Team Mgmt. Talk about the makeup of our list - midfield balance, height profile, endurance runners

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Darealrath said:
Curious to see what we do with all the reported cap space we'll have. There doesn't seem to be any obvious big money realistic targets at this stage so do they try and rejig a few contracts to front load them and target the year afters FA class? That would be my preference. I want us to hit the top end of the draft again rather than trade out picks.
Click to expand...
Most contracts have a range of how much they get paid year on year I believe. So someone that re-signed this year (McGrath, for example) might be getting the bulk next year and then a reduced fee in 2024
 
eth-dog said:
Most contracts have a range of how much they get paid year on year I believe. So someone that re-signed this year (McGrath, for example) might be getting the bulk next year and then a reduced fee in 2024
Click to expand...

I think you can structure them however both parties agree. I'm hoping we might be in a position to front load the likes of Stringer's and Merrett's contracts even moreso than they already might be. Need to use this cap space to our future advantage if we aren't using it on FAs this year.
 

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Thought I would put some effort into breaking this down again post season. Personally I think we have had more issues than just the coach and culture changes at a footy club take longer than three years to fix. Outside the playing list we need to build the momentum the VFL program had at the back end of the year. They ended up playing a decent brand of footy with 4 or 5 really good up and coming VFL plyers.



Forward line.

What we had this year did not really work. Injury to key players and Walla losing the fire inside played a big part but the mix was not right on a number of fronts. First up it was just too slow and 70% of our team defense issues came from the ball leaking out of our forward 50. Even when we got some of the preferred guys back we where unable to stop the leaks which then overwhelmed other areas of the ground.



Peter Wright had a good season kicking 50 goals but little support and also had games where he could not hold a mark. Obviously it would be good if those games reduced to a few going forward but another issue is he is not a smart footballer. If you watch it closely you can see him not switched on at various stages and sides take advantage of it. Stuff like not setting up quick enough after a point or a kick out on the full. Not thinking quick enough to find his man in transition and also leading into traffic. He is a good target when we can isolate him but we need some help for him.



I was hoping that would be Jones but he just lost too much time with injury and battled to really get going after that. He is a good young player and with a bit more work he can provide us with a good second target but he does have to fine tune his leading and eliminate some of the dumb stuff as well. Has great work rate and for a KPF he has decent speed when he is 100%. Has to be free of injury and take another step forward if we are going anywhere.



Jake Stringer. Another year lost to injury. Maybe time to end the train like a midfielder experiment and just get him fit enough to play forward with the odd center bounce as we need him on the park. Defense wise he can be very up and down in a game let alone over the season. He has the capacity to make tackles inside 50 and put pressure on but he can also be very unaccountable and downright lazy at times. We need to get him back to kicking 50 goals and not burning him out in the midfield because we have no other options. Right now he may not be the player for us as he is a burst player who will dominate here and there but we need consistent performers.



Then we have Snelling and Guelfi. Both fierce team players when they are fit but the lack speed and X factor and honestly I think we can only carry one of them if we are going to improve. Nothing wrong with their games at their best but we need to insert a bit of speed to create more forward pressure.

We will most likely get some help in this area. I thought Menzie showed enough to keep working with although he needs to improve his tackling style and make a few more but he has speed and good endurance along with goal sense and hustle. Alwyn Jnr may well have some impact as well. I know it is a big call but if he produced what he did in the VFL he will add value. It was not high numbers and only a goal but when the game was on the line his speed and pressure effected 4 or 5 rebounds and created a couple of turnovers and a few 50 /50 contests despite not sticking the tackle. Wanganeen should also have a bit more conditioning next year. Jayden Davey may well end up being the best small forward we draft but it is going to be a slower burn with him coming back from injury. D’Ambrosio is also a real option forward. Should be much better next year with a full pre season if he is not playing back.



The medium forwards are not too bad. Have talked about Stringer already. Langford had a horror year so has to be injury free. Martin had a super first year so hopefully another pre season can fine tune a few of his issues. I will throw in Durham here as well as he is a good mark and endurance player. Just has to fine tune a few decisions and some kicks. Archie Perkins is the other in this lot. I do not think he is a midfielder. To my eye he is a half forward / wing who could kick 40 goals. He will need to work on his defensive game craft as he can be very loose when it comes to finding a player in transition.

Langford , Perkins , Martin and Durham will hopefully cover wing rotations with some half forward.



Kaine Baldwin had a pretty good VFL year . He will also have to take another step forward . If he can then he may be a different option as next year unfolds.



Voss showed a bit of form once he got back. He could also be a serious option at some point although I do not see it being midfield but more half forward who could do some blocking at the center bounce.



We will also need the rucks to play a little role. Both Draper and Phillips where able to have little cameos at various stages. Bryan just has to keep building. He has not real forward craft as such but just has to be able to hold a pack mark and contest.



Reid could also end up being an option along with Cox as both did play some forward at under 18 level.

Stewart has had a mixed year but could also provide something if he can actually stay on the park.



We have to improve our inside 50 tackles. The pressure and a few blokes just have to try thinking about the game for a bit longer. On top of that we really need two small forwards.

We can not use the same combination going forward.



Midfield

Again injury hurt with very limited games with the whole group. I think it is fair to say McGrath just stays back. Merrett finished the year pretty well. After a horror start Shiel found some form and Parish was good but below his 2021 level. Caldwell improved. Hobbs did plenty in his first year as well. So what do we need to do ? I will stay out of trades here and just try and find solutions to work with what we have so what happens ? Well if we are going Parish and Shiel for next year then we need a bigger body to block and protect. Voss may be up to providing some of that and if he is it will allow Stringer to not have to play every center bounce but be a change up guy every now and then.

Obviously we need to just find a way to defend more consistently. If these guys can not get it together then it will be past time to say good bye.

The midfield needs two more hard nuts. We have been dominated at times by bigger midfields just smashing our blokes when they have the footy.

Ruck stocks are okay although it is almost project ruck time again. Sam needs to improve again and start reading the game a bit better. His endurance is not great but we can get away with him playing 60% ruck and 15% forward if Phillips stays fit or Bryan can step up again and build some strength.



Defense

An area we have a lot of cover in but also a decent hole at the same time. We have played under size this year so it would be ideal if one of the bigger defenders can really step up. BZK found a new level this year but has to build on that and be more effective on the bigger blokes. Ideally we can get Ridley back to playing more intercept if someone else can step up. Laverde has done a massive job playing undersized but it is not sustainable long term. Kelly is a bit maligned but he did a decent job on the small forwards most weeks despite the lack of pressure up the ground. He is not long term but he fills a spot for now. McGrath was at his best this year in defense. Hind was way too inconsistent. Needs to get back to his better footy. D’Ambrosio looked good enough attacking from half back but he has a lot of work to do defensively as he ball watches a lot. Heppell can not play back.

Redman had a great year and could be even more effective if we fix a few of the defensive issues up the ground.

Then we have a few young blokes who have improved in the VFL over the year. Brand , Eyre and McBride all proved they could defend well in most games. All three played on various types and McBride even played second ruck. Jury is obviously still out so we need them to find the next level.



Lord is the bloke we have who has outside speed from half back and although he improved as the year went on I have alarm bells ringing as when I have watched live I have seen him not attack contests he should be and hanging back out of play.



Reid and Cox will be the most important. Both have to build the body over pre season and start to take on the bigger roles.



Leaders

No short term fix. We are seriously lacking as far as genuine leaders go. We really have to be looking at placing leadership at the top of the tree when we draft for longer term results and also look at leaders via FA and trade in the next few years.

Heppell has been a good leader but he is at a stage where he can not have an impact on games and has little support to drive standards on the field.



So when you look at it we could be a mile away or a bit closer than it looks. All depends on improvement from young blokes. Personally I am not going to get seduced again until I see proof of team defense working at a better and more consistent level. Three coaches in a row have not been able to do anything with it. I think we are 3 to 5 years away from maybe being a side that can win a final and maybe a bit more to be a regular top 4.



The biggest issue we have is the total lack of depth in leadership. We need some leaders to drive standards. People will say Redman or McGrath but both have not really shown they can actually drive it on the ground. Redman plays a fierce game and has potential to do so but it is a step up.



We also have to start taking more marks around the ground. Rucks need to be taking at least 10 marks a game between them. CHF needs to get up the ground more and our wings need to be producing 10 marks combined.



There is something to work with but it all hangs on what if or maybe or hope.

List needs.
Two small forwards. Most likely covered after the draft.
Two bigger strong midfielders.
Someone to step up into the KPD roles.
18 year old ruck project.
Another KPF.
Find some speed off half back to upgrade Hind. Of course if we sort out the team defense Redman and McGrath can be very effecting providing half back run.
 
owen87 said:
I'd like to think that if we're drafting flankers they're coming in as great runners with good (or great) disposal. We lack good users as much as we lack good runners.
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We do. No doubt. Ideally we cover both but if you can run all day you can run sides into the ground and break them.
 
ant555 said:
Thought I would put some effort into breaking this down again post season. Personally I think we have had more issues than just the coach and culture changes at a footy club take longer than three years to fix. Outside the playing list we need to build the momentum the VFL program had at the back end of the year. They ended up playing a decent brand of footy with 4 or 5 really good up and coming VFL plyers.



Forward line.

What we had this year did not really work. Injury to key players and Walla losing the fire inside played a big part but the mix was not right on a number of fronts. First up it was just too slow and 70% of our team defense issues came from the ball leaking out of our forward 50. Even when we got some of the preferred guys back we where unable to stop the leaks which then overwhelmed other areas of the ground.



Peter Wright had a good season kicking 50 goals but little support and also had games where he could not hold a mark. Obviously it would be good if those games reduced to a few going forward but another issue is he is not a smart footballer. If you watch it closely you can see him not switched on at various stages and sides take advantage of it. Stuff like not setting up quick enough after a point or a kick out on the full. Not thinking quick enough to find his man in transition and also leading into traffic. He is a good target when we can isolate him but we need some help for him.



I was hoping that would be Jones but he just lost too much time with injury and battled to really get going after that. He is a good young player and with a bit more work he can provide us with a good second target but he does have to fine tune his leading and eliminate some of the dumb stuff as well. Has great work rate and for a KPF he has decent speed when he is 100%. Has to be free of injury and take another step forward if we are going anywhere.



Jake Stringer. Another year lost to injury. Maybe time to end the train like a midfielder experiment and just get him fit enough to play forward with the odd center bounce as we need him on the park. Defense wise he can be very up and down in a game let alone over the season. He has the capacity to make tackles inside 50 and put pressure on but he can also be very unaccountable and downright lazy at times. We need to get him back to kicking 50 goals and not burning him out in the midfield because we have no other options. Right now he may not be the player for us as he is a burst player who will dominate here and there but we need consistent performers.



Then we have Snelling and Guelfi. Both fierce team players when they are fit but the lack speed and X factor and honestly I think we can only carry one of them if we are going to improve. Nothing wrong with their games at their best but we need to insert a bit of speed to create more forward pressure.

We will most likely get some help in this area. I thought Menzie showed enough to keep working with although he needs to improve his tackling style and make a few more but he has speed and good endurance along with goal sense and hustle. Alwyn Jnr may well have some impact as well. I know it is a big call but if he produced what he did in the VFL he will add value. It was not high numbers and only a goal but when the game was on the line his speed and pressure effected 4 or 5 rebounds and created a couple of turnovers and a few 50 /50 contests despite not sticking the tackle. Wanganeen should also have a bit more conditioning next year. Jayden Davey may well end up being the best small forward we draft but it is going to be a slower burn with him coming back from injury. D’Ambrosio is also a real option forward. Should be much better next year with a full pre season if he is not playing back.



The medium forwards are not too bad. Have talked about Stringer already. Langford had a horror year so has to be injury free. Martin had a super first year so hopefully another pre season can fine tune a few of his issues. I will throw in Durham here as well as he is a good mark and endurance player. Just has to fine tune a few decisions and some kicks. Archie Perkins is the other in this lot. I do not think he is a midfielder. To my eye he is a half forward / wing who could kick 40 goals. He will need to work on his defensive game craft as he can be very loose when it comes to finding a player in transition.

Langford , Perkins , Martin and Durham will hopefully cover wing rotations with some half forward.



Kaine Baldwin had a pretty good VFL year . He will also have to take another step forward . If he can then he may be a different option as next year unfolds.



Voss showed a bit of form once he got back. He could also be a serious option at some point although I do not see it being midfield but more half forward who could do some blocking at the center bounce.



We will also need the rucks to play a little role. Both Draper and Phillips where able to have little cameos at various stages. Bryan just has to keep building. He has not real forward craft as such but just has to be able to hold a pack mark and contest.



Reid could also end up being an option along with Cox as both did play some forward at under 18 level.

Stewart has had a mixed year but could also provide something if he can actually stay on the park.



We have to improve our inside 50 tackles. The pressure and a few blokes just have to try thinking about the game for a bit longer. On top of that we really need two small forwards.

We can not use the same combination going forward.



Midfield

Again injury hurt with very limited games with the whole group. I think it is fair to say McGrath just stays back. Merrett finished the year pretty well. After a horror start Shiel found some form and Parish was good but below his 2021 level. Caldwell improved. Hobbs did plenty in his first year as well. So what do we need to do ? I will stay out of trades here and just try and find solutions to work with what we have so what happens ? Well if we are going Parish and Shiel for next year then we need a bigger body to block and protect. Voss may be up to providing some of that and if he is it will allow Stringer to not have to play every center bounce but be a change up guy every now and then.

Obviously we need to just find a way to defend more consistently. If these guys can not get it together then it will be past time to say good bye.

The midfield needs two more hard nuts. We have been dominated at times by bigger midfields just smashing our blokes when they have the footy.

Ruck stocks are okay although it is almost project ruck time again. Sam needs to improve again and start reading the game a bit better. His endurance is not great but we can get away with him playing 60% ruck and 15% forward if Phillips stays fit or Bryan can step up again and build some strength.



Defense

An area we have a lot of cover in but also a decent hole at the same time. We have played under size this year so it would be ideal if one of the bigger defenders can really step up. BZK found a new level this year but has to build on that and be more effective on the bigger blokes. Ideally we can get Ridley back to playing more intercept if someone else can step up. Laverde has done a massive job playing undersized but it is not sustainable long term. Kelly is a bit maligned but he did a decent job on the small forwards most weeks despite the lack of pressure up the ground. He is not long term but he fills a spot for now. McGrath was at his best this year in defense. Hind was way too inconsistent. Needs to get back to his better footy. D’Ambrosio looked good enough attacking from half back but he has a lot of work to do defensively as he ball watches a lot. Heppell can not play back.

Redman had a great year and could be even more effective if we fix a few of the defensive issues up the ground.

Then we have a few young blokes who have improved in the VFL over the year. Brand , Eyre and McBride all proved they could defend well in most games. All three played on various types and McBride even played second ruck. Jury is obviously still out so we need them to find the next level.



Lord is the bloke we have who has outside speed from half back and although he improved as the year went on I have alarm bells ringing as when I have watched live I have seen him not attack contests he should be and hanging back out of play.



Reid and Cox will be the most important. Both have to build the body over pre season and start to take on the bigger roles.



Leaders

No short term fix. We are seriously lacking as far as genuine leaders go. We really have to be looking at placing leadership at the top of the tree when we draft for longer term results and also look at leaders via FA and trade in the next few years.

Heppell has been a good leader but he is at a stage where he can not have an impact on games and has little support to drive standards on the field.



So when you look at it we could be a mile away or a bit closer than it looks. All depends on improvement from young blokes. Personally I am not going to get seduced again until I see proof of team defense working at a better and more consistent level. Three coaches in a row have not been able to do anything with it. I think we are 3 to 5 years away from maybe being a side that can win a final and maybe a bit more to be a regular top 4.



The biggest issue we have is the total lack of depth in leadership. We need some leaders to drive standards. People will say Redman or McGrath but both have not really shown they can actually drive it on the ground. Redman plays a fierce game and has potential to do so but it is a step up.



We also have to start taking more marks around the ground. Rucks need to be taking at least 10 marks a game between them. CHF needs to get up the ground more and our wings need to be producing 10 marks combined.



There is something to work with but it all hangs on what if or maybe or hope.

List needs.
Two small forwards. Most likely covered after the draft.
Two bigger strong midfielders.
Someone to step up into the KPD roles.
18 year old ruck project.
Another KPF.
Find some speed off half back to upgrade Hind. Of course if we sort out the team defense Redman and McGrath can be very effecting providing half back run.
Click to expand...

Great post - summed up our list needs perfectly. Like you say we should be able to cover the small forward requirements heading into 2023, and our defence and attacking options look decent enough also - it’s a big bodied mid or 2 we are lacking and have been since Jobe last played which was in 2017…


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One thing I'd like us to do is have less reliance on run from the back line.

A lot of the top teams don't really have many line breakers going on big runs from defense. They kick mark their way out. For along time we haven't had the footskills to attempt it but I think we are getting close. Redman, D'Ambrossio, Reid, Ridley, McGrath are really capable. BZT has improved out of sight and might be up for it, it's only really Kelly and Lav that might struggle. If we can replace them with some elite users we'll be on for much cleaner defensive exits and we'll be able to hold our position better behind the ball.
 
Red Black and Blue said:
One thing I'd like us to do is have less reliance on run from the back line.

A lot of the top teams don't really have many line breakers going on big runs from defense. They kick mark their way out. For along time we haven't had the footskills to attempt it but I think we are getting close. Redman, D'Ambrossio, Reid, Ridley, McGrath are really capable. BZT has improved out of sight and might be up for it, it's only really Kelly and Lav that might struggle. If we can replace them with some elite users we'll be on for much cleaner defensive exits and we'll be able to hold our position better behind the ball.
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I was pretty annoyed to see Reid fwd vs Richmond, was another cross against Rutten

Wouldve loved to have seen him either moved onto Lynch or started back on Lynch
 
Keystone agony said:
I was pretty annoyed to see Reid fwd vs Richmond, was another cross against Rutten

Wouldve loved to have seen him either moved onto Lynch or started back on Lynch
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I think the Reid forward was more about getting him some development there while his body is not really ready to take on KPD on a full time basis. They played him on the smaller players in the VFL because he was struggling with the physical aspect of playing on the bigger forwards every week. Getting a pasting by the form forward in the last round is not really development. It has had to be a bit of a steady approach because of his injury and illness which has slowed his development.
 
Zach Package said:
This isn’t comparisons, because there is absolutely no comparison, we’ve cycled through probably 4 core groups while Geelong have not only kept the same but kept the same and continued to add.

I’m not asking a question I know the answer to either, I just cannot fathom why we cannot get a group together for a consistent period of time.
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We’ve struggled to bring through a cohort for two main reasons.

1) Players leaving, after the saga especially. Ryder, Colyer, Melksham, Hibberd, Saad, McKenna, JD, Raz etc.

2) Our poor performance keeping aging players going. I don’t know what causes it, but our record with older players is abysmal. Consider that right now the following ages of players whose careers ended or are affected by injury or age:
  • Dempsey (35)
  • Hocking (34)
  • Ryder (34)
  • Gumbleton (34)
  • Howlett (34)
  • Crameri (34)
  • Myers (33)
  • D Daniher (33)
  • Hurley (32)
  • Zaharakis (32)
  • Pears (32)
  • Belly (32)
  • Hibberd (32)
  • Carlisle (31)
  • Colyer (31)
  • Ambrose (30)
  • Heppell (30)
  • Walla (29)
Just THREE of those players will play in 2023. And only one of them at EFC. Arguably if Geelong or Hawthorn had recruited the above players a number of them would still be playing good footy. How do you have a cohort if you can’t keep them on the park? Even some who unlikely wouldn’t be here, think of how long ago they quit. Dempsey playing to 35 is unlikely. But he’s been out of the game six years!

Whether it’s drafting, injury management, fitness training approach, diet, culture, whatever. We just can’t seem to get a decent number of our players playing decently over 30. And this has happened in the past. Stanton done at 31. Hille was 32. Davey at 29.

Hell, Zaka and Stanton were mostly uninjured outside players of high quality and their careers ended at around 30.

And it really impacts. Imagine if Walla, Ambrose, Belly were still here and Heppell was playing less cooked as a189cm inside mid (where he was AA). A key back, small forward, midfielder and R/F. That would make a huge difference.
 
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eth-dog said:
This is exactly the issue. Every year we say "we can always get one next year" and we never do.
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Not really. Outside of Taranto vs McGrath when has there been a viable candidate that we’ve overlooked? You can’t draft what isn’t there, and taking a long-shot over a better candidate usually creates issues.

I’d be strongly considering Phillipou with #4.
 
Darealrath said:
Curious to see what we do with all the reported cap space we'll have. There doesn't seem to be any obvious big money realistic targets at this stage so do they try and rejig a few contracts to front load them and target the year afters FA class? That would be my preference. I want us to hit the top end of the draft again rather than trade out picks.
Click to expand...

eth-dog said:
Most contracts have a range of how much they get paid year on year I believe. So someone that re-signed this year (McGrath, for example) might be getting the bulk next year and then a reduced fee in 2024
Click to expand...

Darealrath said:
I think you can structure them however both parties agree. I'm hoping we might be in a position to front load the likes of Stringer's and Merrett's contracts even moreso than they already might be. Need to use this cap space to our future advantage if we aren't using it on FAs this year.
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The thing to remember with front loading is that it is the salary in the final year of the contract that determines if a player is a restricted or unrestricted free agent (at least until they hit the age point). So if you front load McGrath too much in 2023 he can leave for anywhere with no matching in 2024.
 

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Ants said:
We’ve struggled to bring through a cohort for two main reasons.

1) Players leaving, after the saga especially. Ryder, Colyer, Melksham, Hibberd, Saad, McKenna, JD, Raz etc.

2) Our poor performance keeping aging players going. I don’t know what causes it, but our record with older players is abysmal. Consider that right now the following ages of players whose careers ended or are affected by injury or age:
  • Dempsey (35)
  • Hocking (34)
  • Ryder (34)
  • Gumbleton (34)
  • Howlett (34)
  • Crameri (34)
  • Myers (33)
  • D Daniher (33)
  • Hurley (32)
  • Zaharakis (32)
  • Pears (32)
  • Belly (32)
  • Hibberd (32)
  • Carlisle (31)
  • Colyer (31)
  • Ambrose (30)
  • Heppell (30)
  • Walla (29)
Just THREE of those players will play in 2023. And only one of them at EFC. Arguably if Geelong or Hawthorn had recruited the above players a number of them would still be playing good footy. How do you have a cohort if you can’t keep them on the park? Even some who unlikely wouldn’t be here, think of how long ago they quit. Dempsey playing to 35 is unlikely. But he’s been out of the game six years!

Whether it’s drafting, injury management, fitness training approach, diet, culture, whatever. We just can’t seem to get a decent number of our players playing decently over 30. And this has happened in the past. Stanton done at 31. Hille was 32. Davey at 29.

Hell, Zaka and Stanton were mostly uninjured outside players of high quality and their careers ended at around 30.

And it really impacts. Imagine if Walla, Ambrose, Belly were still here and Heppell was playing less cooked as a189cm inside mid (where he was AA). A key back, small forward, midfielder and R/F. That would make a huge difference.
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Yeah, but Sean Murphy worked at Hawthorn which automatically qualifies him for being good and the right fit for us, or so im told :rolleyes:
 
With trade week edging closer, one thing I don't want us to fall into the trap of is doing everything for the now.

IF we do bring in a Darcy Tucker then we should also be looking to bring in at least one 18/19 y.o midfielder to develop. If/when a tucker type is done, we would be back to square one if we don't also look to the future.
 
Yoda_ said:
Yeah, but Sean Murphy worked at Hawthorn which automatically qualifies him for being good and the right fit for us, or so im told :rolleyes:
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Who said automatically?
You bitch about the fitness staff yet never provide anything other than sack this bloke or that bloke. So we go after someone else in a good system.? Who ?
And what is it with the rolling eyes emoji ?
 
ant555 said:
Who said automatically?
You bitch about the fitness staff yet never provide anything other than sack this bloke or that bloke. So we go after someone else in a good system.? Who ?
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It's the constant excuse of Murphy worked at so and so club he must be good that is frustrating. The mounting evidence suggests he isn't doing that great a job.
 
Yoda_ said:
It's the constant excuse of Murphy worked at so and so club he must be good that is frustrating. The mounting evidence suggests he isn't doing that great a job.
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Who’s using it as an excuse? I simply used it as an example that after having multiple fitness coaches we head hunted a guy from a good system. The results have been similar so when do we start looking at players? Is it all fitness or is it also trying to put square pegs in round holes ?
Adrian was not known for that sort of attention to detail.
After 5 fitness coaches when do start saying all of them can not have it totally wrong.
Keep training flankers to play midfield and you get what you get.
 
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ant555 said:
Who’s using it as an excuse? I simply used it as an example that after having multiple fitness coaches we head hunted a guy from a good system. The results have been similar so when do we start looking at players? Is it all fitness or is it also trying to put square pegs in round holes ?
Adrian was not known for that sort of attention to detail.
After 5 fitness coaches when do start saying all of them can not have it totally wrong.
Keep training flankers to play midfield and you get what you get.
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yeah, fair call. In the end it's just frustrating that after all this time and all these changes we still have the same shit happening.
 
Yoda_ said:
yeah, fair call. In the end it's just frustrating that after all this time and all these changes we still have the same s**t happening.
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I think when there are so many things wrong at the club it's easy to get frustrated with individual areas. Hopefully the review is thorough and addresses all of the issues so we can focus more on how the team/players are going rather than wonder if medical and other support staff are doing their jobs properly.
 

AFL list analysis: Gary Buckenara analyses Essendon’s list, names Ross Lyon as perfect coach​

This time last year, Collingwood making the top-four could not have seemed more farfetched — here’s why history could repeat at Essendon.

What a messy end to the season it was for Essendon.
Coach gone. A failed bid to lure Clarko and the CEO out the door as well.
But as much as the Bombers are a rabble off the field at the moment, the club’s list is in better shape.
In fact, if the Bombers can sort out their off-field issues and find the right coach – I’m looking at you Ross Lyon – they can easily be a top-eight side next year, if not top four.
The new coach has got a real opportunity. It would be a good job to get.

The Bombers’ list has talent and is well-balanced overall and that is clear with 24 A, B and rising star-ranked players. If anything, the club’s top-end talent could be a bit thin.

After sneaking into the finals in 2021, the Bombers should have been a top-eight team again this year, but the early part of the season really cost them.

The group had some disappointing losses this season, but some patience is required with developing players.

Overall, the list quality is there. With the developing players coming through, I see a lot to get excited about.

I expect there will be a few more A-graders added to the list in the near future such as Nik Cox, Harrison Jones, Nick Bryan and Nic Martin.

This season would have been a good learning year for the Bombers’ young players about how hard it is to back up a good year with another one – and just how brutal the business can be after their coach Ben Rutten was sacked.

Lyon is the perfect man for the vacant job because the Bombers need a harder edge – and Ross would demand that.

Of all the potential candidates, he would bring that edge in terms of the way he would want them to play and he would fix up the defensive side of their game where they were getting slaughtered.

Off-field, the only survivors are football manager Josh Mahoney and list boss Adrian Dodoro.

Dodoro has been at the Bombers for much of the club’s past 20 years without a flag, but he has done a good job in the past couple of years.

The issue with Dodoro is that rival clubs are often hesitant to do deals with him as he has a reputation of playing hard ball and holding up deals, wanting too much for his players and often offering way undoers for other club’s players.

Could it be time for a fresh set of eyes in this department as well?

While the Bombers search for new off-field leadership, there could be a change on-field as well as captain Dyson Heppell’s future remains unclear as he is courted by Gold Coast.

Even if Heppell was to stay, it could be time for a younger player to step up into the role with Zach Merrett or Andy McGrath the obvious candidates.

McGrath I have as an A-grader because he’s very dangerous off halfback. He burst onto the scene winning the rising star and I think he’s been consistent despite the team’s on-field issues.

He can be the great metres-gain player and the best is still in front of him.



HOW THE RATINGS WORK

At a club level, player ranking is generally based on gradings of A+, A, B+, B, C+, C and the developing players.

My rankings will focus on A, B, C and for the developing 20-year-old and under players will be rated as rising stars (RS) and those that need more time (NMT).

With the younger players, it is important to consider who is coming through and those who need longer to develop.

The most important areas for clubs to look at is how many A and B ranked players they have as well as the rising stars, who I believe should be A and B-grade players in the future.

RATING THE LIST​



A

Darcy Parish, 24, 180cm, 82kg

Zach Merrett, 26, 179cm, 85kg

Jake Stringer, 28, 192cm, 91kg

Andrew McGrath, 24, 180cm, 83kg



B

Sam Draper, 23, 205cm, 105kg

Kyle Langford, 25, 192cm, 88kg

Dylan Shiel, 29, 182cm, 84kg

Jordan Ridley, 23, 195cm, 93kg

Jayden Laverde, 26, 193cm, 91kg

Nick Hind, 27, 180cm, 76kg

Peter Wright, 25, 203cm, 102kg

Dyson Heppell, 30, 189cm, 87kg

Harrison Jones, 21, 196cm, 88kg

Mason Redman, 24, 187cm, 86kg

Jake Kelly, 27, 190cm, 91kg

Brandon Zerk-Thatcher, 23, 195cm, 89kg

Matt Guelfi, 24, 184cm, 84kg

Nic Martin, 21, 192cm, 82kg

C

Jye Caldwell, 21, 183cm, 83kg

Aaron Francis, 24, 193cm, 92kg

Will Snelling, 24, 175cm, 79kg

James Stewart, 28, 199cm, 99kg

Brayden Ham, 23, 182cm, 79kg

Andrew Phillips, 30, 201cm, 101kg

Cian McBride R, 21, 197cm, 90kg

Alec Waterman R, 25, 182cm, 89kg


Developing (20 years and under)

Rising stars

Ben Hobbs, 18, 183cm, 79kg

Nik Cox, 20, 200cm, 94kg

Archie Perkins, 20, 188cm, 80kg

Nick Bryan, 20, 203cm, 101kg

Tex Wanganeen, 18, 179cm, 78kg

Massimo D’Ambrosio R, 19, 178cm, 80kg



Needs more time

Sam Durham, 20, 185cm, 84kg

Kaine Baldwin, 20, 193cm, 95kg

Alastair Lord, 18, 181cm, 75kg

Zach Reid, 20, 202cm, 90kg

Josh Eyre, 19, 198cm, 93kg

Cody Brand, 20, 195cm, 92kg

Patrick Voss R, 18, 194cm, 93kg

Jye Menzie R, 19, 180cm, 81kg



Retired: Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti, Michael Hurley, Devon Smith



Delisted: Tom Cutler, Garrett McDonagh, Tom Hird

LIST BREAKDOWN​

A-Grade: 4

B-Grade: 14

C-Grade: 8

Developing (20 years and under)

Rising Stars: 6

Need more time: 8


LIST NEEDS

Essendon’s list is well balanced, but there are some areas across the ground they could address through free agency and trade. The Bombers’ top-end talent could do with a boost.

They traded for Jye Caldwell and he’s still in the C-grade level. He’s still young and it seems like he has struggled finding the ball at AFL level. He still has talent, it hasn’t disappeared but he just needs more certainty at senior level. Give him one more year and see what happens.

While they could also be in the market for a key defender and a really clever small forward. But one of their biggest problems has been a lack of grunt at stoppages. The bigger-bodied midfielders, like a Patrick Cripps type. They don’t come around all the time, but that’s the sort of body shape that can muscle around and win stoppages and they just don’t seem to have that. With rival clubs circling, retaining young ruck prospect Nick Bryan to help Sam Draper should also be a priority for the club. Given this year’s draft looks strong, the Bombers need to balance any potential trade targets up against the young players they could bring in with those traits via the draft. They still desperately need to bolster its key position stocks the front end of the ground. Overall, the Bombers’ list is in a strong position to build on but they have some work to do.

TRADE TARGETS

The Bombers made a play at unsigned Western Bulldogs midfielder Josh Dunkley last time, so why not have another swing again? Dunkley would immediately add to the Bombers’ top-end talent and, at the age of 25, would be arriving at the club as he enters his prime. He is that grunt player they need. He is not the outside, slick ball user, but he is a stoppage player and he does it really well at the Bulldogs. Fremantle backman Griffin Logue could fill a defensive need and, at 24, also has plenty of upside to his game, so why not put something on the table for him? There is noise about Junior Rioli’s future at West Coast and there could be a link there for the livewire forward with Michael Long. Rioli is looming like he’ll join Port Adelaide so the Dons need to get ambitious given they’ve been eager to add a small forward -Izak Rankine and Bobby Hill in recent years. Could they look at a more value play in Demons’ small forward Toby Bedford or Geelong’s Quinton Narkle? It wouldn’t cost the Bombers much but would address a key need. But the Bombers might want to make sure they have enough salary cap space to make a play at Gold Coast forward Ben King and Carlton’s Harry McKay when they come out of contract next year. I would sell it to King on the basis that St Kilda – where brother Max is – probably haven’t got the list that is going to win a premiership any time soon and they might have to go back to the drawing board whereas the Bombers are on the rise. While they should entice McKay by ensuring he’d be well renumerated compared to what he’d get at the Blues.

TRADE BAIT

Midfielder Dylan Shiel could be one candidate for a spot on the trade table if the Bombers could find a club willing to part ways with a top-30 pick. In the middle of a six-year deal, the former Giant has not delivered what they thought he would be in terms of that grunt player that could win the ball and get it out. He has only done that outside stuff and very little of the inside grunt work. I just don’t think he had measured up to what they wanted. But they could probably get a second-round pick for him or use him in a trade to get another player from a rival club that suits their needs. Heppell is weighing up a move to the Gold Coast, but that is unlikely to reap the Bombers much in terms of compensation. It might be a later second, or even a third-round pick because of his age demographic. But if the compensatory pick was at the start of the second, or even the start of the third, the Bombers are still going to get a good young player in this draft. That’s what I think they should look at doing.

CRYSTAL BALL

With the right appointments off the field, it should not take Essendon long to turn around what ended as a forgettable 2022 season. Their list is well-balanced with the right blend of developing players, depth players (C-grade) and a good spread of A and B-graders – even if their top-end talent could do with a bit of a boost. There is no denying the Bombers’ 2022 campaign was a disappointment, particularly early on in the year.

Given the expectations for 2022, I can understand the level of impatience among the club‘s supporters and football experts over the Bombers’ progress – or lack thereof. But this can sometimes happen with a younger group of developing players just struggling with more opposition attention and they should be better off for that experience.

The new coach has to pick up this group and get them playing committed team football with a far harder edge to them than what they showed this year.

The Bombers should be top-eight contenders – if not more – over the next few years, which has the potential to be an exciting new chapter for the club.
 
I Remember Bluey said:
The Bombers should be top-eight contenders – if not more – over the next few years, which has the potential to be an exciting new chapter for the club.
Click to expand...
Smoking a few too many leaves from Malthouse's book I think.

Also what is the point of a crystal ball that says "should be" and "if not more" and “potential” and then puts an indistinct timeline of "next few years" on it, so that all these weasel words could come to fruition in any of several seasons? Casting a wide net.

If we make finals even once in the next four years (which is likely since we tend to do that every other year and then get bundled out), he can call it accurate, without saying anything remotely interesting.
 
There is a fair bit of delusion in that list assessment!

Some A's that should be B's. Some B's that should be C's. Some C's that should be under a new D category. And some Rising Stars that still need a lot more time to show they deserve to be on an AFL list going forward.

Overall, I think the media has a real tendency to overrate the quality of our list. Feels like we regularly underperform the expectations of the 'experts' - although occasionally like 2021 we surprise on the upside.
 
calyam said:
There is a fair bit of delusion in that list assessment!

Some A's that should be B's. Some B's that should be C's. Some C's that should be under a new D category. And some Rising Stars that still need a lot more time to show they deserve to be on an AFL list going forward.

Overall, I think the media has a real tendency to overrate the quality of our list. Feels like we regularly underperform the expectations of the 'experts' - although occasionally like 2021 we surprise on the upside.
Click to expand...

When was the last time our list was greater than the sum of it's parts? Seems we've got a lot of pieces that look good, but don't work together nicely so never quite achieve what they should.
 
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