Opinion The 'Carlton related stuff that doesn't need it's own thread' thread Part 2

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BigFrizz36 said:
Jacks a lovely field kick. Has got better in his goal kicking and if he kicks 3 straight tonight everything will be forgotten.

I would say though I would prefer him to try and move the ball on quickly than take that 5% chance shot from way out on the boundary.

Must say though that provided he's getting plenty of shots on goal like last week then things aren't too bad. He's smart and disciplined enough to turn it round.
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He is a smart user going inside 50, but his goal kicking hasn't improved at all
 
Arr0w said:
He is a smart user going inside 50, but his goal kicking hasn't improved at all
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I would argue that it has but only marginally. Went from 50% in 2020 (small sample size) to 43% in 2021 to 55% in 2022. Should be at least 67% - 2 in every 3.

As stated it might help if he moved the ball on rather than take that ridiculously hard shot tucked up against the boundary.

Personally think that he will kick 25+ goals this year provided he stays fit.
 

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BigFrizz36 said:
I would argue that it has but only marginally. Went from 50% in 2020 (small sample size) to 43% in 2021 to 55% in 2022. Should be at least 67% - 2 in every 3.

As stated it might help if he moved the ball on rather than take that ridiculously hard shot tucked up against the boundary.

Personally think that he will kick 25+ goals this year provided he stays fit.
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will we eventually incorporate this into the club insignia ya think? "healthy mind in a healthy body........provided he stays fit".......
 
Arr0w said:
Goal assists is one of the worst stats when it comes to gauging a player's effectiveness, as it's reliant on his teammate to kick accurately

Score involvements is better, but even then, any player that turns the ball over in the chain, negates the effectiveness of others in that link

Jack just needs to kick more gettable goals, those within 35 metres that aren't on a tight angle
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Agree with score involvements being a better gauge. Even scoring-shot involvements, as the player might kick it OOTF.

Over time however, the ratio of one player to the next will remain similiar. It's not like Jack would create a lot more point-assists relative to any of the other players. Same with a ball being turned over in a chain.

Also agree he needs to kick more goals. The assist conversation arose in response to claims by other poster/s that Jack creates a lot of goals, in particular through his good kicking inside 50. This is a myth.
 
Earls Smother said:
Agree with score involvements being a better gauge. Even scoring-shot involvements, as the player might kick it OOTF.

Over time however, the ratio of one player to the next will remain similiar. It's not like Jack would create a lot more point-assists relative to any of the other players. Same with a ball being turned over in a chain.

Also agree he needs to kick more goals. The assist conversation arose in response to claims by other poster/s that Jack creates a lot of goals, in particular through his good kicking inside 50. This is a myth.
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Screenshot_20230303-130252_Opera.jpg

As you can see above, apart from Charlie and Harry where their own scoring are part of the figures, Jack, predominantly as a forward, sits in amongst others that played most of their minutes out of forward 50

Not suggesting his inside 50s were elite in number, as he was generally receiving the ball in the arc, I suggested, if he was to remain in the team, he either plays/leads further up the ground and or his goal kicking needs to improve
 
Arr0w said:
Think Boyd is best 22 when fit
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Going forward, yes.

Though I don't think he has enough runs on the board to be straight back in after injury.

Could see a vfl game or two before senior call up. Particularly if side is playing well when he becomes available.

Perhaps next year he'll be straight back in.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

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Earls Smother said:
I'm not sure what you mean by assumptions?

Jack had 4 total goal assists for the season, from all sources, not just kicks. This is fact, not an assumption. 17 players had more goal assists, including Jack Carroll from just 5 games. Mitch McGovern equalled JSOS from just 7 games.

The 5 players mentioned all had at least 11, with Durdin leading the way on 13 i.e. 3 times as many as Jack.

Jack is the polar opposite of Plowman in terms of supporter recognition/notoriety. Plowman stuffs up badly - sticks in supporter's minds and the myth is perpetuated. JSOS delivers a beautiful lace out pass that results in a goal - once every 5 weeks (maximum, because there are multiple other sources of assists). Myth is that he is creating a lot of goals because of his hard work and good delivery by foot.
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I made a comment about quality of kicks inside 50. You responded with a comment about goal assists, as if the two are equivalent. They're not, and I pointed out some reasons why they're not. You didn't really engage with any of those reasons.

In the post I'm quoting you've continued with your focus on goal assists while ignoring my actual question about whether you would say any of the players you listed is a better kick inside 50 than JSOS. So I'll ask again. Do you believe Owies is a superior kick inside 50? Cripps? Durdin?

If you want to talk about goal assists: I'm not a huge fan of that stat for reasons other posters have mentioned. Nevertheless, I'd absolutely agree that I'd like to see a higher quantity of those from JSOS this year. I hope to see that come from an increase in opportunity (assuming less time spent rucking compared to last year), improved conversion from other forwards, and yes, player improvement from JSOS too. But I believe JSOS offers something that few if any others on our list possess.

If you don't want to respond to my actual question, that's fine, people don't all have to respond to every comment that comes their way. But in that case there's probably little point continuing the exchange.
 
Arr0w said:
View attachment 1620231

As you can see above, apart from Charlie and Harry where their own scoring are part of the figures, Jack, predominantly as a forward, sits in amongst others that played most of their minutes out of forward 50

Not suggesting his inside 50s were elite in number, as he was generally receiving the ball in the arc, I suggested, if he was to remain in the team, he either plays/leads further up the ground and or his goal kicking needs to improve
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You and I could bore everyone shitless using stats to debate the matter. He did only average just under 2.5 inside 50's per game - and that was with spending time stationed outside 50 as a ruckman.

You are right, he doesn't get up the ground enough, or when he does, he doesn't get the ball enough. If he stays closer to goal his output should be nearer to a Matthew Wright. He wasn't blessed with natural physical attributes and was a hard worker (like Jack), but he made the most of his opportunities, finishing high in both our goal kicking and goal assists every year.

We all want Jack to get better - he has given himself the best chance to do that with a flawless pre-season.
 
Earls Smother said:
You and I could bore everyone shitless using stats to debate the matter.
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Jack Nicholson Yes GIF

Nothing more 'enthralling' than quoting stats......😜
 
My Hat said:
I made a comment about quality of kicks inside 50. You responded with a comment about goal assists, as if the two are equivalent. They're not, and I pointed out some reasons why they're not. You didn't really engage with any of those reasons.

In the post I'm quoting you've continued with your focus on goal assists while ignoring my actual question about whether you would say any of the players you listed is a better kick inside 50 than JSOS. So I'll ask again. Do you believe Owies is a superior kick inside 50? Cripps? Durdin?

If you want to talk about goal assists: I'm not a huge fan of that stat for reasons other posters have mentioned. Nevertheless, I'd absolutely agree that I'd like to see a higher quantity of those from JSOS this year. I hope to see that come from an increase in opportunity (assuming less time spent rucking compared to last year), improved conversion from other forwards, and yes, player improvement from JSOS too. But I believe JSOS offers something that few if any others on our list possess.

If you don't want to respond to my actual question, that's fine, people don't all have to respond to every comment that comes their way. But in that case there's probably little point continuing the exchange.
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I could just as easily say your comment re kicking quality was irrelevant in the context of my post that you replied to.

Is it ok for you to introduce a new aspect to the conversation, but not for me to extrapolate on what this quality kicking is actually producing? The 2 are inter-related surely?

FWIW I do agree he looks a better field kick than those 5 players.
 
Earls Smother said:
You and I could bore everyone shitless using stats to debate the matter. He did only average just under 2.5 inside 50's per game - and that was with spending time stationed outside 50 as a ruckman.

You are right, he doesn't get up the ground enough, or when he does, he doesn't get the ball enough. If he stays closer to goal his output should be nearer to a Matthew Wright. He wasn't blessed with natural physical attributes and was a hard worker (like Jack), but he made the most of his opportunities, finishing high in both our goal kicking and goal assists every year.

We all want Jack to get better - he has given himself the best chance to do that with a flawless pre-season.
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Too late.
 
Earls Smother said:
I could just as easily say your comment re kicking quality was irrelevant in the context of my post that you replied to.

Is it ok for you to introduce a new aspect to the conversation, but not for me to extrapolate on what this quality kicking is actually producing? The 2 are inter-related surely?

FWIW I do agree he looks a better field kick than those 5 players.
Click to expand...

The specific context I was replying to was this:

Earls Smother said:
By any measure, other than trying hard, he is under pressure to be in our best team.
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I was putting forward a facet of the game (other than trying hard) in which I consider him to be in the upper echelon of our list. Nothing more than that. It sounds like perhaps we might agree (or at least not vigorously disagree) on that point? If so, then yes, there's certainly broader discussion that can be had about how his strengths do or don't line up with his stats. But I'd suggest there's more to it than just looking at the GA column, some reasons for which I've noted above.

Edit: If 'upper echelon' comes across as a softening of my position, I said (and believe) that he's the best on our list at that element of the game. Which you may or may not agree with, I'm not sure, since that hasn't really been the focus of the exchange.
 
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