Movie Star Wars - Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker - Spoilers and Rumors

[SM]

Anyway when did this turn in to Bay 13?

There's a tangible link between the query of 'when did being a contributing fan mean you can't have input' and following a team like the crows or west coast.

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Huh?

 

[SM]

Saw a fantastic summation of the issues with this film in the context of SW being a broader continuity:

TROS let me down the way it did almost moreso for how it made me feel I wasted my time being invested, than for its own problems. Not that those problems are not why I felt my invested time and emotions had been wasted, just that it felt like I was duped into consuming media that was utterly pointless, up to and including literally the prior film of the saga.

It is not just continuity but rather payoff, I was sad that TLJ kept its tie-ins small, but once it came out I appreciated that as it fleshed out tone more than anything. TROS makes it hard to consume the stuff around it, the lead up amounts to nothing, and anything else amounts to "it happened then didn't matter cause it was all gonna be destroyed without a second thought and replaced with an unearned version of the empire with none of the pathos.

It is as if the problem was not that it deviated, but rather that it felt like a story built around lore and build up......that only existed in JJ's head. What little build up the Storygroup did allow amounted to little, or on an emotional level feels hollow given the end result.

This was pitched as being planned or at least structured, and in the end it took one film that was nothing but a board room meeting made manifest to tear it all down and sink the surrounding era

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Fans are entitled to voice their displeasure with a product, Jack.
Don't understand how you can agree that fans should just stfu and eat up whatever they're served.

Like I said previously, state your opinion, discuss, even. But the banging on about it.... Geez what a waste of time. Talk about howling at the moon. Every additional post in this thread is basically saying "...And here's another reason why my opinion is correct". It's all an exercise in trying to make yourselves feel better by seeking consensus from others who you feel might hold the same opinion. Pure bias confirmation. You think Disney are going to read a thread on a sub-board on a forum mostly dedicated to Australian Football? It's all just sad. Let go of your hate.

Anyway, I doubt you will be able to let go. So enjoy your echo chamber...

 

[edgie]

Like I said previously, state your opinion, discuss, even. But the banging on about it.... Geez what a waste of time. Talk about howling at the moon. Every additional post in this thread is basically saying "...And here's another reason why my opinion is correct". It's all an exercise in trying to make yourselves feel better by seeking consensus from others who you feel might hold the same opinion. Pure bias confirmation. You think Disney are going to read a thread on a sub-board on a forum mostly dedicated to Australian Football? It's all just sad. Let go of your hate.

Anyway, I doubt you will be able to let go. So enjoy your echo chamber...

Well apparently they read a lot of threads as those who didn't like the film claim it was written by Reddit and Disney allowed the vocal fans to shape the movie... So which one is it?

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[SM]

Like I said previously, state your opinion, discuss, even. But the banging on about it.... Geez what a waste of time. Talk about howling at the moon. Every additional post in this thread is basically saying "...And here's another reason why my opinion is correct". It's all an exercise in trying to make yourselves feel better by seeking consensus from others who you feel might hold the same opinion. Pure bias confirmation. You think Disney are going to read a thread on a sub-board on a forum mostly dedicated to Australian Football? It's all just sad. Let go of your hate.

Anyway, I doubt you will be able to let go. So enjoy your echo chamber...

If you're referring to my post above, I was adding to the new conversation about the concept of Canon.

 

[RolandF1]

I wasn’t referring to what is and isn’t canon, I was referring to edgie’s post that Star Wars had lost its lustre. If fans that didn’t like TLJ had just shut the fu** up, it would have moved quietly past mainstream fans until the next one. Some would have liked it, some may have not, but that would be the end of it. Instead, the worst kind of people come out, abuse directors, troll actors, scream and cry like it was the worst thing to grace this planet, make enough bullshit that it gets reported in mainstream media and a lot of people really start to look down on the movies and fandom as a whole. A lot of the lustre has gone because of fans acting like spoilt children.

You really think the fans were going to do that after the fan backlash to the prequels? That's incredibly optimistic.

Star Wars lost its luster because Disney pumped out a lot of stuff over a short period, and a lot of it crap with way too much call back to the original trilogy. When Lucas did it, it was mostly through non- movie/Tv material and when he did do cinema and TV it was restrained over many years with a lot of established lore behind it, even when results were mixed. Look at Clone Wars, sure the first two films were not decent but Clone Wars had a lot to build on. Can't say the same for sequel trilogy.

Fans lose interest over time when studios pump out so much white noise over a short period. Happened with horror movies in the 80s/90s, happened with Police Academy, even happened to Star Trek.

The Marvel side didn't because they did a variety of stories with a variety of characters and locations, all with an intended overall story arc. They didn't set out to repeat themselves over and over like Star Wars and Terminator have done. And when it felt they did they later course corrected (Iron Man 2 to 3 and Thor 2 to 3). Ironically when they did repeats in Endgame it was obvious and clever. They may struggle with future films though.

 

[edgie]

There was a certain element of lightning in a bottle with the MCU and much of that had to do with Chris Evans and Robert Downey.

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[JackOutback]

You really think the fans were going to do that after the fan backlash to the prequels? That's incredibly optimistic.

Star Wars lost its luster because Disney pumped out a lot of stuff over a short period, and a lot of it crap with way too much call back to the original trilogy. When Lucas did it, it was mostly through non- movie/Tv material and when he did do cinema and TV it was restrained over many years with a lot of established lore behind it, even when results were mixed. Look at Clone Wars, sure the first two films were not decent but Clone Wars had a lot to build on. Can't say the same for sequel trilogy.

Fans lose interest over time when studios pump out so much white noise over a short period. Happened with horror movies in the 80s/90s, happened with Police Academy, even happened to Star Trek.

The Marvel side didn't because they did a variety of stories with a variety of characters and locations, all with an intended overall story arc. They didn't set out to repeat themselves over and over like Star Wars and Terminator have done. And when it felt they did they later course corrected (Iron Man 2 to 3 and Thor 2 to 3). Ironically when they did repeats in Endgame it was obvious and clever. They may struggle with future films though.

It’s a fair point, Star Wars fans have been terrible for a long time. I do agree that leaning too heavily on the OT was a mistake but at the same time, when TLJ offered up new elements, the fans rebelled. A lot of fans want something new right up until they get it. Personally, I think Rogue 1 worked perfectly but after that, they should have veered off...no Solo or planned Fett and Obi-Wan movies. Go back in time to the Old Republic or post-Return of the Jedi with a film showing how they liberated Coruscant and removed the Empire permanently (he’ll, showing the Empire in retreat could have shown how the First Order formed). A lot rides on the 2022 movie. I also think RJ’s proposed original trilogy (or just a single film) would be just what is needed.

 

[edgie]

Nobody complained about TLJ because it was too new.

They complained because it was a bad film.

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[SM]

It’s a fair point, Star Wars fans have been terrible for a long time. I do agree that leaning too heavily on the OT was a mistake but at the same time, when TLJ offered up new elements, the fans rebelled. A lot of fans want something new right up until they get it. Personally, I think Rogue 1 worked perfectly but after that, they should have veered off...no Solo or planned Fett and Obi-Wan movies. Go back in time to the Old Republic or post-Return of the Jedi with a film showing how they liberated Coruscant and removed the Empire permanently (he’ll, showing the Empire in retreat could have shown how the First Order formed). A lot rides on the 2022 movie. I also think RJ’s proposed original trilogy (or just a single film) would be just what is needed.

They deliberately kept Coruscant out of material because it was meant to be in Teverrows film which is annoying.

Genuinely curious though, what do you think was so fresh with TLJ? We got a slow chase through space which echoed TESB, a showdown in snokes throne room which echoed ROTJ and the baffle on Crait which echoed TESB.

You can make the case for the theme of "breaking the wheel" being fresh but I don't really think that alone makes a movie unique when visually and plot wise it leans so heavily on the OT.

 

[JackOutback]

They deliberately kept Coruscant out of material because it was meant to be in Teverrows film which is annoying.

Genuinely curious though, what do you think was so fresh with TLJ? We got a slow chase through space which echoed TESB, a showdown in snokes throne room which echoed ROTJ and the baffle on Crait which echoed TESB.

You can make the case for the theme of "breaking the wheel" being fresh but I don't really think that alone makes a movie unique when visually and plot wise it leans so heavily on the OT.

The ‘breaking the wheel’ as you call is absolutely what makes it fresh when you consider it is part of a franchise that relies so heavily on its familiar beats. Who is this young Jedi’s parents? Nobody, not everyone is related. Who is this manipulator pulling the strings from behind the scenes? No one, this master apprentice trope is old. Who is this young apprentice, is he a fallen hero who can be redeemed? No, even after turning on his master, he’s his own man that should have been the big bad. It turned the character of Luke on its head and in doing so had lots to say about success and failure, myths and legends, what it means to pass things on the next generation, themes you don’t usually find in your popcorn blockbusters. Hell, the climax was great and yet was nothing like a regular blockbuster CGI free-for-all.

Of course it was going to have familiar Star Wars aspects, it’s a franchise film. But it ejected the old, which is why you had so many people complaining ‘where’s my Jedi lightsaber fight’ and why didn’t anybody say ‘I’ve got a bad feeling about this’ (possibly the worst complaint of all). It is one of the best blockbusters of recent years, when I rewatched it with the boy, I still got goosebumps several times. That’s a sign of a great film.

But I’m sure we’ve been over this plenty of times

My interest now is what they will do next to freshen up the franchise, particularly as the Mandalorian seems to be going the other way and drawing in the familiar.

 

[SM]

The ‘breaking the wheel’ as you call is absolutely what makes it fresh when you consider it is part of a franchise that relies so heavily on its familiar beats. Who is this young Jedi’s parents? Nobody, not everyone is related. Who is this manipulator pulling the strings from behind the scenes? No one, this master apprentice trope is old. Who is this young apprentice, is he a fallen hero who can be redeemed? No, even after turning on his master, he’s his own man that should have been the big bad. It turned the character of Luke on its head and in doing so had lots to say about success and failure, myths and legends, what it means to pass things on the next generation, themes you don’t usually find in your popcorn blockbusters. Hell, the climax was great and yet was nothing like a regular blockbuster CGI free-for-all.

Of course it was going to have familiar Star Wars aspects, it’s a franchise film. But it ejected the old, which is why you had so many people complaining ‘where’s my Jedi lightsaber fight’ and why didn’t anybody say ‘I’ve got a bad feeling about this’ (possibly the worst complaint of all). It is one of the best blockbusters of recent years, when I rewatched it with the boy, I still got goosebumps several times. That’s a sign of a great film.

But I’m sure we’ve been over this plenty of times

My interest now is what they will do next to freshen up the franchise, particularly as the Mandalorian seems to be going the other way and drawing in the familiar.

It didn't turn the character of Luke on its head, he threw away his lightsaber and refused to kill the Emperor or Vader at the end of ROTJ. His belief in TLJ that it was up to Rey to carry the fight was not in and of itself new. What it did, that made people upset, was revise his character's history - him trying to kill Kylo then abandoning him to the Dark Side was an utterly negative take on the character.

Familiar Star Wars aspects - space battles, lightsaber duels, yes. Tired repeated beats - Battle of Hoth/Battle of Crait, space chase of Han and Leia/space chase of Resistance, Palpatine Throne Room/Snoke Throne room - is far too on the nose. Having a catch phrase (May the Force be with you, I've Got a Bad Feeling etc. is again, not the same).

This insistence that it was a fresh, exciting take is just so contrived and is brought up by RJ fan boys to somehow justify a tired lumbering blockbuster trying to take a 360 turn from the film before it - part of the same trilogy!!

Don't you find Rogue One a fresher take of Star Wars? No part of that film's story echos any Star Wars film that came before it. There is no lightsaber duel, but it feels authentically Star Wars. Hell, even Solo feels more authentically Star Wars (as dry as the story is) than anything the ST offered up in its pastiche of the OT.

 

[RolandF1]

There was a certain element of lightning in a bottle with the MCU and much of that had to do with Chris Evans and Robert Downey.

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A lot to do with the filmmakers. The dynamic with Evans and Downey helped greatly but without decent story telling, it falls in heap. If Evans contribution was so significant then why did the Fantastic Four films he starred in tank?

The ‘breaking the wheel’ as you call is absolutely what makes it fresh when you consider it is part of a franchise that relies so heavily on its familiar beats. Who is this young Jedi’s parents? Nobody, not everyone is related. Who is this manipulator pulling the strings from behind the scenes? No one, this master apprentice trope is old. Who is this young apprentice, is he a fallen hero who can be redeemed? No, even after turning on his master, he’s his own man that should have been the big bad. It turned the character of Luke on its head and in doing so had lots to say about success and failure, myths and legends, what it means to pass things on the next generation, themes you don’t usually find in your popcorn blockbusters. Hell, the climax was great and yet was nothing like a regular blockbuster CGI free-for-all.

That's just bad characterisation and illogical storytelling. Good storytelling is partly about motive, why the characters act the way they do and drawing out the reasoning as the story is told. It's why crime docos are so interesting, knowing the history and logic of why they do what they do. No one pulls a gun out in a classroom without motive in their lives. 'Because they can' doesn't work most of the time, particularly in a story like this. You think if Darth Vader turned out to be evil incarnate with no reason for turning to the darkside his part in the story would have been just as compelling compared to what we got?

Admittedly sometimes it can work with HAL in 2001 or Dark Knight. But even through the Jokers numerous pseudo stories about his scars they reveal something really ****ed up happened his life regardless of the truth. But it's also compensated with all the other characters in the story. Snoke was similarly deformed yet nothing came of his back story, not even a hint of his background or motive, or why he even existed. Who was Rose or that campaigner with the purple hair that popped out of no where? Didn't matter so why should an audience care?

Regardless, the whole story was a remake of Empire and Jedi. Funnily enough TLJ reinforced some of the story issues I had with Empire.

The Star Wars saga was ultimately about the Skywalkers. Rey as the main character with no real background or 'dog in the fight' would not have worked in the context of the overall story. If she were a nobody in stand alone film, sure, but in the Skywalker saga? No. That's why it would have made sense if she were the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, gelling it all together. Palpatine and 'Vader' finally confronting each other after all that's gone before, paying off their relationship and their attempts at immortality as discussed in Revenge of the Sith. Each finding their own way to prevent death, one cloning, one reincarnation. Also the prophecy of one bring balance to the force was 'Anakin' in a previous life. Connecting the dots. I thought it would have been great giving that character a return from under our nose, that it all was about Anakin the whole time. As it is the sequel trilogy feels hollow and even strange considering Anakin played no part.

 

[SM]

Evans and Downey Jr weren't in Thor Ragnarok and that movie is great. There are plenty of MCU movies I really enjoy - like Ant Man for instance - without them, so while their chemistry helped the overall cohesion of the universe, that's not solely it.

 

[SM]

A lot to do with the filmmakers. The dynamic with Evans and Downey helped greatly but without decent story telling, it falls in heap. If Evans contribution was so significant then why did the Fantastic Four films he starred in tank?




That's just bad characterisation and illogical storytelling. Good storytelling is partly about motive, why the characters act the way they do and drawing out the reasoning as the story is told. It's why crime docos are so interesting, knowing the history and logic of why they do what they do. No one pulls a gun out in a classroom without motive in their lives. 'Because they can' doesn't work most of the time, particularly in a story like this. You think if Darth Vader turned out to be evil incarnate with no reason for turning to the darkside his part in the story would have been just as compelling compared to what we got?

Admittedly sometimes it can work with HAL in 2001 or Dark Knight. But even through the Jokers numerous pseudo stories about his scars they reveal something really f’ed up happened his life regardless of the truth. But it's also compensated with all the other characters in the story. Snoke was similarly deformed yet nothing came of his back story, not even a hint of his background or motive, or why he even existed. Who was Rose or that campaigner with the purple hair that popped out of no where? Didn't matter so why should an audience care?

Regardless, the whole story was a remake of Empire and Jedi. Funnily enough TLJ reinforced some of the story issues I had with Empire.

The Star Wars saga was ultimately about the Skywalkers. Rey as the main character with no real background or 'dog in the fight' would not have worked in the context of the overall story. If she were a nobody in stand alone film, sure, but in the Skywalker saga? No. That's why it would have made sense if she were the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, gelling it all together. Palpatine and 'Vader' finally confronting each other after all that's gone before, paying off their relationship and their attempts at immortality as discussed in Revenge of the Sith. Each finding their own way to prevent death, one cloning, one reincarnation. Also the prophecy of one bring balance to the force was 'Anakin' in a previous life. Connecting the dots. I thought it would have been great giving that character a return from under our nose, that it all was about Anakin the whole time. As it is the sequel trilogy feels hollow and even strange considering Anakin played no part.

Very well said.

 

[edgie]

A lot to do with the filmmakers. The dynamic with Evans and Downey helped greatly but without decent story telling, it falls in heap. If Evans contribution was so significant then why did the Fantastic Four films he starred in tank?




...

Well he was a support in that, Horatio Hornblower was the lead. And I liked them! Yes a lot to do with the Russo's, you are right. Maybe a lot to do with having them take multiple movies in the story unlike the sequel saga which didn't allow that.

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[edgie]

Evans and Downey Jr weren't in Thor Ragnarok and that movie is great. There are plenty of MCU movies I really enjoy - like Ant Man for instance - without them, so while their chemistry helped the overall cohesion of the universe, that's not solely it.

They were pretty much the main players in the Avengers movies. Yes there is still good standalone movies (my favourite MCU is GotG) but they knew where to lean for the main show.

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[SM]

They were pretty much the main players in the Avengers movies.

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I know that, that wasn't my point.

For the record the first two Avengers movies are decidedly average. It's only Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame that succeed, and they all have something in common other than Downey Jr and Evans.

 

[edgie]

Casino Royale is wildly praised as a hugely successful reboot, Jack must've hated it because it still had him say 'Bond, James Bond'

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[JackOutback]

A lot to do with the filmmakers. The dynamic with Evans and Downey helped greatly but without decent story telling, it falls in heap. If Evans contribution was so significant then why did the Fantastic Four films he starred in tank?




That's just bad characterisation and illogical storytelling. Good storytelling is partly about motive, why the characters act the way they do and drawing out the reasoning as the story is told. It's why crime docos are so interesting, knowing the history and logic of why they do what they do. No one pulls a gun out in a classroom without motive in their lives. 'Because they can' doesn't work most of the time, particularly in a story like this. You think if Darth Vader turned out to be evil incarnate with no reason for turning to the darkside his part in the story would have been just as compelling compared to what we got?

Admittedly sometimes it can work with HAL in 2001 or Dark Knight. But even through the Jokers numerous pseudo stories about his scars they reveal something really f’ed up happened his life regardless of the truth. But it's also compensated with all the other characters in the story. Snoke was similarly deformed yet nothing came of his back story, not even a hint of his background or motive, or why he even existed. Who was Rose or that campaigner with the purple hair that popped out of no where? Didn't matter so why should an audience care?

Regardless, the whole story was a remake of Empire and Jedi. Funnily enough TLJ reinforced some of the story issues I had with Empire.

The Star Wars saga was ultimately about the Skywalkers. Rey as the main character with no real background or 'dog in the fight' would not have worked in the context of the overall story. If she were a nobody in stand alone film, sure, but in the Skywalker saga? No. That's why it would have made sense if she were the reincarnation of Anakin Skywalker, gelling it all together. Palpatine and 'Vader' finally confronting each other after all that's gone before, paying off their relationship and their attempts at immortality as discussed in Revenge of the Sith. Each finding their own way to prevent death, one cloning, one reincarnation. Also the prophecy of one bring balance to the force was 'Anakin' in a previous life. Connecting the dots. I thought it would have been great giving that character a return from under our nose, that it all was about Anakin the whole time. As it is the sequel trilogy feels hollow and even strange considering Anakin played no part.

None of the characters’ actions are inconsistent or illogical, it’s just not the characterisation many wanted to see. And that can be said of most of the criticisms of TLJ.

And no offence, but reincarnation of Anakin would have had me tuning out very quickly. Rey as a nobody doesn’t undo the Skywalker saga, it was all set up for Luke’s sacrifice to inspire the people to rise up, defeat the First Order once and for all, end the Jedi/Sith dynamic. An end to the Order and all it’s flaws, new ‘Jedi’ responsible to and for themselves. A fitting legacy for the Skywalkers to bring about a better balance and no need to bring back the Emperor and undo the key arcs Luke and Anakin in the original movies.

 

[JackOutback]

‘Last Jedi’ Didn’t Undo ‘Force Awakens,’ But ‘Rise Of Skywalker’ Retconned Disney’s ‘Star Wars’ Saga

There is a difference between offering unpopular answers to a previous film’s questions and replacing the answers of a previous installment with your own in the next sequel.

www.google.com.au

 

[SM]

None of the characters’ actions are inconsistent or illogical, it’s just not the characterisation many wanted to see. And that can be said of most of the criticisms of TLJ.

And no offence, but reincarnation of Anakin would have had me tuning out very quickly. Rey as a nobody doesn’t undo the Skywalker saga, it was all set up for Luke’s sacrifice to inspire the people to rise up, defeat the First Order once and for all, end the Jedi/Sith dynamic. An end to the Order and all it’s flaws, new ‘Jedi’ responsible to and for themselves. A fitting legacy for the Skywalkers to bring about a better balance and no need to bring back the Emperor and undo the key arcs Luke and Anakin in the original movies.

It doesn't undo the Skywalker saga but having her as the protagonist for the last three films of it would have been pretty weird.

 

[edgie]

There's literally nothing there to suggest a new and different Jedi order.

Rey saves the books. Luke declares her a Jedi in the traditional sense. You're clinging.

Also the movie insinuated Luke didn't even read the Jedi books. That's taking the piss of his character.

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[edgie]

Jack your stupid Forbes article had already been dismissed by the much better analysis that SM posted recently.

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[RolandF1]

None of the characters’ actions are inconsistent or illogical, it’s just not the characterisation many wanted to see. And that can be said of most of the criticisms of TLJ.

The characterisations 'many didn't want to see' ultimately led no where worthwhile.

Luke is wasted. Luke giving up is inconsistent with his character who confronts Vader and the Emperor in Jedi. Yoda and Obi Wan at least had motive.

Leia is wasted, playing second fiddle to some campaigner in purple hair. Why did that have to happened outside of Rlan Johnson doing an unflattering caricature of Kathleen Kennedy?

Rey goes from nobody to fighting Snokes guard and lifting lots of heavy rocks within days.

Blowing up a bigger than death star death star does nothing in Rian Johnson's take, first Order marches on conquering worlds.

And where was Luke's 3rd lesson?

And no offence, but reincarnation of Anakin would have had me tuning out very quickly.

But it would have made sense. Her force ability being so strong from the beginning, being drawn to the blue saber, the first thing she hears when touching it is Vader breathing, the dynamic between Ben and Rey, why Yoda pops up but Anakin is nowhere, the blank vision of her parents in the cave. Having her see Vaders burnt helmet then possibly touching it, sparking a similar reaction to touching the saber instead of that idiotic stage play moment with Kylo revealing it to her. She never seems like she'd go darkside at any stage, but having that reveal would have given it weight. It would have given her a decent arc knowing what she once was, and could be again.

Rey as a nobody doesn’t undo the Skywalker saga, it was all set up for Luke’s sacrifice to inspire the people to rise up, defeat the First Order once and for all, end the Jedi/Sith dynamic. An end to the Order and all it’s flaws, new ‘Jedi’ responsible to and for themselves. A fitting legacy for the Skywalkers to bring about a better balance and no need to bring back the Emperor and undo the key arcs Luke and Anakin in the original movies.

If that was Luke's intention with the sacrifice then Rian Johnson gave him an extremely high opinion of himself thinking he can inspire such a rise up. Particularly when the call for help was unanswered. Seems like an incredibly outlandish conclusion to make in any narrative.

What would have that last movie been then with just Kylo as the villain? Standard sort of good vs bad stuff with something of a boring conclusion. Would it be like if in the Game of Thrones ending the final council agreed with Samwells democracy suggestion?

You know in a place like the SW Universe things like the Jedi order would have been set up for a reason, for example, undisplined force users don't go causing problems for others and in the process actually help people. Its like arguing how we don't need schools and education because of how flawed it all is, because it just breeds people who gain power and then end up clashing and causing wars. In the end, benefits outweigh the bad.