Scape Goat The Cam Guthrie Echo Chamber

[Larry Donohue]

Gawn

 

[CatFan79]

Gawn

 

[PatrickBateman]

Too liked by our coaching staff. Should be in the VFL and then off the list if there isn't some unexpected transformation as I'd rather see other players have the chance in the firsts.

As a long time (forever?) doubter of Guthrie's worth, what you've written here is important I think. I'll extend on it a little..

I blame the knuckleheads at the GFC, here's why:

- Playing players over others based on talent is awful for culture. Guthrie is considered to be highly talented despite lacking many stereotypical footballer attributes. He should have been dropped (Motlop another example, Tenace another)

- The GFC have continued to play Guthrie for a long time with low confidence, it's to the detriment of the guy, and his career. Poor. Don't find another role for him, DROP HIM. It's proven time and time again to be a good thing for players, a reset mentally.

- Players with confidence / self worth issues often remedy it in the VFL (Guthrie is a confidence / emotional player) - Guthrie should have been dropped

- GFC felt invested from the start with Guthrie, they earmarked him as a star early, then just waited for the inevitable. It never happened, they won't admit it to themselves though. They've instead tried to reinvent the guy 4-5 times. Even making him a club leader didn't work. There's only so much sunshine you can blow up someone's backside... You can trick the fans / media, you can't trick the man himself.

Guthrie will still have a respectable career in terms of games played at the end of the day, but it's been to the detriment of the side in my opinion. Chris Scott is soft, the GFC have been soft and made the wrong decisions for the club and Guthrie.

BTW, I don't think he's a scapegoat. He's classic of any 'passenger' player, they can look good when things are great, bad when not and under the microscope.

 

[Spazz Cat]

As a long time (forever?) doubter of Guthrie's worth, what you've written here is important I think. I'll extend on it a little..

I blame the knuckleheads at the GFC, here's why:

- Playing players over others based on talent is awful for culture. Guthrie is considered to be highly talented despite lacking many stereotypical footballer attributes. He should have been dropped (Motlop another example, Tenace another)

- The GFC have continued to play Guthrie for a long time with low confidence, it's to the detriment of the guy, and his career. Poor. Don't find another role for him, DROP HIM. It's proven time and time again to be a good thing for players, a reset mentally.

- Players with confidence / self worth issues often remedy it in the VFL (Guthrie is a confidence / emotional player) - Guthrie should have been dropped

- GFC felt invested from the start with Guthrie, they earmarked him as a star early, then just waited for the inevitable. It never happened, they won't admit it to themselves though. They've instead tried to reinvent the guy 4-5 times. Even making him a club leader didn't work. There's only so much sunshine you can blow up someone's backside... You can trick the fans / media, you can't trick the man himself.

Guthrie will still have a respectable career in terms of games played at the end of the day, but it's been to the detriment of the side in my opinion. Chris Scott is soft, the GFC have been soft and made the wrong decisions for the club and Guthrie.

Great post man. Getting dropped and playing some VFL is the often the best way to regain confidence, even develop a new role, or just even realise team things need to be done.

 

[James1970]

If you're fantasising over Guthrie haircuts you've gone too deep.

Always keep in mind the undisputed fact we put ourselves in 2009 Premiership form when Moons got rid of the locks and man-bun.

 

[Max Milburn]

Yes, short back and sides make all the difference...

 

[Landgraft]

Always keep in mind the undisputed fact we put ourselves in 2009 Premiership form when Moons got rid of the locks and man-bun.

Yes, that was what did it

 

[TheMenz Gallery]

I'm really scratching my head here, i'm not sure what some people expect. No premiership side in history has had 6 Matty Scarlett calibre players in the backline, 6 Juniors in the midfield and 6 Seniors up forwards. For one, you wouldn't be able to fit them into the salary cap.

Are some posters to young to know or to old to remember some of the poor sides that we have seen in the hoops before.
Take this side that was smashed by a bottom four side in Adelaide by 63 points in 1999.

https://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails...5c279f6e98c5d3546a8abdf9be2d&Sort=Rating Desc

Had he played back then, you could just about make a case for Cam Guthrie to be in the top 10 in that side and now we are arguing about whether Cam is in the best 22 of today's side. At some point we as Geelong fans will be watching similar sides as the above run out again and there will be bigger issues to worry about. In the meantime, we have a pretty good list and the problem is not the players, it's how we are using them.

Cam Guthrie is never going to be an Ablett, Danger or Selwood. He's probably not going to reach Mitch Duncan's level but the level he has reached is good enough to be a player capable of holding his position in the best 22. He is every bit as important to a premiership for us as Josh Hunt, Wojo and Stokesy were to our 07-11 era.

 

[Footy Smarts]

And with 6-6-6
Big bodied mids clearance specialists are going to be even more important to teams this year. Winning centre clearances is going to win you games now literally.

Just going to be less congested without players coming off the back of the square.

Surely if it's less congested big-bodied mids are going to be less important not more?

 

[Landgraft]

Surely if it's less congested big-bodied mids are going to be less important not more?

Are we going to debate the dominant strategy in rock paper scissors? (It's scissors)

You need to win the clearance, but also be effective in your forward thrust to actually seize the opportunity afforded under the new rules. I'm not sure what will prove strongest this year, but I'd be prioritising a good defensive stopper that's willing to block for his teammates, because then you can engineer favourable matchups and outcomes more reliably.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Are we going to debate the dominant strategy in rock paper scissors? (It's scissors)

You need to win the clearance, but also be effective in your forward thrust to actually seize the opportunity afforded under the new rules. I'm not sure what will prove strongest this year, but I'd be prioritising a good defensive stopper that's willing to block for his teammates, because then you can engineer favourable matchups and outcomes more reliably.

I agree that blocking for teammates will be essential and I'd say teamwork now becomes more important. But to me big-bodied midfielders generally refers to those who extract the ball from congestion and whose strength is breaking tackles which is less likely to be crucial with so much more space around the middle. Those who can win the ball and then handball well to put their teammates away will be essential and some of the big bodied mids might be great at this but I don't think their size will be as useful now as it was previously.

 

[Jimmy Willis Jawline]

I dont think Guthrie is a world beater, but I definitely feel he has been more handy than he is getting credit for here. I cant think of anyone who is being held down due to his being named week after week.

 

[Spazz Cat]

I'm really scratching my head here, i'm not sure what some people expect. No premiership side in history has had 6 Matty Scarlett calibre players in the backline, 6 Juniors in the midfield and 6 Seniors up forwards. For one, you wouldn't be able to fit them into the salary cap.

Are some posters to young to know or to old to remember some of the poor sides that we have seen in the hoops before.
Take this side that was smashed by a bottom four side in Adelaide by 63 points in 1999.

https://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails...5c279f6e98c5d3546a8abdf9be2d&Sort=Rating Desc

Had he played back then, you could just about make a case for Cam Guthrie to be in the top 10 in that side and now we are arguing about whether Cam is in the best 22 of today's side. At some point we as Geelong fans will be watching similar sides as the above run out again and there will be bigger issues to worry about. In the meantime, we have a pretty good list and the problem is not the players, it's how we are using them.

Cam Guthrie is never going to be an Ablett, Danger or Selwood. He's probably not going to reach Mitch Duncan's level but the level he has reached is good enough to be a player capable of holding his position in the best 22. He is every bit as important to a premiership for us as Josh Hunt, Wojo and Stokesy were to our 07-11 era.

We already have 8 backmen in the team. 9 now if you think Clark should get a start.
All except possibly Taylor, Clark, Kolo are better than him.
How is he as important as Wojo etc.
How many players was he better than in that 99 team anyway?
6? Nearly all of which played under 50 games.

 

[goyoucatters]

Loving this thread. The concept of it, that is, not the content.

Both this one and the Scott thread now have such potential for mitigating the angst that spills tangentially into so many other threads as posters vent their disdain for these two reviled figures that they perceive to be emblematic of almost all that is wrong with the GFC.

So hopefully all the Cuthrie vitriol can reside here and allow for more balanced posting in so many of the other threads across our board.

And, given the length of Cuth's contract, I look forward expectantly to him following in the coach's footsteps with his very own Parts II and III to come.

Would be great to see Dante's legendary words of caution posted in the thread title as well...

"Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate"

 

[CatFan79]

Surely if it's less congested big-bodied mids are going to be less important not more?

This is the official scale of importance:

big bodied > small bodied > big haired

 

[BotsMaster]

So who comes in for Guthrie this week?

 

[Warhorse]

#guthintheguts

 

[TheMenz Gallery]

We already have 8 backmen in the team. 9 now if you think Clark should get a start.
All except possibly Taylor, Clark, Kolo are better than him.

He's not competing against all 9 for a position. Of the ones he is competing with I would say he's more versatile and can play elsewhere. Happy with him on the bench in my best 22. How many other sides can say their depth extends to having a 100 gamer on the bench?
Would I be happy with his output if he was the highest paid player at the club? No
Am I happy with what he's doing for a guy who is coming off the bench? Yes

How is important as Wojo etc.

There were 18 All Australians from the 07-11 sides, Hunt, Wojo and Stokesy weren't any of them. That puts them on the fringe. They still had a role to play in that team as does Guthrie now.

How many players was he better than in that 99 team anyway?
6? Nearly all of which played under 50 games.

I would say there is as many as 11 or 12 that he's been as good as or better than. Of the players i rated higher, Barnesy, Bazza, Rocking Ronnie and Pickers all had their critics. The point i was trying to make is Cam is no world beater but he's hardly the worst to ever pull on the blue and white.

We have a lot to be excited about as Geelong fans as we have only missed the finals once in 12 years. As a result, it would seem some peoples expectations are ridiculously high. If any player rated about 17-22 on any list plays 4 or 5 good games for the year and breaks even against their opponent for the rest then they have done their job. Cam can do that.

 

[PatrickBateman]

#guthintheguts

Post of the thread.

 

[Spazz Cat]

He's not competing against all 9 for a position. Of the ones he is competing with I would say he's more versatile and can play elsewhere. Happy with him on the bench in my best 22. How many other sides can say their depth extends to having a 100 gamer on the bench?
Would I be happy with his output if he was the highest paid player at the club? No
Am I happy with what he's doing for a guy who is coming off the bench? Yes

There were 18 All Australians from the 07-11 sides, Hunt, Wojo and Stokesy weren't any of them. That puts them on the fringe. They still had a role to play in that team as does Guthrie now.

I would say there is as many as 11 or 12 that he's been as good as or better than. Of the players i rated higher, Barnesy, Bazza, Rocking Ronnie and Pickers all had their critics. The point i was trying to make is Cam is no world beater but he's hardly the worst to ever pull on the blue and white.

We have a lot to be excited about as Geelong fans as we have only missed the finals once in 12 years. As a result, it would seem some peoples expectations are ridiculously high. If any player rated about 17-22 on any list plays 4 or 5 good games for the year and breaks even against their opponent for the rest then they have done their job. Cam can do that.

Yeah he could probably do that.
If that's all were hoping for I think that's a tad low. He's been on the list since 2011.
The thing I said also goes for mids and forwards.
Just not playing well enough to even make the bench IMO. Especially if Cocky actually plays, Clark and Constable make the team.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

If someone had've insisted I get haircut back when I was playing, I would have politely asked them to EAD.

Homophobe. There's no place for that these days. Be better.

 

[Jhye Clark 13]

He works hard and for all I know is a great clubman. But players like him and Murdoch getting into the 100s of games is an indictment on our injury management and recruiting. He doesn’t get results on the field, and clearly has had so many chances that all speculation about his abilities needs to cease. He’s not getting any better.

He works hard?

 

[Willo_]

View attachment 628927

Yes, short back and sides make all the difference...

Rangas are barely human and therefore shouldn't be used for any arguments one way or another *



*NOT EVEN SORRY IF I OFFEND ANY RANGAS

 

[Ray Donovan]

Surely if it's less congested big-bodied mids are going to be less important not more?

Under what logic ?

The center clearances are going to be one of the most important aspects of scoring in 2019.

So you are trying to tell me that a clearance specialist like a Pat Cripps, Nat Fyfe, Martin, Dangerfield, Oliver, Pendlebury.

Will be less important ? In 2019 because of less congestion.

Boundary throw ins, ball ups are still exactly the same. So they will lose value there how?

So you cannot stop the best clearance specialists with high numbers around the ball. What do you expect to happen with less congestion they will stop getting it because of more space.

You still need to win the ball first your theory revolves around having the ball.
And doing circle work.

 

[Tinlids]

I'm really scratching my head here, i'm not sure what some people expect. No premiership side in history has had 6 Matty Scarlett calibre players in the backline, 6 Juniors in the midfield and 6 Seniors up forwards. For one, you wouldn't be able to fit them into the salary cap.

Are some posters to young to know or to old to remember some of the poor sides that we have seen in the hoops before.
Take this side that was smashed by a bottom four side in Adelaide by 63 points in 1999.

https://finalsiren.com/MatchDetails.asp?GameID=638&Code=7c0e5c279f6e98c5d3546a8abdf9be2d&Sort=Rating Desc

Had he played back then, you could just about make a case for Cam Guthrie to be in the top 10 in that side and now we are arguing about whether Cam is in the best 22 of today's side. At some point we as Geelong fans will be watching similar sides as the above run out again and there will be bigger issues to worry about. In the meantime, we have a pretty good list and the problem is not the players, it's how we are using them.

Cam Guthrie is never going to be an Ablett, Danger or Selwood. He's probably not going to reach Mitch Duncan's level but the level he has reached is good enough to be a player capable of holding his position in the best 22. He is every bit as important to a premiership for us as Josh Hunt, Wojo and Stokesy were to our 07-11 era.

Agree the 3 you mention weren’t in our best 10 or so players but they all had elite qualities:

Stokes - could kick a bag of 5+
Wojo- elite speed / penetrating kick.
Hunt - elite penetrating kick.

Guthrie is just a little vanilla and I’d personally take any of the above ahead of him in a finals situation as he unfortunately doesn’t seem to have an elite quality to place him in an obvious position on the field anymore. He’s just a “talented” footballer we keep in the 22.