Society/Culture The Gender Pay Gap

[the_interloper]

Companies put all sorts of things in contracts. Doesnt mean its legal.

Non compete clauses are commonplace yet almost never enforceable through the courts.

I worked with a guy who quit his senior role and took his entire team and their clients to the competitor. There were talks about lawyers but I never heard any more than that.

Funny thing is a few years later my company bought out the other company and he came back, with most of that team.

If there was serious anger at what he had done I would think they would have retrenched him rather than bring him back.

Yes great call, I had a non compete clause in a contract a few years ago. When I left I got legal advice and basically they said it was unenforceable, they'd pretty much have to prove that you'd used confidential company information to steal a client, and then that would have to result in a loss of revenue big enough to want to fight it through the courts.

I'm not sure even if there was a clause in a contact they'd want to sue over revealing what you make to a co worker, maybe use it as an excuse to get rid of a low performer though.

 

[HairyO]

Yes great call, I had a non compete clause in a contract a few years ago. When I left I got legal advice and basically they said it was unenforceable, they'd pretty much have to prove that you'd used confidential company information to steal a client, and then that would have to result in a loss of revenue big enough to want to fight it through the courts.

I'm not sure even if there was a clause in a contact they'd want to sue over revealing what you make to a co worker, maybe use it as an excuse to get rid of a low performer though.

Exactly. Clauses to scare you in to behaving.

So much cheaper than paying people a little extra and actually sharing the profits more.

 

[faible]

actually sharing the profits more

This assumes there's much in the way of profits to share. Small business and big corporates are very different, people like to chunk 'business' together but the reality is they're on different planets.

 

[HairyO]

This assumes there's much in the way of profits to share. Small business and big corporates are very different, people like to chunk 'business' together but the reality is they're on different planets.

How many small businesses have non compete clauses and bans on disclosing salaries in their employment contracts?

 

[faible]

How many small businesses have non compete clauses and bans on disclosing salaries in their employment contracts?

Non-competes are pretty common for people in a client facing sales role, so I'd say plenty would. Doubtful many would have the willingness or ability to pursue legal action from it though.

I just often see 'business' grouped together as a homogenous chunk, when for the most part people are actually talking about big corporates, and small to midsize privately owned businesses get left behind and treated as though they're a multi-million dollar profit making enterprise rolling in cash.

 

[Fadge]

So now that you've danced around the question for an hour, can you explain why you see this as such a problem? What is your issues with employee's discussing their salaries past some might get jealous?

Refer to my earlier post

Where does it stop? Do you discuss every pay rise you get at salary review time? Every bonus?

Salary is confidential for a reason. Would you like it if your manager sent a company wide email telling everyone what you're being paid? Because that is what you risk doing by telling even one person and letting the office grapevine do its thing.

Notwithstanding the fact I'm simply pointing out the fact you're likely in breach of company policy and/or your employment contract by doing so.

 

[Mofra]

How many small businesses have non compete clauses and bans on disclosing salaries in their employment contracts?

I've heard of quite a few non-compete clauses in SMEs in the financial services industry. Haven't heard much (if at all) on disclosing salaries in smaller agencies.

 

[JyeDye]

Refer to my earlier post

Where does it stop? Do you discuss every pay rise you get at salary review time? Every bonus?

Salary is confidential for a reason. Would you like it if your manager sent a company wide email telling everyone what you're being paid? Because that is what you risk doing by telling even one person and letting the office grapevine do its thing.

Notwithstanding the fact I'm simply pointing out the fact you're likely in breach of company policy and/or your employment contract by doing so.

Where does it stop?

“Hey man, how much are you getting paid for this job?”
“Like $100k”
“Wow what the hell, I’m only getting $80k”
“Damn, don’t know what’s happened there”
“Yeah, I might ask for a raise or look elsewhere now that I know how much I should be getting paid”
“You do you man”

About there.
It’s really not that deep.

Would I want my pay openly displayed to everyone? Probably not, but that’s completely different to me not having the option to tell someone how much I’m getting paid. Office gossip is office gossip, that’s completely different to written policies. I genuinely don’t see a reason to support a policy like this other than trying to rip off employees. Seems like you really want to scam your workers or something.

 

[Gethelred]

Sincerely, did you expect that to be so controversial Fadge?

 

[Fadge]

Sincerely, did you expect that to be so controversial Fadge?

I always suspected I operated in a very different world to much of the BigFooty population, and this little back and forth confirms it...

Also, I've been called many things during my time on BigFooty, but 'criminal' might just take the cake.

 

[MrKK]

I've never heard of a general employee policy about discussing your own salary. Roles with access to other staff payroll information have a separate policy about protecting that information. I'd think it would be a grey area if A told B their salary, who then discussed it with C.

 

[Scotland]

Is this thread still about the gender pay gap?

 

[Evolved1]

Is this thread still about the gender pay gap?

The issues discussed over the last few pages of this thread are approached differently by women and men (as a whole) in my experience, so I'd say yes.

 

[Scotland]

And stengle will be getting a lot more when he renegotiates his contract. He may even ask for it to be done before it expires. Players have done that before.

He might. He could get injured or have more off field issues. Or he could sign a big deal then do a knee and never play again.

Point being that you sign what you sign. He can ask for an extension now, and Geelong can give it to him or not. If he comes out of contract and another team offers him more money he can ask Geelong to match or request a trade etc.

Jerry Reinsdorf in The Last Dance told Scottie Pippen not to sign the 7 year contract he signed because he expected revenues to go up and $2-3m a year to no longer be a high player salary. He was right, Shaq was making more per year as a rookie being drafted 2 years later. But as he said, if you choose to sign the contract don't come to me and complain about it later.

 

[Scotland]

The issues discussed over the last few pages of this thread are approached differently by women and men (as a whole) in my experience, so I'd say yes.

Good segue. 'It's illegal to talk about pay' was getting weird.

Men and women are different, and do do certain things differently. Yet people are obsessed with expecting the same outcomes to occur.

If men, on average, are better negotiators than women is it fair or unfair that men, on average, are paid more than women?

If it's not fair, what is the solution?

This is a separate (but related) discussion to something like electricians being paid 30 or 40% more than primary teachers with each field have a very different gender balance.

 

[Fadge]

Good segue. 'It's illegal to talk about pay' was getting weird.

Even though noone said that, it is more of a thing than the mythical Gender Pay Gap.

 

[Scotland]

Even though noone said that, it is more of a thing than the mythical Gender Pay Gap.

The gender pay gap isn't mythical, it's misunderstood and/or misrepresented.

 

[Seeds]

Refer to my earlier post

Where does it stop? Do you discuss every pay rise you get at salary review time? Every bonus?

Salary is confidential for a reason. Would you like it if your manager sent a company wide email telling everyone what you're being paid? Because that is what you risk doing by telling even one person and letting the office grapevine do its thing.

Notwithstanding the fact I'm simply pointing out the fact you're likely in breach of company policy and/or your employment contract by doing so.

No you arent in breach of your contract to disclose your wage cos its illegal to write such a clause into a contract.

and confidential just means other people cant talk about your wage. It doesnt mean the wage earner cant. They are free to spread confidential information about themsevles as much as they want.

 

[Fadge]

No you arent in breach of your contract to disclose your wage cos its illegal to write such a clause into a contract.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Why do you have the understanding pay secrecy clauses in contracts are illegal?

You need to stop spreading misinformation, particularly when it comes to matters of law.

Note, I am referring specifically to Australian law in this instance.

 

[Fadge]

and confidential just means other people cant talk about your wage. It doesnt mean the wage earner cant. They are free to spread confidential information about themsevles as much as they want.

Not when the wage earner has a pay secrecy clause in their employment contract, or if there is a clause prohibiting disclosure of pay as a company policy (which is very common).

 

[Fadge]

The gender pay gap isn't mythical, it's misunderstood and/or misrepresented.

Interested in your view here.

How would it be better represented?

For me, I think it would be better represented by including productive worked hours into the equation. I acknowledge this is difficult to do, but I suspect if men on average worked 10% more productive hours than women, and the wage gap as it is currently calculated at 14%, the real wage gap is 4%. (Then different vocations, etc. can be considered)

I actually suspect the average variance in productive hours between men and women would be greater than 10%, and indeed greater than the 14% wage gap as it is currently calculated.

But of course that doesn't suit the narrative.

 

[Gethelred]

In order to get this out of the way:

Pay Secrecy: Can You Tell Employees To Keep Their Salary Secret? | Sprintlaw

Is pay secrecy legal? We explore whether employers can direct their employees to not disclose their pay, and what the law has to say.

sprintlaw.com.au

Seeds, pay secrecy clauses in employment contracts are legal in Australia, illegal in the UK and America. You are incorrect about it being illegal; whether it's immoral to keep your employees from discussing it or canny to talk about your remuneration with your co-workers is another thing entirely.

 

[spinynorman]

In order to get this out of the way:

Pay Secrecy: Can You Tell Employees To Keep Their Salary Secret? | Sprintlaw

Is pay secrecy legal? We explore whether employers can direct their employees to not disclose their pay, and what the law has to say.

sprintlaw.com.au

Seeds, pay secrecy clauses in employment contracts are legal in Australia, illegal in the UK and America. You are incorrect about it being illegal; whether it's immoral to keep your employees from discussing it or canny to not talk about your remuneration with your co-workers is another thing entirely.

Labor went to the election with the policy of prohibiting pay secrecy claws but nothing on that front yet (but let's hope they do it).

 

[faible]

Interested in your view here.

How would it be better represented?

For me, I think it would be better represented by including productive worked hours into the equation. I acknowledge this is difficult to do, but I suspect if men on average worked 10% more productive hours than women, and the wage gap as it is currently calculated at 14%, the real wage gap is 4%. (Then different vocations, etc. can be considered)

I actually suspect the average variance in productive hours between men and women would be greater than 10%, and indeed greater than the 14% wage gap as it is currently calculated.

But of course that doesn't suit the narrative.

There's a lot of nuance beyond assuming men are simply paid more than women, or that 'women's work' is valued lesser than men's.

Take mining versus child-care (thanks Betoota Advocate for bringing this one up).

Mining typically involves working in a remote location, doing multiple weeks at a time away from family, in uncomfortable conditions, doing work that not that many people really want to do because it's dirty / dangerous / manual. It results in having to pay quite a substantial amount of money to get people to do it. If you're a male or female willing to do that work, you can earn very good money.

Child-care meanwhile involves working in your home city, spending no weeks away from family, generally indoors, having to deal with children which isn't everyone's thing but isn't considered particularly high risk. There's substantially more people willing to do childcare work than commute to regional WA for weeks at a time to work on mine sites. Compounding this, is that child-care very specifically must cost less than the money made from alternative jobs, or else the primary carer simply won't bother returning to work and will stay at home doing it themselves.

This is a fairly easy example, because they sit at pretty opposite ends of the work spectrum. That's before even getting in to issue arising from having to take time off work due to pregnancy / early-childcare breastfeeding (where the mother opts to do so) where there's simply not an alternative due to biology kind of forcing only one sex to be able to do those things.

If someone takes time out of the workforce - for any reason - then they'll often fall behind equivalently capable and skilled people who don't take time out of the workforce. I do like Germany's approach to parental leave where a couple receives bonus paid leave time if they both take the leave, which helps level out the time out of the workforce factor.

 

[Seeds]

In order to get this out of the way:

Pay Secrecy: Can You Tell Employees To Keep Their Salary Secret? | Sprintlaw

Is pay secrecy legal? We explore whether employers can direct their employees to not disclose their pay, and what the law has to say.

sprintlaw.com.au

Seeds, pay secrecy clauses in employment contracts are legal in Australia, illegal in the UK and America. You are incorrect about it being illegal; whether it's immoral to keep your employees from discussing it or canny to talk about your remuneration with your co-workers is another thing entirely.

sorry i just assumed we werent more neoliberal then the US and UK. Guess i was wrong.

"These clauses have, however, been banned and made legally unenforceable in the United States of America and the United Kingdom. The US and UK did this in an attempt to decrease discrimination and disempowerment of employees.

In 2015, Australia’s Gender Pay Gap Bill attempted to ban pay secrecy clauses, but it was unsuccessful."