Strategy The great, big ruckmen thread

[scottywiper]

Guys,
Was at the game and Mumford looked a lot more competitive than Blake, who was very average. Mumford actually did some good things.
I reckon Blake is in real strife, Bomber said Ottens was a fortnight away...Blake has until then to lift as I reckon he'd be the one out on what I saw yesterday.

 

[Generalissimo]

Give Blake a wake-up call now by dropping him and playing Trent West. West deserves a shot in the seniors.

 

[Grey Matter]

Give Blake a wake-up call now by dropping him and playing Trent West. West deserves a shot in the seniors.

Spot On. Dry day, Blakes stats 2 kicks 1 mark and a handful of link up handballs to add to the flogging he got from Sandilands. West has to be better than that and should be given his chance now. Nothing to say Ottens couldn't play as a forward if Mumford and West were up and going?

 

[Catsace]

The only thing that is the same is the substandard performance of Blake, he's been over rated to blazers from some quarters when all he is is your stock standard tap ruckman. I've long held the view that if his old man had never played for Geelong then he wouldn't be on an AFL list. You think that is harsh, but the proof is on display every weekend. He is a liability around the ground and the majority of his so called "possessions" are just gimme handballs linking two midfielders who'd probably be better off avoiding him altogether.

Let's just get some realism here, Mummy did well against Sandilands in last years game when Blake got exposed, because he is prepared to put his body on the line, Blake has to realise that his spot is not guaranteed and that he has to work his arse off every week to prove himself.

No-one on this board can tell me that he is doing that atm.

Hard to argue with that. Geelong seriously needs Ottens back, as i reckon he will stabilise the midfield and stoppages for Geelong no end, and yes i think maybe Blake needs to perhaps have a rest in the magoos to fight his way back. I'm sure he can, but this is for sheepstations, Geelong must be at their best at the business end, with no beg pardons and favours.

 

[Roos08]

Spot On. Dry day, Blakes stats 2 kicks 1 mark and a handful of link up handballs to add to the flogging he got from Sandilands. West has to be better than that and should be given his chance now. Nothing to say Ottens couldn't play as a forward if Mumford and West were up and going?

Can't anyone remember how shocked/disappointed Bomber was when West was dropped for Mumford earlier in the season??? West is a better player than Blake and Mumford IMO and also has alot more upside than both. Not sure the blokes that matter agree (other than Bomber), that's the problem. While Blake was putrid on Saturday night Mumford wasn't much better. Let's not get carried away with all the Blake bashing cause Mumford aint any better i'm afraid. They are both very, very ordinary at the moment...

 

[fpm84]

West is a better player than Blake and Mumford IMO and also has alot more upside than both.

West was dropped following a zero possession game against Collingwood - is there anything wrong with that? I don't know how he has more upside than Mumford, who has performed extremely well this season.

Both offer more around the ground and look more capable of filling holes in the forward line/defence than Blake, I agree.

 

[Schmegg]

Can't anyone remember how shocked/disappointed Bomber was when West was dropped for Mumford earlier in the season??? West is a better player than Blake and Mumford IMO and also has alot more upside than both. Not sure the blokes that matter agree (other than Bomber), that's the problem. While Blake was putrid on Saturday night Mumford wasn't much better. Let's not get carried away with all the Blake bashing cause Mumford aint any better i'm afraid. They are both very, very ordinary at the moment...

This Blake bashing you speak of is bunkum, he is just a very average footballer who has been talked up because of his so called "cult hero" status. MOre appropriate I think is Billy Joels song "Yesterday's Hero" because I can't see how a guy with little on ball ability and a lack of heart can succeed as a No 1 or 2 ruckman in the AFL, his time has past look to the future and the future is MUM!

 

[Belisarius]

Everyone seems to believe that Ottens will stabilise the ruck situation at Geelong - and I agree. He is a good tap ruckman, works well around the ground and can go forward in a tight situation. However he may not be back - as a 2-4 week injury has just escalated to more like a 10-12 week injury. Such a long period out will require a fair bit of match fitness before we see him produce the goods in the firsts - if at all.

Geelong's rucks seemed quite good when Ottens took the first bounce and Blake came on when the second opposition ruckman came onto the ground. I am not sure Blake really can substitute for Ottens as the number 1 ruckman, given he has not the abilities Otten's has around the ground, which has become more notable as more mobile ruckman (Ryder for example) are appearing in opposition sides that are doing quite well.

What will Geelong do if Ottens does not come back is the question ? They need to start preparing now just in case the worst case scenario happens - no Ottens. I do not think Geelong supporters would be happy to be runners up again. Only a premiership will help us forget last year's loss in the GF. So, as suggested by others, this is about helping to create the ultimate success. And however unfortunate it would be for Blake to miss out on another GF - the individual's situation ultimately does not matter. The team's success and its supporters come first. If Thompson liked West so much (over Mumford and I think Mumford has done quite well given his lack of experience) and he offers more around the ground - then his elevation should be seriously considered. See if it makes any difference to Geelong's, West's and Blake's performances (if he went back the twos for a couple of games- it did Byrnes the world of good). By all reports West has been ok in the twos and has a good attitude.

Perhaps the biggest thing in Blake's favour is that Sandilands and Jolly - and similar ruckman will not being playing in the finals against him. But I am all for picking the best team regardless of the egos involved. And yes I am biased - I just have a hard time accepting a ruckman who cannot take marks around the ground. It makes the player too one dimensional. At least a mobile ruckman can keep up with his opponent and help close down their efforts around the ground.

I really hope Ottens does get back soon - but Geelong also has to look to the future given Ottens is becoming like King in his later years - more off the park than on it.

 

[Vdubs]

West was dropped following a zero possession game against Collingwood - is there anything wrong with that? I don't know how he has more upside than Mumford, who has performed extremely well this season.

Both offer more around the ground and look more capable of filling holes in the forward line/defence than Blake, I agree.

Every week, Blake gets more hitouts and stats than Mummy, as he should. Can you imagine a ruck setup of West and Mummy agst Port , Saints, Brisbane. Mummy has potential, Blake always gets monstered by Sandilands, but the giant does that to most. Now that Byrnesy has form, back to Blake bashing. Right now, Bomber would be tempted to give West a go, but in reality, 1 or 2 tackles doesn't keep Mummy ahead of Blake, and maybe Mummy back to the 2's if anyone. You can't pick him ahead of Blake on current stats even if looks better. The reality is currently he is NOT yet more effective, not yet.

 

[Tay29]

West was dropped following a zero possession game against Collingwood - is there anything wrong with that? I don't know how he has more upside than Mumford, who has performed extremely well this season.

Both offer more around the ground and look more capable of filling holes in the forward line/defence than Blake, I agree.

He was dropped by the match committee, not Bomber. Happened when they thought that Ottens was going to only be out for 1 more week. And do you really think giving a young player one game to prove themselves is a true indication of their potential?

Great to see that the argument is still going. Blake supporters always fall back on the good ol' line of "he gets a lot of hitouts" as if that's all the guy has to do. That line never really tires. Akin to denying what is blatantly obivous. No other #1 ruckman in the league has such little to do or such low expectations. Don't rant that he's not a #1 ruckmen because he's been on #1 ruck for pretty much a year now.

Blake haters want more from a ruckman than hitouts, even sacrificing a few hitouts for a much more substantial presence around the ground. Never the twain shall meet. It's the modern view and they realise that most players need to more than a one skilled "thank God I have an excellent midfield to cover my arse" player.

I can guarentee one thing. If it wasn't for the Cats midfield, no one would be backing Blake. His deficiences would be so painfully evident that this debate would have ended years ago.

 

[Belisarius]

Every week, Blake gets more hitouts and stats than Mummy, as he should. Can you imagine a ruck setup of West and Mummy agst Port , Saints, Brisbane. Mummy has potential, Blake always gets monstered by Sandilands, but the giant does that to most. Now that Byrnesy has form, back to Blake bashing. Right now, Bomber would be tempted to give West a go, but in reality, 1 or 2 tackles doesn't keep Mummy ahead of Blake, and maybe Mummy back to the 2's if anyone. You can't pick him ahead of Blake on current stats even if looks better. The reality is currently he is NOT yet more effective, not yet.

I agree it sounds scary to have Mumford and West as Geelong's ruck duo - however Blake has had enough games (70) for people to see where he is at as footballer, West (7) and Mumford (12) have not had the time in the firsts to see if they can relish the opportunity and gain from the experience.

If the finals were next week - Blake would have to get the nod - but as there is time before the real campaign begins, it might be an opportune time to see what happens if Blake was rested for a week here and there. This might make Blake hungrier and West can show us what he can do. It is very unlikely to happen - but is worthy of consideration on a thread like this.

I am so crazy for a marking ruckman I would even throw Hawkins on the ball against an opposition's second string ruckman when the heat has gone out of the game. He is only 1 cm shorter than West and 3 cms shorter than Blake and Mumford. And he was apparently a high jumper.

 

[CATACK]

Does anyone know how many CONTESTED MARKS Blake has taken in the last 2 years.

I reckon ZERO.....

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Can't anyone remember how shocked/disappointed Bomber was when West was dropped for Mumford earlier in the season??? West is a better player than Blake and Mumford IMO and also has alot more upside than both. Not sure the blokes that matter agree (other than Bomber), that's the problem. While Blake was putrid on Saturday night Mumford wasn't much better. Let's not get carried away with all the Blake bashing cause Mumford aint any better i'm afraid. They are both very, very ordinary at the moment...

This is actually completely incorrect. Completely. Mumford is much more assured with the posessions he gets. Doesnt panic. Uses better options. Not to mention his 2nd and 3rd efforts. In the ruck, he is prepared to jump into his opposing player, which on Sunday's game, made him get much less of a flogging in the ruck than Blake did. He is better below his knees, his disposal is better and he actually tackles. Blake lovers point to Blakes extra couple of posessions, yet Blake always gets much more game time than Mummy. I have been banging on about this longer than most in this forum, and honestly have come to the conclusion that the people who genuinely believe Blake is a superior player to Mummy, either are friends of Blake, are family of Blake, or know less about footy than Patrick Smith.

 

[Vdubs]

This is actually completely incorrect. Completely. Mumford is much more assured with the posessions he gets. Doesnt panic. Uses better options. Not to mention his 2nd and 3rd efforts. In the ruck, he is prepared to jump into his opposing player, which on Sunday's game, made him get much less of a flogging in the ruck than Blake did. He is better below his knees, his disposal is better and he actually tackles. Blake lovers point to Blakes extra couple of posessions, yet Blake always gets much more game time than Mummy. I have been banging on about this longer than most in this forum, and honestly have come to the conclusion that the people who genuinely believe Blake is a superior player to Mummy, either are friends of Blake, are family of Blake, or know less about footy than Patrick Smith.

Opinions are what this forum is all about, but insults like that about comparisons to Patrick Smith are below the belt. Let's hope they have to fight it out for a GF spot!

 

[SmothOperRaider]

Does anyone know how many CONTESTED MARKS Blake has taken in the last 2 years.

I reckon ZERO.....

There was one earlier this year against the Crows incorrectly unpaid. Remember saying to friends at the time that the bloke finally goes up for one and the umps shatter his confidence even further.

For the hardest team in the comp, Blake simply isn't . That Mumford chase & tackle on Sandilands the other day to get the holding the ball decision would never be replicated by Blake.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: Mark Blake

To put it bluntly, we will never win a flag with Mark Blake as the 2nd ruckman.

your 2nd ruckman will NEVER be the difference between a flag and not.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: Mark Blake

your 2nd ruckman will NEVER be the difference between a flag and not.

I'm glad a neutral supporter has come on here and rightfully pointed that out

 

[kicksome]

at least king played a half decent game in our 07 Granny, better than i expected at least.
Can't see blake doing that haha

 

[Catsmaninamerica]

Opinions are what this forum is all about, but insults like that about comparisons to Patrick Smith are below the belt. Let's hope they have to fight it out for a GF spot!

True. A little low. Sorry about that!

 

[CATACK]

There was one earlier this year against the Crows incorrectly unpaid. Remember saying to friends at the time that the bloke finally goes up for one and the umps shatter his confidence even further.

For the hardest team in the comp, Blake simply isn't . That Mumford chase & tackle on Sandilands the other day to get the holding the ball decision would never be replicated by Blake.

Contested Marks is zero, we cant have that for your current number 1 ruckmen. Blake should retire and play for Werribee ( if they would have him )

 

[Hinkley29]

Re: Mark Blake

your 2nd ruckman will NEVER be the difference between a flag and not.

As usual, Crow-mo talks sense.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: Mark Blake

your 2nd ruckman will NEVER be the difference between a flag and not.

The second string ruckman may not win you a flag but every player needs to play a role to win a flag. What happens if Ottens gets injured in the GF early on ? I am sure Geelong supporters would be heartened in such a case if they knew they had a competitive ruckman as their second stringer.

The weakest links tend to show up in big pressure games - and Geelong needs to ensure they have the best ruck combination possible. Can you imagine if Mooney or Hawkins gets injured that Blake could go down forward as a marking option ? These things have to be considered.

If Mumford or West can show they can contest well in the air and show some mobility for their size - they would certainly be a better option if Geelong needed a pinch hitter up forward. No getting away from the fact that a ruckman, first or second ruck, is a far better proposition if they are mobile, can tackle, are reasonable below their knees when required, can contest physically hard against bigger opposition and can take the occasional contested mark.

I just find it so hard to accept that a slow, non-physical ruckman who cannot take a contested mark is really worth perserving with unless there were no other options. Such a player, to justify their position in the team, would have to win an overwhelming number of hit outs to advantage against both opposition ruckman. Perhaps it might be a bit late for this season to make the change - as both Mumford and West are just too inexperienced to probably take into a finals series - but this obvious problem should have been looked at earlier and solutions going forward tried. Ottens will not always be there to make our rucks look good.

Every player counts in a GF and NEVER say NEVER - an early injury to a player could change your mind that a second ruckman does not make any difference to winning a game. Remember Flanigan in '89 - his efforts nearly helped Geelong get over the line.

 

[mac_cat]

Re: Mark Blake

The second string ruckman may not win you a flag but every player needs to play a role to win a flag. What happens if Ottens gets injured in the GF early on ?

And not even if Ottens is injured, but just when Blake is spelling him on the ground. Surely everyone remembers the 2007 Prelim final against Collingwood, where we were on top whenever Ottens was on the ground, but as soon as he went off and Blake came on, Collingwood kept coming back. In the end it was Ottens' outstanding performance (plus a handy goal from Gazza) that got us over the line. But it could so easily have turned the other way, at least in part due to Blake's exposure under pressure.

 

[Schmegg]

Re: Mark Blake

And not even if Ottens is injured, but just when Blake is spelling him on the ground. Surely everyone remembers the 2007 Prelim final against Collingwood, where we were on top whenever Ottens was on the ground, but as soon as he went off and Blake came on, Collingwood kept coming back. In the end it was Ottens' outstanding performance (plus a handy goal from Gazza) that got us over the line. But it could so easily have turned the other way, at least in part due to Blake's exposure under pressure.

The match committee made the right call then, pity they made the wrong call about a month later when they sent King packing for peanuts to St Kilda, I would think that the current 12-0 teams would be much different if Blake was backing up Gardiner instead of Gardiner backing up King.

I always thought King let injuries get to him too much once he was made captain, there were a couple of performances that didn't come out so much as courageous (i.e when he wandered off last 15 minutes semi final against Sydney, he could have just wandered into our goal square), but compared to Blake he looks like Braveheart.

Talking to a couple of older blokes associated with the club last night and the opinion is that Blake is soft, doesn't contest enough, and does nothing once the ball hits the ground.

He is a polarising figure, too many people on this thread are Blake apologists, I should know, I work with one. He keeps telling me every morning I work with him that Blake did well in games he got smashed in, he had more possies, or had more hit outs etc, etc.

He may have had a couple of games where he has outpointed his opponent, but by the by he has been very, very ordinary this year. For a ruckman who's had every chance, and rucks to the best midfield that may well have ever been seen in the history of football, he still struggles to have much impact.

He's had his time, he's not going to develop any further than what he has and there are others on our list, who are prepared to work harder to get a game than he appears to be, which is much like his 2007 GF performance, which is that of a spoiled brat who believes the club owes him a living.

 

[mac_cat]

Re: Mark Blake

Herald-Sun is picking up on this issue:

Is Mark Blake the unluckiest man in football?

Jon Anderson | June 27, 2009 12:00am

MARK Blake's CV from the past 2 1/2 years reads better than most ruckmen, yet conjecture mounts over his position at Geelong.

It's all to do with the imminent return of No. 1 ruckman Brad Ottens and the improved form of understudy Shane Mumford, plus a subtle change in the perception of ruckmen this season.

From 2001-08 most clubs, unless they had a Dean Cox, were happy to go with a "crash-bang' ruckman who could at least provide a contest and pick up the odd possession.

But the emergence of Essendon's Paddy Ryder and Carlton's Matthew Kreuzer as mobile ruckmen who win plenty of the ball has changed the focus on the role.

Suddenly Blake's ruckwork, which the club is very happy with, isn't enough.

Achieving 25 hitouts, two kicks and eight handballs a game is no longer a pass mark.

And, in Mumford, Geelong has a versatile 200cm man-mountain who can lay five or six tackles a game and even play as a tall defender or forward. Plus Trent West (198cm) has been playing very good football in the VFL.

So when Ottens returns there are no longer any guarantees that 23-year-old Blake will slip into the No. 2 role.

This is the same Blake who has played 61 of a possible 62 games for his club since the start of 2007 and one who, in the same period, has been the No. 1 ruckman in 20 of 21 victories.

The game he missed was one he didn't want to miss after the Cats opted for the experience of Steven King in the 2007 Grand Final.

King played well enough to be named in Geelong's best six, while Blake did his best to minimise the bitterness as he watched from the stands.

After the Grand Final, 200cm Blake became a natural target for rival clubs, with Richmond leading the way.

When the Tigers offer became genuine, the story goes that Blake demanded a future at Skilled Stadium.

It was a reasonable request.

As a result his main rival, then 28-year-old King, was made redundant.

Geelong provided King and Charlie Gardiner lifelines by accepting St Kilda's Round 6 draft pick (which it didn't use).

Afterwards Blake prospered, playing every game last season and averaging 20 hitouts and 10 possessions, until he stumbled on Grand Final day with just one kick and three handballs.

Experienced ruck coach Peter "Crackers" Keenan says Blake lets himself down by not winning enough contested ball.

"He doesn't get enough contested possessions, either marks or kicks. And Mumford can go forward and take a contested mark," said Keenan, who has been a long-time mentor of King.

"Blake can ruck OK but that isn't enough in itself. What happens is Geelong keeps winning which covers up inadequacies. It will be interesting to see which way they go when Ottens comes back.

"Being fair to Blake, he does get the best ruckman each week with Ottens out.


But in last year's Grand Final he was very disappointing against that Brent Renouf, who had only played eight games and hasn't been a world beater this year."

What is more certain is that one of Blake, Mumford or West is unlikely to be at the club in 2010.

The trio share the same manager (Anthony McConville) and with 29-year-old Ottens certain to play again, four into two doesn't go, unless one of them can reinvent himself in another role.

Former ruckman Gary Dempsey, who won the 1975 Brownlow Medal with Footscray, has watched Blake with interest this season.

"I rucked against his dad in Rod and found him very awkward. He could leap but Mark plays a different style," Dempsey said.

"He is more of a body ruckman without a lot of tricks. He needs to learn a few. When he goes up against a jumper like Paddy Ryder he's in trouble.

"I learnt from Polly Farmer and John Nicholls who were only around 190cm. But they had serious tricks.

"Simon Madden learnt from people like myself and Len Thompson and Paul Salmon, who was a clever ruckman at Hawthorn, learnt from Simon.

"When I see Mark Blake I see a ruckman who watches his opponent. Same with Josh Fraser at Collingwood. That is the first thing I would change. You have to keep your eyes on the ball.

"What I have seen of Mumford I have liked but he is very much in the early stages of his career. Who knows where he will end up?

"Two years ago you would have thought Blake would have had a lot of natural improvement in him but his development seems to have stalled."

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl/story/0,26576,25696412-19742,00.html