The Death Penalty for Chan

[ydraw]

If you don't agree with the death penalty full stop, then why are you attempting to justify the U.S. Killing people because they are murderers and not drug traffickers.

I am not justifying the killing. I am explaining to you why people in Australia don't make it a big deal of it. Because by and large people think murder is a far more serious crime than smuggling. You comically claimed it was because of racism. Are you retracting that yet, or are you going to keep digging?

 

[Jiska]

I am not justifying the killing. I am explaining to you why people in Australia don't make it a big deal of it. Because by and large people think murder is a far more serious crime than smuggling. You comically claimed it was because of racism. Are you retracting that yet, or are you going to keep digging?

I'm not quite sure how you are qualified to decide why people don't make a big deal of of US murdering people. No doubt you can speak for yourself, but now your telling me that it's not what you think, it's what most other people think, which in itself is an astounding claim to make.

Everything I'm reading online in opinions, and indeed in this thread, points to people being against the death penalty full stop, as both you and I are, not that they think the punishment didn't fit the crime.

 

[ydraw]

I'm not quite sure how you are qualified to decide why people don't make a big deal of of US murdering people. No doubt you can speak for yourself, but now your telling me that it's not what you think, it's what most other people think, which in itself is an astounding claim to make.

Even in Australia people have never stopped supporting the death penalty completely. More than 50% of Australians would vote to reintroduce capital punishment for serious crimes like terrorism if a referendum was held.

The issue that most people have is it being applied to victimless crimes like smuggling or adultery. Almost nobody is in favour of the death penalty for such crimes.

52% support the death penalty for terrorism
Only 26% support the death penalty for drug trafficking

 

[Jiska]

Only 26% support the death penalty for drug trafficking

Polls. Please. Such a waste of time. Pick the right subsection and you can get any result you want.

52% supported Australians breaking laws overseas being executed for drug trafficking.

 

[ydraw]

Note that the poll you linked to is asking a different question.

"Should people convicted in another country be executed" vs "Should australia execute drug traffickers".

The poll I linked to contains responses for both questions separately. Obviously you didn't read it.

 

[Jiska]

Note that the poll you linked to is asking a different question.

"Should people convicted in another country be executed" vs "Should australia execute drug traffickers".

*slaps forehead*

This whole entire thread, all 147 pages, is dedicated to executions in another country. We're not talking about executions in Australia, unless you're somehow trying to alter the 147 page topic all of a sudden?

 

[ydraw]

*slaps forehead*

This whole entire thread, all 147 pages, is dedicated to executions in another country. We're not talking about executions in Australia, unless you're somehow trying to alter the 147 page topic all of a sudden?

It was you who altered the topic:

Everything I'm reading online in opinions, and indeed in this thread, points to people being against the death penalty full stop, as both you and I are, not that they think the punishment didn't fit the crime.

I have provided evidence to refute that claim. Most notably where 52% of Australians support the death penalty being applied by an Australian court in cases of terrorism, but only 26% in cases of drug trafficking.

 

[Jiska]

It was you who altered the topic:

I have provided evidence to refute that claim.

Everything I'm reading online in opinions, and indeed in this thread, points to people being against the death penalty full stop, as both you and I are, not that they think the punishment didn't fit the crime.

No you haven't. As highlighted, I wasn't talking about the small sample base some random opinion poll was done on, I was talking about what *I* have read. There were dozens of opinion polls saying Jeff Kennett would wipe the floor with Steve Bracks too. Polls are a guide. They take a small sample size. They may be more relevant where demographics come into play, as in elections, but on something like this where different people in the same house can have wide and differing opinions and it depends on who answers the phone, I'm not sure they can be reliable. As per my post, I was referring to what I have experienced in my readings. If you don't believe me, scroll back through this thread to start with, given it are the comments within this thread we are discussing and which have fair more relevance to the discussion than a random poll.

 

[ydraw]

So you're just arguing that your own anecdotal evidence trumps polls. I guess we are done.

 

[Jiska]

It is interesting, though, that people are happy for drug traffickers to be executed overseas (52%) but not here (26%). Somewhat hypocritical.

 

[Jiska]

So you're just arguing that your own anecdotal evidence trumps polls. I guess we are done.

I can only discuss my personal experiences and subsequent analysis. I don't believe everything I read.

 

[ydraw]

I can only discuss my personal experiences and subsequent analysis. I don't believe everything I read.

So you're just arguing that your own anecdotal evidence trumps polls. I guess we are done.

 

[Jiska]

So you're just arguing that your own anecdotal evidence trumps polls. I guess we are done.

 

[medusala]

Everything I'm reading online in opinions, and indeed in this thread, points to people being against the death penalty full stop, as both you and I are, not that they think the punishment didn't fit the crime.

.

It is interesting, though, that people are happy for drug traffickers to be executed overseas (52%) but not here (26%). .

A doesn't appear to tie in with B.

 

[Jiska]

.

A doesn't appear to tie in with B.

I've already explained above.

One is what I've read and experienced in this thread, news sites and FB
One is a poll result

You forgot to bold the important part:

Everything I'm reading online in opinions, and indeed in this thread, points to people being against the death penalty full stop, as both you and I are, not that they think the punishment didn't fit the crime.

 

[ydraw]

The important part is the polls, unless you've read thousands of opinion pieces and tallied up the fors and againsts, which you haven't.

 

[skilts]

Indonesia have the right to enforce law and order as they see fit. Just as they have no right to tell Australia IT MUST execute people, we have no right to say it MUST NOT execute people. We accept the right of the U.S. to execute people as they see fit, just not Indonseia because, well, they executed an Australian and realistically, even though we'll never admit it, we choose to treat those little Asian differently because their not White so they're not as educated and as respectable as our U.S. best buddies



Oh goody. Another troll who is unable to comprehend the English language. Hard to debate against people that are devoid of such basic education. Less time trolling the Internet and more time studying required.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-death-penalty-for-chan.224245/page-125#post-38238299
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-death-penalty-for-chan.224245/page-143#post-38311311
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-death-penalty-for-chan.224245/page-144#post-38355513

In the first paragraph, you repeat verbatim exactly what I accuse you of saying, about state-sponsored murder being only a legal issue. What is the purpose of doing that? It was already established that this is what you were saying.

Your second paragraph still fails to answer my accusation that your loony tunes embrace of mass murder is born of some deep-seated trauma in your past involving drugs. There must be a reason for your irrational, close-minded and vicious disregard for human rights, but you choose still not to provide it. What is it that has caused you to adopt such a cavalier attitude to the inherent value of human life?

BTW, it's not because I have a hatred of little yellow people that I think this way. I'm equally appalled by the state-sponsored murder of the citizens of any country. That you suggest that my reasons for objection to such mass murder are racist is beneath even you. It seems there are no depths you'll not plumb to pursue your blood-thirsty obsession.

 

[Jiska]

The important part is the polls, unless you've read thousands of opinion pieces and tallied up the fors and againsts, which you haven't.

The 1993 Federal Election polls, the Victoria State Election Polls 1999 and the QLD State Election polls 2015 were all grossly wrong and proven so. Unless you have a plebiscite or an election, a poll is a guide only. Perhaps I've only come across the other 74% that don't agree with your polls in the subsection that is BigFooty, and Facebook but that seems unlikely.

I'm not really sure what point we're arguing anyway. Whether people are against the death penalty full stop, or whether they are against it for everything except terrorism is largely irrelevant to the executions of these two men. You've just chosen to pick one sentence out of thousands and run with it, taking the discussion completely off toxic and out of context of what that sentence was written about, which is generally what people do when they've exhausted their arguments.

 

[Jiska]

In the first paragraph, you repeat verbatim exactly what I accuse you of saying, about state-sponsored murder being only a legal issue. What is the purpose of doing that? It was already established that this is what you were saying.

Your second paragraph still fails to answer my accusation that your loony tunes embrace of mass murder is born of some deep-seated trauma in your past involving drugs. There must be a reason for your irrational, close-minded and vicious disregard for human rights, but you choose still not to provide it. What is it that has caused you to adopt such a cavalier attitude to the inherent value of human life?

BTW, it's not because I have a hatred of little yellow people that I think this way. I'm equally appalled by the state-sponsored murder of the citizens of any country. That you suggest that my reasons for objection to such mass murder are racist is beneath even you. It seems there are no depths you'll not plumb to pursue your blood-thirsty obsession.

Again, you have failed to comprehend my argument and choose to twist my words to suit your trolling. I'm not interested in your assumptions that I endorse mass murder or that I have a history with drug dealers. I've never stated either, and in fact I've stated dozens of times that I don't agree with the death penalty. You're just trying to derail the discussion and start an argument based on opinions that I simply don't have, and frankly I'm not interested in that type of immaturity. If you can't comprehend what I'm saying, and stick to discussing what I've stated, rather than your assumptions, we're done here.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/the-death-penalty-for-chan.224245/page-144#post-38355513

 

[medusala]

One is what I've read and experienced in this thread, news sites and FB
One is a poll result

Ie one presumably has some statistical validity whilst one does not.

 

[plastikman]

7 billion people on this planet & we think the biggest problem is a couple of tossers kicking the bucket. Phew.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

7 billion people on this planet & we think the biggest problem is a couple of tossers kicking the bucket. Phew.

The biggest problem? Was there a referendum whereby the world's biggest problem was voted on?

I'm pretty sure that this comes firmly under the banner of hyperbole designed to dismiss.

Some people can find multiple issues to discuss and be concerned about.

 

[Northalives]

Any credibility leaves the room at this point. Are you a sit down comedian? Not telling corrupt murderers where they can find more victims is a greater crime than cold-blooded, premeditated state-sponsored murder. Your moral compass moves from hopelessly skewed to non existent. Consider yourself corrected.

Jiska and his blood-thirsty cronies justify their position by asserting the overarching legal rights of the Indonesians to commit mass murder. Above all, murder is a moral question, not a purely legal one. Were this not so, upon what basis could we possibly object to any murder? For the law to have any part in redressing alleged crimes by offenders there must firstly be seen to be a moral transgression. In such cases, it is our moral indignation which drives a response. Only once this comes into play is a legal remedy sought. To say that putting a heap of people to death has no moral element in it is ludicrous.

It is of note that Jiska has still not provided us with his real reason for advocating these murders. He actually hates drugs and drug dealers with a pathological intensity. It is for this reason that he barracks so fiercely for these murders. Rational and humane thought is a "No appearance, Your Worship". Something catastrophic must have happened in his life to render him so devoid of compassion. Sad really.

What the hell are you talking about?

Indonesia seeks to protect it's community, it's country, from mass addictions to amphetamines, heroin and cocaine by executing drug pedlars, drug lords and others associated with the drug trade in what are basically acts of terrorism upon their society.

We, on the other hand, we throw victims of the Sukamaran/Chan cabals in jail whilst the Sukamarans and Chans, if they ever are caught and convicted, they run their empires from within jail and when they get out, they carry on their "enterprises" and all the while, the drug epidemic in Australia worsens by the minute.

We bomb the crap out of innocents in order to bring down "terrorism" in countries that most people in Australian shopping centers couldn't identify on a map, we treat the first Australians as an irritation and tell them that living on their land is a "life style choice", we sanction the abuse and harm of children in detention centers but who gives a **ck about that?

We seem to be more outraged at the treatment of drug pushers and heads of drug cartels in foreign counties than we do about the monstrous treatment of innocent people by OUR government, in OUR name so don't give me the moral compass crap.

I do not agree with capital punishment. I do not agree with us interfering in another countries judicial system. I agree wholeheartedly with people venting their anger and speaking out against what they perceive as barbaric treatment by others, like the death penalty, like the imprisonment and sentencing to death of Egyptians who hold up signs in Egypt saying, "what happened to the government we democratically elected?" but for heaven's sake, to accuse me and others of immorality for pointing out that the outpouring of grief for two convicted drug barons being put to death for committing/trying to commit what is no more than a terrorist act in a foreign country, is preposterous and hysterical.

I ask the question again: if these characters were truly reformed and wanted to take their place back in society, why didn't they tell the Indonesian and Australian law enforcement agencies who the "big boys" were in the drug empires and give them information as to the importation and distribution of these society crippling drugs?

 

[Lebbo73]

What the hell are you talking about?

Indonesia seeks to protect it's community, it's country, from mass addictions to amphetamines, heroin and cocaine by executing drug pedlars, drug lords and others associated with the drug trade in what are basically acts of terrorism upon their society.

We, on the other hand, we throw victims of the Sukamaran/Chan cabals in jail whilst the Sukamarans and Chans, if they ever are caught and convicted, they run their empires from within jail and when they get out, they carry on their "enterprises" and all the while, the drug epidemic in Australia worsens by the minute.

We bomb the crap out of innocents in order to bring down "terrorism" in countries that most people in Australian shopping centers couldn't identify on a map, we treat the first Australians as an irritation and tell them that living on their land is a "life style choice", we sanction the abuse and harm of children in detention centers but who gives a **ck about that?

We seem to be more outraged at the treatment of drug pushers and heads of drug cartels in foreign counties than we do about the monstrous treatment of innocent people by OUR government, in OUR name so don't give me the moral compass crap.

I do not agree with capital punishment. I do not agree with us interfering in another countries judicial system. I agree wholeheartedly with people venting their anger and speaking out against what they perceive as barbaric treatment by others, like the death penalty, like the imprisonment and sentencing to death of Egyptians who hold up signs in Egypt saying, "what happened to the government we democratically elected?" but for heaven's sake, to accuse me and others of immorality for pointing out that the outpouring of grief for two convicted drug barons being put to death for committing/trying to commit what is no more than a terrorist act in a foreign country, is preposterous and hysterical.

I ask the question again: if these characters were truly reformed and wanted to take their place back in society, why didn't they tell the Indonesian and Australian law enforcement agencies who the "big boys" were in the drug empires and give them information as to the importation and distribution of these society crippling drugs?

They threatened to kill members of their families.

 

[Crankyhawk]

.

A doesn't appear to tie in with B.

Meh happy to execute both home and away. It is cheaper for our taxpayers for it to be abroad though.