way & other teams drop off.

The closest thing to planned success I can think of is Hawthorn under Clarko, but even then, pinching one early in 2009 got the ball rolling for that group.

I really think if we're any hope of succeeding with this group, we need a Richmond 2017 year. They were a good H&A team who got a run on in the back end of the year, finishing 3rd. Went into every final as non-favorites, so had nothing to lose which was perfect for them - as they were mentally fragile having EF losses every year. Fair few similarities between them and us.

 

[Michael Jezz]

2025 is a tipping point, the club could go either way to top 4 or fall out of the 8. The prime learning from 2024 is contest and pressure alone can not win a premiership. It is too reliant on effort over system. Therefore I don't think this generation can win a flag. It is doubtful they can relearn a game plan with stars in their late 20s. However is it Voss or is it that he built the plan around the players he had. Lloyd and Austin are more culpable in my opinion. Voss stays for 1 or 2 more years but without a top 4 finish he is a dead man walking. He has never surrounded himself with the right people. I suspect the players will check out, if the contest and pressure mantra does not produce wins. It tends to lead to winning runs and losing streaks. The next losing streak will kill the group mentally. The solution is to start the radical, on & off field change management now. I Voss wants a long tenure he needs to demand radical change

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

It is doubtful they can relearn a game plan with stars in their late 20s

Why? Old dogs can't learn new tricks? That's been disproven. Wtf do you mean professionals can't learn a gameplan because they're 28.....

 

[Jatz]

Why? Old dogs can't learn new tricks? That's been disproven. Wtf do you mean professionals can't learn a gameplan because they're 28.....

I don't think it's they can't learn it, more they're not suited to it. The list has been built a certain way and it unfortunately looks like that won't be enough.

 

[Stamos]

It rarely, if ever is on purpose, no matter what bullshit is spun.

At the end of 2016, Richmond admitted their rebuild was only based around making the finals, they weren't building for flag contention at all - they didn't think the supporter base had the patience for a full rebuild.

AFL 2016: Richmond Tigers concede they are 'paying the price' for list strategy

Richmond football department boss Dan Richardson has admitted the Tigers are "paying a price" for going down the path of seeking mature-age players, revealing they had felt supporters would not accept an eight-year rebuild.

www.theage.com.au

Then, bang - players hit their straps and they win 3 flags in 4 years. They never 'planned' that, they just did the best they could with what was in front of them and it all clicked in 2017 when nobody expected them to do anything, once that monkey was off that groups back nothing was stopping them.

No way Collingwood thought they would be in flag contention in 2022, they sensed the momentum and ran with it all the way until the end of 2023.

Geelong just play the numbers game and try to be in contention every year until luck falls their way & other teams drop off.

The closest thing to planned success I can think of is Hawthorn under Clarko, but even then, pinching one early in 2009 got the ball rolling for that group.

I really think if we're any hope of succeeding with this group, we need a Richmond 2017 year. They were a good H&A team who got a run on in the back end of the year, finishing 3rd. Went into every final as non-favorites, so had nothing to lose which was perfect for them - as they were mentally fragile having EF losses every year. Fair few similarities between them and us.

Good post.
And Hawthorn definitely pinched 2008.
But then they languished for 3 years (9th, 7th straight out, 3rd L-W-L), when they were expected to be better, and lost to Sydney in 2012, before they hit their run.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I don't think it's they can't learn it, more they're not suited to it. The list has been built a certain way and it unfortunately looks like that won't be enough.

Eh I'm not convinced with this either.

The Hawks midfield is slower than ours man for man, smaller and also has less endurance beasts...

Worpel Newcomb etc are not fast. Not endurance monsters. We have running machines on the wing too. Honestly this list can play like that - maybe some caveats whether we're strong rebounding or playing front half in an ideal world and setup but there's no shortage of runners and speed. I find it concerning. Cinc, Saad, Cowan, kemp, acres, Walsh, gov, Harry, tdk etc etc are all fast for their positions or endurance monsters or both. There's more too. Cripps is probably one of the faster 'bulls' in the league these days too. Has real burst.

I think we just look slow for 4
reasons...
1. Setups - stoppage and general play
2. Playing under constant huge levels of fatigue that are greater than our opponents. We aren't unfit but we playunder higher fatigue levels
3. Confusion and low confidence
4. Playing inside midfielders at half back and third tall forward and outside mids inside the stoppage.


Maybe I've misread it completely but that stands out to me as why we appear slow

 

[jj1978]

Sometimes a bit of heat on the coach publicly is not a bad thing.

Mick 2010 told he has 2 years that's it. 3 grand-finals in 2 years, 1 premiership.

Hinkley this year, heat starts to mount, publicly some things are said, 9 out of 10 wins. Last year we had heat on Voss after our dismal first half we win 9 straight make a prelim.

Let's not cradle and hug him too much. He's paid well to do a job in my eyes if 2025 continues to reap inconsistent fluctuations throughout the season questions on moving him on should become very serious.

 

[Stamos]

Eh I'm not convinced with this either.

The Hawks midfield is slower than ours man for man, smaller and also has less endurance beasts...

Worpel Newcomb etc are not fast. Not endurance monsters. We have running machines on the wing too. Honestly this list can play like that - maybe some caveats whether we're strong rebounding or playing front half in an ideal world and setup but there's no shortage of runners and speed. I find it concerning. Cinc, Saad, Cowan, kemp, acres, Walsh, gov, Harry, tdk etc etc are all fast for their positions or endurance monsters or both. There's more too. Cripps is probably one of the faster 'bulls' in the league these days too. Has real burst.

I think we just look slow for 4
reasons...
1. Setups - stoppage and general play
2. Playing under constant huge levels of fatigue that are greater than our opponents. We aren't unfit but we playunder higher fatigue levels
3. Confusion and low confidence
4. Playing inside midfielders at half back and third tall forward and outside mids inside the stoppage.


Maybe I've misread it completely but that stands out to me as why we appear slow

We are a slow team.
Part of it is the pace of our players, part of it is workrate of some of our players, part of it is how we set up (whether how instructed, or against instruction), part of it is how we stuff up some of the basics, which means everything is fractions of a second behind where it should be.
Part of it is injury and fatigue. Even just Charlie, how much faster are we when he's fit and in form?

A lot of it fixable in a pre-season.
Especially if we can find only 1 or 2 players with genuine pace.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

We are a slow team.
Part of it is the pace of our players, part of it is workrate of some of our players, part of it is how we set up (whether how instructed, or against instruction), part of it is how we stuff up some of the basics, which means everything is fractions of a second behind where it should be.
Part of it is injury and fatigue. Even just Charlie, how much faster are we when he's fit and in form?

A lot of it fixable in a pre-season.
Especially if we can find only 1 or 2 players with genuine pace.

Yeah absolutely not calling us a fast team but making the point that I don't think we are playing like we do because it's the only option for this list.... I really reject that

 

[Jatz]

Yeah absolutely not calling us a fast team but making the point that I don't think we are playing like we do because it's the only option for this list.... I really reject that

You think our current list could move the ball like Hawthorn have? I really can't see that at all. Not without dropping some of our senior players (Hewett and/or Kennedy).

We feel like a very one dimensional football side and I really don't see that changing in an off season.

 

[Stamos]

You think our current list could move the ball like Hawthorn have? I really can't see that at all. Not without dropping some of our senior players (Hewett and/or Kennedy).

We feel like a very one dimensional football side and I really don't see that changing in an off season.

Hawthorn have some fast players, but they are a quick team because they move the ball quickly. Like, they kick it immediately. And they are drilled enough to have players running to the right spots to receive.
It's not because they have fast players all across the field, especially in the midfield.

But, I think we are too slow in the midfield if we have all of Cripps, Hewett and Kennedy.

 

[Michael Jezz]

Why? Old dogs can't learn new tricks? That's been disproven. Wtf do you mean professionals can't learn a gameplan because they're 28.....

It is not impossible but I would want to hear an honest club changing direction

 

[Accidental genius]

Hawthorn have some fast players, but they are a quick team because they move the ball quickly. Like, they kick it immediately. And they are drilled enough to have players running to the right spots to receive.
It's not because they have fast players all across the field, especially in the midfield.

But, I think we are too slow in the midfield if we have all of Cripps, Hewett and Kennedy.

We can’t make good clean connections …that’s one of our biggest issues. How many times have we seen our chain of ball movement to break down by an errant hand pass or kick or the receiver fumbling it?

 

[JustaBattler]

As a generalisation, I think the Carlton list has below average in kicking ability from both defensive 50 and between the arcs. I also think that the players do not 'run lines' to make it easy to move the ball from kick-ins. Teh better teams rarely go from goal square to back pocket as the default move and if they do - players move quickly to provide short options into teh corridor. That part of teh game plan has been awful and continues to be awful- and it dictates the type of entry that can be made ( the dreaded slow long kick down the boundary) - Crlton looks much better when it runs and kicks down the guts- usually confined to a CBB win.


I think that if this pert of the game plan and execution ability could be significantly improved - the so called 'team slowness' would evaporate - since the some slow team has been able to pile on very fast scores against most top line teams previously.

As for defensive running of our slow mids- sorry any midfield looks slow being tuned around by shyte forward fifty defensive capability and easy rebound from the opposition - any and every team cops it the same way and looks equally slow.

Sadly - Carlton is chock a block full of slow small forwards.= and that to me is and has been the achiles heel of Carlton - that and the lack of a genuine 2nd KPD.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

You think our current list could move the ball like Hawthorn have? I really can't see that at all. Not without dropping some of our senior players (Hewett and/or Kennedy).

We feel like a very one dimensional football side and I really don't see that changing in an off season.

We literally did last year after camp Curnow and before we ran out of puff in finals. Acres one armed etc

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Sadly - Carlton is chock a block full of slow small forwards.= and that to me is and has been the achiles heel of Carlton - that and the lack of a genuine 2nd KPD.

Slow / lazy / dumb / shit / perma injured. Take your pick.

 

[JustOneTime]

It rarely, if ever is on purpose, no matter what bullshit is spun.

At the end of 2016, Richmond admitted their rebuild was only based around making the finals, they weren't building for flag contention at all - they didn't think the supporter base had the patience for a full rebuild.

AFL 2016: Richmond Tigers concede they are 'paying the price' for list strategy

Richmond football department boss Dan Richardson has admitted the Tigers are "paying a price" for going down the path of seeking mature-age players, revealing they had felt supporters would not accept an eight-year rebuild.

www.theage.com.au

Then, bang - players hit their straps and they win 3 flags in 4 years. They never 'planned' that, they just did the best they could with what was in front of them and it all clicked in 2017 when nobody expected them to do anything, once that monkey was off that groups back nothing was stopping them.

No way Collingwood thought they would be in flag contention in 2022, they sensed the momentum and ran with it all the way until the end of 2023.

Geelong just play the numbers game and try to be in contention every year until luck falls their way & other teams drop off.

The closest thing to planned success I can think of is Hawthorn under Clarko, but even then, pinching one early in 2009 got the ball rolling for that group.

I really think if we're any hope of succeeding with this group, we need a Richmond 2017 year. They were a good H&A team who got a run on in the back end of the year, finishing 3rd. Went into every final as non-favorites, so had nothing to lose which was perfect for them - as they were mentally fragile having EF losses every year. Fair few similarities between them and us.

I agree to a point and I agree to your recent historical perspective.

But looking at 23/24 and looking more forward, I personally think the game is evolving and its about how you train/strategise transition where previously it was about 7-9 elite players on your list and stumbling across a decent transition plan.

Carlton have the 7-9 elite players previously required but don't have a winning transition plan. A long way off it.

Pies and Hawks are now leading the way meaning sometimes you don't need the best rated 7-9 players or amazing tall forwards (Frampton) because the transition plan is the key ingredient; not like at Carlton where the player (Mckay/Cripps/Curnow/Weitering) is the key ingredient.

Yes people will cite Pies fall off as a transition plan failure (getting worked out) but i think it was more the players letting the Pies down, not the transition strategy; sidebottom/quaynor just 2 examples that came back in terrible shape after the flag (+ losing Murphy) costing them 2024 finals. But if they have a decent off-season and refresh they could be very dangerous again VERY quickly.

I've watched Hawthorn over 4 games (not much i agree) but there are easy / basic strategic things to spot and steal. In those 4 games Moore pretty much whenever he gets the ball takes off no matter what. Some other Hawk players do too and some others don't take off straight away. Carlton could learn a lot from this in a very simple upgrade. There should be an inner group of players pulled aside with a weekly KPI to take off/play on because they have the body strength to shrug a tackle while others dont. It would force movement at the very least. Pretty much all of our players stop or have very low percentage of playing on in the fear they are going to be caught.

Cerra, Saad, Cripps, Acres + 4 more players should all be in an inner group with a KPI to play on more than 75% of their possessions with a knowledge to support each other when one of their group goes. This inner group should have its own training regime on how to survive/implement this. The KPI is either do it, or be replaced by someone who has the courage. This aspect of opening up play should be a non negotiable.

Equally E Hollands can't break a tackle AT ALL and is slow as treacle in traffic. He shouldn't be anywhere near a play on coterie group. The MC have to understand the traits required.

Just one aspect of a transition game Carlton wouldn't even be thinking about implementing on purpose. Carlton are busy training them to kick it high down the wing out of defence and set it up for Cripps/KPF/ruck to win it. If they arent doing this then its even worse than i thought. They have no way to teach their players anything because the output on matchday is high down the line to the wing for Pitto/TDK & Cripps to win a mark/stoppage.

 

[CarmenSandiego]

I agree to a point and I agree to your recent historical perspective.

But looking at 23/24 and looking more forward, I personally think the game is evolving and its about how you train/strategise transition where previously it was about 7-9 elite players on your list and stumbling across a decent transition plan.

Carlton have the 7-9 elite players previously required but don't have a winning transition plan. A long way off it.

Pies and Hawks are now leading the way meaning sometimes you don't need the best rated 7-9 players or amazing tall forwards (Frampton) because the transition plan is the key ingredient; not like at Carlton where the player (Mckay/Cripps/Curnow/Weitering) is the key ingredient.

Yes people will cite Pies fall off as a transition plan failure (getting worked out) but i think it was more the players letting the Pies down, not the transition strategy; sidebottom/quaynor just 2 examples that came back in terrible shape after the flag (+ losing Murphy) costing them 2024 finals. But if they have a decent off-season and refresh they could be very dangerous again VERY quickly.

I've watched Hawthorn over 4 games (not much i agree) but there are easy / basic strategic things to spot and steal. In those 4 games Moore pretty much whenever he gets the ball takes off no matter what. Some other Hawk players do too and some others don't take off straight away. Carlton could learn a lot from this in a very simple upgrade. There should be an inner group of players pulled aside with a weekly KPI to take off/play on because they have the body strength to shrug a tackle while others dont. It would force movement at the very least. Pretty much all of our players stop or have very low percentage of playing on in the fear they are going to be caught.

Cerra, Saad, Cripps, Acres + 4 more players should all be in an inner group with a KPI to play on more than 75% of their possessions with a knowledge to support each other when one of their group goes. This inner group should have its own training regime on how to survive/implement this. The KPI is either do it, or be replaced by someone who has the courage. This aspect of opening up play should be a non negotiable.

Equally E Hollands can't break a tackle AT ALL and is slow as treacle in traffic. He shouldn't be anywhere near a play on coterie group. The MC have to understand the traits required.

Just one aspect of a transition game Carlton wouldn't even be thinking about implementing on purpose. Carlton are busy training them to kick it high down the wing out of defence and set it up for Cripps/KPF/ruck to win it. If they arent doing this then its even worse than i thought. They have no way to teach their players anything because the output on matchday is high down the line to the wing for Pitto/TDK & Cripps to win a mark/stoppage.

Absolutely mate. We need to 'click' in the coaching area too. Voss' back half of this year is as bad a coaching I've ever seen in the modern era - from selection to game-day to matchups, just a nightmare.

The game is at a point where it values transition over everything else. We now have:

6-6-6
Stand/Play-on
Strict holding the ball.

Clear as day the best way forward is to run & gun, create space on the field by opening up the play with short kicks and bodies running forward.

We ignored every bit of it and just focused on contest & creating stoppages, utterly insane. Dead set reckon Voss was re-watching his 2000-2004 Brisbane era on the reg and wanting to create that.

I referenced Richmond post-2016, it did click for Dimma in 2017 as well as the players. He was driving himself crazy with stress and managing everything, it was the 2017 pre-season he let go and delegated to his assistants who created a whole new game plan. Really bloody hope Voss is capable of this.

 

[JustaBattler]

I agree to a point and I agree to your recent historical perspective.

But looking at 23/24 and looking more forward, I personally think the game is evolving and its about how you train/strategise transition where previously it was about 7-9 elite players on your list and stumbling across a decent transition plan.

Carlton have the 7-9 elite players previously required but don't have a winning transition plan. A long way off it.

Pies and Hawks are now leading the way meaning sometimes you don't need the best rated 7-9 players or amazing tall forwards (Frampton) because the transition plan is the key ingredient; not like at Carlton where the player (Mckay/Cripps/Curnow/Weitering) is the key ingredient.

Yes people will cite Pies fall off as a transition plan failure (getting worked out) but i think it was more the players letting the Pies down, not the transition strategy; sidebottom/quaynor just 2 examples that came back in terrible shape after the flag (+ losing Murphy) costing them 2024 finals. But if they have a decent off-season and refresh they could be very dangerous again VERY quickly.

I've watched Hawthorn over 4 games (not much i agree) but there are easy / basic strategic things to spot and steal. In those 4 games Moore pretty much whenever he gets the ball takes off no matter what. Some other Hawk players do too and some others don't take off straight away. Carlton could learn a lot from this in a very simple upgrade. There should be an inner group of players pulled aside with a weekly KPI to take off/play on because they have the body strength to shrug a tackle while others dont. It would force movement at the very least. Pretty much all of our players stop or have very low percentage of playing on in the fear they are going to be caught.

Cerra, Saad, Cripps, Acres + 4 more players should all be in an inner group with a KPI to play on more than 75% of their possessions with a knowledge to support each other when one of their group goes. This inner group should have its own training regime on how to survive/implement this. The KPI is either do it, or be replaced by someone who has the courage. This aspect of opening up play should be a non negotiable.

Equally E Hollands can't break a tackle AT ALL and is slow as treacle in traffic. He shouldn't be anywhere near a play on coterie group. The MC have to understand the traits required.

Just one aspect of a transition game Carlton wouldn't even be thinking about implementing on purpose. Carlton are busy training them to kick it high down the wing out of defence and set it up for Cripps/KPF/ruck to win it. If they arent doing this then its even worse than i thought. They have no way to teach their players anything because the output on matchday is high down the line to the wing for Pitto/TDK & Cripps to win a mark/stoppage.

all that speaks to ONE way of moving the ball and Cripps does it all the time and Walsh tries to - however without structured support ie players knowing when to spread and where to spread to at any given moment - it breaks down...

MORE concerning is the inability to move the ball easily from defensive fifty through teh midfield and control the ball by finding a shorter presenting targets- ie how to break down opposition zone defensive structure- the kick it long is the go to Carlton plan pretty much every time because of lack of kicking skill and lack of cohesive spreading movement and presenting movement - this strategy relies on winning these contests and your mids getting to the contested area whilst covering outlets - it is a tiring strategy when that is all you've got.

This is ALL on coaching.

Imagine of Carlton could move the ball just half as well as better teams can and THEN just for giggles use the kick it long to a tall when they arent being triple teamed..

again this is all on coaching. what people call game plan - but it is just ball movement - we lack teh footy brains to run to center spots space and kicking skill to make the kicks - so the game is always dictated by opposition team's ability or lack of to control ball movement.

 

[JustOneTime]

all that speaks to ONE way of moving the ball and Cripps does it all the time and Walsh tries to - however without structured support ie players knowing when to spread and where to spread to at any given moment - it breaks down...

MORE concerning is the inability to move the ball easily from defensive fifty through teh midfield and control the ball by finding a shorter presenting targets- ie how to break down opposition zone defensive structure- the kick it long is the go to Carlton plan pretty much every time because of lack of kicking skill and lack of cohesive spreading movement and presenting movement - this strategy relies on winning these contests and your mids getting to the contested area whilst covering outlets - it is a tiring strategy when that is all you've got.

This is ALL on coaching.

Imagine of Carlton could move the ball just half as well as better teams can and THEN just for giggles use the kick it long to a tall when they arent being triple teamed..

again this is all on coaching. what people call game plan - but it is just ball movement - we lack teh footy brains to run to center spots space and kicking skill to make the kicks - so the game is always dictated by opposition team's ability or lack of to control ball movement.

Totally agree it is on coaching. Would also say by not doing this we look terribly slow instead of just slow.

Simply implementing this simple thing with a bit of education would change the entire landscape of how Carlton play and are perceived.

Their issue is they don't know how to teach what they are asking for as output. It's that training plan that shows results that is lacking.

 

[Bluechip66]

We have a lot of mark…stop…assess…players…which makes us slow
Also they overthink then make the wrong option , which happens cause they take too long & the defence has covered all options.
U can watch every game we play & we rarely don’t have a free player, but the option is not taken.

 

[katmanblue]

We have a lot of mark…stop…assess…players…which makes us slow
Also they overthink then make the wrong option , which happens cause they take too long & the defence has covered all options.
U can watch every game we play & we rarely don’t have a free player, but the option is not taken.

Trust in each other was eroded as the season went on. So there was an over reliance on giving it to one of the stars even if they were in a worse position or covered.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[smashbox gill]

Can we just bloody support Voss with some decent assistants.

 

[Opium]

Cookie is a master of these situations. I think this could be his greatest moment if he can get everyone on the same page. He fixed Geelong when this exact moment arose!

My concern is Voss has been there three full seasons now. Game plan has not improved and Young players aren't given opportunities. Will Voss take the feedback and be willing to change his ways. Jury is out.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Can we just bloody support Voss with some decent assistants.

Who wants to work with someone who is clearly below par strategically and out of touch with the modern game?