The Great Dasher Milburn

[witsend]

Chapman will and should be remembered as one of the all time greats for Geelong.
As tough as Hocking and elite skills.
When no-one else believed he did, and wasn't afraid to tell everyone.
Plus he won us a flag in 2009.

 

[AM]

There comes a point when it’s essential for team development to focus on youth. But a necessary corollary of that is to posses the depth to carry it off. Collingwood carried it off magnificently last year by making the conscious decision to use Fraser, O’Bree, Lockyer, Rocca, Anthony, Dick et al as back-ups believing that the next generation of Beams, Sidebottom, Brown, Goldsack,Toovey, Macaffer et al were the ones most likely to bring them success. Even though there was criticism of some of those choices early on. We need to test our depth by seeing which players can cut it at the next level. If we consider our next serious tilt is a few years away and it’s a choice between the likes of Dasher and the next generation of players we should follow the Collingwood example and opt for youth. And I say that as someone who has the utmost admiration for Dasher who I regard as one of our most underrated players at his best.


One of the areas we were exposed last year was in the back half where our lack of leg speed was a liability. Suggesting leg speed isn’t a factor it’s only quick ball movement that counts is to ignore how we were found out by the premiers twice in the last half of last year. In reality both are essential in the modern game.

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

True Ammo man,

The Collingwood example is very valid, but that does not necessarily translate to all other clubs. I feel it is as much about balance as anything else....you can't forget that Collingwood also recruited in Luke Ball, Darren Jolly and Leigh Brown to provide that vital senior experience that added plenty of experience to their attitude and game plan. A mix is vital.

I still think we are a strong show for the premiership next year. Can't believe that given our list of players (still in their prime) and the spread of exciting youth, plus a good mix of senior expereince, that we are no chance next year and should consign ourselves to a rebuild. Why not try to shoot for the title whilst trying to inject that bit of youth....As i said, its all about balance. I still can't find an adequate replacement for Milburns role (and please don't say Marcus Drum, because he hasn't even proved himself capable of running out in the VFL just yet!). Anyways, again, this is not about team selection, this is just about acknowleding the impact that Milburn has and will continue to have on the team and club.

 

[maxy87]

Agreed. I'm all for regeneration but Dasher is still contributing and nobody has yet made a solid claim for his spot. All the talk of the Colingwood dropping older players isn't necessarily the only model teams should use. Besides, they still had older players and the ones running around in the seconds are hacks anyway. Milburn doesn't fit that category

 

[Pure_Ownage]

No one is justifying list management on the basis of getting a player to the 300 game mark. This has never been the cause of this thread nor has it ever been mentioned to nurse Milburn through a season.

Rather it is an acknowledgment on the contributions that a 300 game player, who still rightfully deserves to be in the team on his own merit, can have to the greater club. There is no doubt in my mind that Milburn serves as an aspirational marker and inspiration to many people not only at playing level, but in all facets associated with the club. Just look at the impact that Sam Newman (despite all his short falling bone headed media persona implicates) was still actively bringing to the club up until a few years ago. You don't go through 300 games without learning a few tricks of the trade and an ability to cope with the changing rigours and tactics that will continue as football evolves. I wonder how Gary Ablett Jnr, James Kelly, Steve Johnson, Jimmy Bartel look back at the influence of Peter Riccardi or Sanderson...i'm sure that they have learnt and in Sandersons case, continue to learn first hand from having that experience associated with the club.

As it stands now, Darren Milburn is more than worthy of his place in the Senior squad, i'm yet to be convinced otherwise and he is a great example to the youth of our squad about what being a footballer entails. I haven't seen much evidence of this apparent old age slide and from that i can only base his footballing credentials on what i have seen out on the park...which is needless to say absolute consistency and class.

No one at all has ever said that Milburn deserves any favours on the selection table, whether he gets to 300 doesn't really matter, he is a club champion and we should simply acknowledge the value of having such a player within our ranks. Hopefully we can make use of this further down the track when his playing days eventually do come to an end.

Further for list management purposes - i disagree with the stagnation that senior players cause. Whilst i certainly agree that you need to rotate players through the ranks, you also need to create an atmosphere that values the processes of gaining selection through merit. It is a balancing act and you will win some and loose some as you go through the process, but to dish out games to youth based on the apparent need to be 'given a shot' does not always work....Essendon, Richmond, Melbourne and Carlton have all been very guilty of this over the past decade and look where a lack of senior experience has taken them!!!

Well given your stated desire of the OP to see him play 300 games, and the fact that you said you think he's still in the best 22 it's a fairly reasonable assumption on my part. If that's not the case then sorry for misinterepreting you.

In regards to the bolded, that's exactly the point I'm making, I agree that you shouldn't go youth for the sake of youth, but merit actually means you have to pick your best side on form and be prepared to drop players regardless of seniority or number of games played. It's obvious we were not prepared to do this in 2010 and lost the philosophy of integrity and merit in selection, resulting in taylor hunt not playing a prelim final because of a coach's incapacity to make the hard calls. I'm not suggesting giving 'anyone a shot', I'm simply suggesting that we pick the best side on form even if it means some senior guys are not in it. Whether Dasher is one of them or not will depend on his form (hopefully). I was pretty pleased with his 2010 but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out some younger players will be pushing for his spot and might take it.

I do agree with everything else you say and I love Dasher, I just see that that should have any relationship to whether he's playing or not, that has to be purely down to form and fitness, and nada else. Personally if I had to call it I think he'll slide out, but I'd love him to prove me wrong, and given I want the side picked on merit I'll be the first to back his continual selection regardless of age if his form stays up (as I did with Wojo this year).

Nice post PO, sorry for coming over the top.

I don't think it's a simple best 22 this year.
With the sub rule and our need for a hint of youth I think it's best 20 with at least 2 picks of promise ( who hold their own)

And I make Menzel and T Hunt auto 18. So It's the best 18 with 2 picks of promise for me.

Sorry, broken record on this.

Thanks mate.

Yeah probably agree that I think Menzel and THunt will become pretty permanent fixtures this year.

There comes a point when it’s essential for team development to focus on youth. But a necessary corollary of that is to posses the depth to carry it off. Collingwood carried it off magnificently last year by making the conscious decision to use Fraser, O’Bree, Lockyer, Rocca, Anthony, Dick et al as back-ups believing that the next generation of Beams, Sidebottom, Brown, Goldsack,Toovey, Macaffer et al were the ones most likely to bring them success. Even though there was criticism of some of those choices early on. We need to test our depth by seeing which players can cut it at the next level. If we consider our next serious tilt is a few years away and it’s a choice between the likes of Dasher and the next generation of players we should follow the Collingwood example and opt for youth. And I say that as someone who has the utmost admiration for Dasher who I regard as one of our most underrated players at his best.

One of the areas we were exposed last year was in the back half where our lack of leg speed was a liability. Suggesting leg speed isn’t a factor it’s only quick ball movement that counts is to ignore how we were found out by the premiers twice in the last half of last year. In reality both are essential in the modern game.

Completely agree.

I think people who don't want any changes in our back half simply didn't watch our 2010. This doesn't mean that I want Milburn out, because I don't have that strong a view on any one player, but we certainly do need to change some personnel there, it's all very well to tweak the gameplan but hard calls on team composition will have to be made as well or we'll have the same problems in 2011. I don't think we should jettison Dasher purely for youth/because he won't play in our next flag, but I do also think that we need to change the back six if you've guys like Hunt or Menzel or whatever who on form deserve to come in and will give us the pace and run that we are clearly lacking presently. I'll be watching training with a very close eye to see how Scott modifies the back six, you'd think that other than our rucks, it will be his most pressing area of concern.

True Ammo man,

The Collingwood example is very valid, but that does not necessarily translate to all other clubs. I feel it is as much about balance as anything else....you can't forget that Collingwood also recruited in Luke Ball, Darren Jolly and Leigh Brown to provide that vital senior experience that added plenty of experience to their attitude and game plan. A mix is vital.

I still think we are a strong show for the premiership next year. Can't believe that given our list of players (still in their prime) and the spread of exciting youth, plus a good mix of senior expereince, that we are no chance next year and should consign ourselves to a rebuild. Why not try to shoot for the title whilst trying to inject that bit of youth....As i said, its all about balance. I still can't find an adequate replacement for Milburns role (and please don't say Marcus Drum, because he hasn't even proved himself capable of running out in the VFL just yet!). Anyways, again, this is not about team selection, this is just about acknowleding the impact that Milburn has and will continue to have on the team and club.

I don't think that's really likely to be an issue, only guys like key defenders and ruckmen might survive for the lack of an adequate replacement (if their form doesn't otherwise warrant selection that week), a half back won't. So don't be surprised if a smaller player is chosen ahead of Milburn if his form warrants it (although I think Drum will push for selection more than people think).

As a slight segue I have no doubt this is part of the reason why Wells has recrutied versatile players like duncan, menzel, smedts, guthrie etc, while they were worth their picks in their own right, having half a dozen versatile players like that enables you to a) cover injuries well but b) pick your best 22 regardless of positional requirements because you can throw players around as needed-for example if dasher's form is down but the next one in on form is a MF, you put him in and move menzel from HF to HB, or if ditto with Ling but the next one in on form is Smedts, then you put him in and push Duncan up into the midfield, or put Smedts on a back flank and release a thunt or a mackie or similar into your midfield. I think this kind of flexibility will be really helpful for us as we retire a lot of players over a short period of time.

 

[The rabbi]

As Gaz has already suggested, a few players had excellent seasons but ordinary finishes. Hunt was far from alone in that.

That Hunt was not alone was not my point. He certainly was "not" alone. My point was that on 2010 form Dasher should be in the side before Hunt (in fact before quite a few players). The fact that he is older than Methuselah is irrelevant. He should be selected if his form warrants selection.

 

[meto]

That Hunt was not alone was not my point. He certainly was "not" alone. My point was that on 2010 form Dasher should be in the side before Hunt (in fact before quite a few players). The fact that he is older than Methuselah is irrelevant. He should be selected if his form warrants selection.

I believe THunt is going to be a midfielder not a HBF, and Milburns stats last year were among the best at the club.

I really doubt there will be anyone good enough to remove him from the best 22 even in 2011. Rotate a few through his position, yes, but to upstage the old guy, doubtful!

 

[Vdubs]

Think we all acknowledge how underrated and important Milburn has been and still may be, but PO's points are really well put.

I wonder again if Scott had been made coach before ALL the drafting and trading periods, would he have let Laidler go, who hasn't had enough opportunities with us and may have been Milburn's replacement, and would he have kept Milburn .

I recall one of Milburn's really early games against NM, where he starred as a midfielder and was superb. He really has been a versatile and unique player and still knows how to amass valuable possessions.

I also agree with Partridge that Milburn was shown up during the finals against the teams that count, as were many.Given that he wants to continue this season, we can only hope he has another season like 2010, which was very good, and that Wojo again proves his worth, as many also suggested he should not have played 2010.

 

[vinum coupe]

The problem with keeping players like Milburn is that they are so clever in game style that they will never be viewed as not good enough to fill a role in the team.

The hard questions are. (and you could use this for 4 players in the team)

If we play player XX for the next 15 games instead of Milburn, will our team be stronger come 2012?

If we play player XX for the next 15 games instead of Milburn, will it cost us a flag in 2011?

If the answer is yes and no I say it's 'almost' a no brainer.

 

[Partridge]

BTW, one of those 130 goals was when he played in the back pocket and won goal of the year (may have been play of the year)

You remember it. Darts forward on the boundary (new stand side, hovey end) and gathers the ball. Meets an opponent, backtracks. Meets another opponent (does a blind turn). drops the ball, recollects, darts to the right around another facing away from the goal and snaps over the shoulder.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Bews was NOT a back pocket his entire career. This myth continues to grow.

For at least the first half of his career, he was a rover and forward pocket - that's how he kicked that great goal against Footscray. He started playing in the back pocket for Victoria in the mid-to-late '80s, because guys like Greg Williams and Dale Weightman were ahead of him in the pecking order. I can't remember him playing back pocket for Geelong even in 1989, and in 1990 he did his knee early in the season. As his last year at Geelong was 1993 that leaves very little time to play in defense.

 

[Partridge]

And definitely, if a Geelong all time best 22 was being picked right now Darren Milburn would be a definite inclusion, no butts at all.

What about Corey Enright? As good as Milburn was between 2007-2009, Enright if anything was even better. Enright was good enough to win a Best and Fairest in a premiership year, something Milburn has never come close to.

Now, add the blokes who've made their names since then with multiple premierships, multiple AAs and B&Fs/Brownlows like Ablett, Bartel, Corey, Ling, Scarlett, Chapman, Johnson, King, Harley and Enright and I don't see any way that Milburn forces his way in. I mean, if Ian Nankervis can't make the 22...

From the recent players, I'd only seriously consider Ablett junior and Scarlett in an all-time side. Agree with earlier poster that Damian Bourke was a better ruckman than King too, he was just cruelled by injury.

 

[vinum coupe]

Interesting. Could have sworn he played in defense for brissie.
oh well.

Yes I know he was still playing through the middle as well.

 

[Partridge]

O'Rielly was a lot like Graham without the kick.
A lot of those guys struggled due to how poor we were. But I don't think he was very good.

I actually thought O'Reilly was very good. He only played in 1993 and 1994 and didn't play too many bad games for us. The minute he went back to Fremantle he was never the same player.

 

[Partridge]

Interesting. Could have sworn he played in defense for brissie.
oh well.

Yes I know he was still playing through the middle as well.

No you're spot on - for Brisbane he played in defence, just not for Geelong. But every time Victoria played he was invariably pushed there, so to most non-Geelong fans the perception was he was a back pocket.

 

[you pick one]

I believe a lot of points of view this time of year are formed based on one's expectations of the clubs succuss next September sorry October,

If you think were no hope this year you probably looking 4or5 years down the track at best to our next push for the flag
This appears to be one position and hence the push for youth and not wanting to waste 2011,and no matter how harsh it seemed it would make sense to them not have renewed Dashers or wojo's contracts,and have Moons,Otto,Ling and any one else of shaving age spend time in the two's(tank).

Then there's me I Believe we are still a huge chance this year and I would have been knocking on Darren and Davids door's contract in hand.

You need to finish top 4 to be a real chance these to blokes can help you get there,
We need to maintain some hardness in the side and both these blokes have that.

If we slip down the ladder this year my opinion becomes the first option

 

[you pick one]

Yes Darcy ended up at FB.
Was a HBF though. That's how shit we were.

And Bews AND Nankervis were originally rovers.
It could be argued Bews was a better back pocket and Nankervis was a better rover.


Not sure how we can choose between what they were best at and how they were remembered?

Partridge you must have misted this from vinum.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

From the recent players, I'd only seriously consider Ablett junior and Scarlett in an all-time side. Agree with earlier poster that Damian Bourke was a better ruckman than King too, he was just cruelled by injury.

Yeah, that's a fair call. I was more putting forward a list of players who would make the shortlist, if the team was revisited today, not saying they are all definite inclusions. I'd say guys like Corey, Chapman and Bartel would be a chance though, when it's all said and done and Selwood would be a massive chance, if he continues at his current pace. Ablett and Scarlett absolutely the only walk-up starts. With regards to Bourke/King, I'll defer to your judgment. I think King just ticks a lot of the boxes that Bourke doesn't (two B&Fs, premiership, first ruck in an AA team, more games with the club and slightly longer stint as captain). It doesn't matter in the long run though, as Polly Farmer and Sam Newman aren't getting displaced as the two rucks.

 

[Partridge]

With regards to Bourke/King, I'll defer to your judgment. I think King just ticks a lot of the boxes that Bourke doesn't (two B&Fs, premiership, first ruck in an AA team, more games with the club and slightly longer stint as captain). It doesn't matter in the long run though, as Polly Farmer and Sam Newman aren't getting displaced as the two rucks.

Yeah that's fair enough. Bourke unfortunately was too often injured. At his peak was the best ruckman I've seen play for Geelong. Dominant is not the word.

 

[LifeSpan-Void]

Yeah that's fair enough. Bourke unfortunately was too often injured. At his peak was the best ruckman I've seen play for Geelong. Dominant is not the word.

Agree with this - D. Bourke was an absolute machine when he could get himself out there in any kind of playing condition. I remember the 30-40 metre hitouts from the centre bounce were often why the ball got into Ablett snr's hands so quickly.

 

[Partridge]

Agree with this - D. Bourke was an absolute machine when he could get himself out there in any kind of playing condition. I remember the 30-40 metre hitouts from the centre bounce were often why the ball got into Ablett snr's hands so quickly.

Yep, and seemed to genuinely intimidate opposition ruckmen too. Plus he had a dirty streak.

 

[year of the cat]

Yep, and seemed to genuinely intimidate opposition ruckmen too. Plus he had a dirty streak.

On the ground and in business post football apparently.

 

[Belisarius]

Yeah that's fair enough. Bourke unfortunately was too often injured. At his peak was the best ruckman I've seen play for Geelong. Dominant is not the word.

Thanks Partridge for these words. Absolutely he was a seriously dominant ruckman when not injured and if you compare King and Bourke on their uninjured form - for me clearly Bourke was a better ruckman.

For those of you of the younger crowd - and have not seen or heard of Bourke - he was sensational. If he was playing today for us - ye ha. Best ruckman we had since Sam Newman - and we have a few good ones IMO.

Only played 102 games - but did he show a thing or two against some pretty good opposition. Also a diehard Geelong person.

I think quite a few others who saw his short and very interrupted career would agree with these sentiments.

 

[AM]

True Ammo man,

The Collingwood example is very valid, but that does not necessarily translate to all other clubs. I feel it is as much about balance as anything else....you can't forget that Collingwood also recruited in Luke Ball, Darren Jolly and Leigh Brown to provide that vital senior experience that added plenty of experience to their attitude and game plan. A mix is vital.

I still think we are a strong show for the premiership next year. Can't believe that given our list of players (still in their prime) and the spread of exciting youth,plus a good mix of senior expereince, that we are no chance next year and should consign ourselves to a rebuild. Why not try to shoot for the title whilst trying to inject that bit of youth....As i said, its all about balance. I still can't find an adequate replacement for Milburns role (and please don't say Marcus Drum, because he hasn't even proved himself capable of running out in the VFL just yet!). Anyways, again, this is not about team selection, this is just about acknowleding the impact that Milburn has and will continue to have on the team and club.

We won't know how "exciting" they are unless we expose them to the intense pressures at the elite level.

Agree the trick is to get the right balance but we shouldn't gauge ourselves against lower sides, we should do it against the best. Collingwood is now the benchmark and we should - and I'm sure we are - focusing on what they do and how they do it at the same time as developing our own stategies

 

[Gaz_Brownlow]

Well given your stated desire of the OP to see him play 300 games, and the fact that you said you think he's still in the best 22 it's a fairly reasonable assumption on my part. If that's not the case then sorry for misinterepreting you.

In regards to the bolded, that's exactly the point I'm making, I agree that you shouldn't go youth for the sake of youth, but merit actually means you have to pick your best side on form and be prepared to drop players regardless of seniority or number of games played. It's obvious we were not prepared to do this in 2010 and lost the philosophy of integrity and merit in selection, resulting in taylor hunt not playing a prelim final because of a coach's incapacity to make the hard calls. I'm not suggesting giving 'anyone a shot', I'm simply suggesting that we pick the best side on form even if it means some senior guys are not in it. Whether Dasher is one of them or not will depend on his form (hopefully). I was pretty pleased with his 2010 but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out some younger players will be pushing for his spot and might take it.

I do agree with everything else you say and I love Dasher, I just see that that should have any relationship to whether he's playing or not, that has to be purely down to form and fitness, and nada else. Personally if I had to call it I think he'll slide out, but I'd love him to prove me wrong, and given I want the side picked on merit I'll be the first to back his continual selection regardless of age if his form stays up (as I did with Wojo this year).



Thanks mate.

Yeah probably agree that I think Menzel and THunt will become pretty permanent fixtures this year.



Completely agree.

I think people who don't want any changes in our back half simply didn't watch our 2010. This doesn't mean that I want Milburn out, because I don't have that strong a view on any one player, but we certainly do need to change some personnel there, it's all very well to tweak the gameplan but hard calls on team composition will have to be made as well or we'll have the same problems in 2011. I don't think we should jettison Dasher purely for youth/because he won't play in our next flag, but I do also think that we need to change the back six if you've guys like Hunt or Menzel or whatever who on form deserve to come in and will give us the pace and run that we are clearly lacking presently. I'll be watching training with a very close eye to see how Scott modifies the back six, you'd think that other than our rucks, it will be his most pressing area of concern.



I don't think that's really likely to be an issue, only guys like key defenders and ruckmen might survive for the lack of an adequate replacement (if their form doesn't otherwise warrant selection that week), a half back won't. So don't be surprised if a smaller player is chosen ahead of Milburn if his form warrants it (although I think Drum will push for selection more than people think).

As a slight segue I have no doubt this is part of the reason why Wells has recrutied versatile players like duncan, menzel, smedts, guthrie etc, while they were worth their picks in their own right, having half a dozen versatile players like that enables you to a) cover injuries well but b) pick your best 22 regardless of positional requirements because you can throw players around as needed-for example if dasher's form is down but the next one in on form is a MF, you put him in and move menzel from HF to HB, or if ditto with Ling but the next one in on form is Smedts, then you put him in and push Duncan up into the midfield, or put Smedts on a back flank and release a thunt or a mackie or similar into your midfield. I think this kind of flexibility will be really helpful for us as we retire a lot of players over a short period of time.

Again, the stated desire of this thread was to appreciate the achievement of Darren Milburn and the exceptional value that a 300 gamer can have to a club and team. It is not saying in anyway shape of form that he should be nursed to this milestone. For the record, Dash certainly deserved his spot in the side last year and until i have seen a player worthy of replacing him on merit he stays in the team. Milburns considerable value to the team (as is the case with other veterans) however will most likely exceed his pure playing ability due to his vast experience and ability to cope with a changing game....This is not to say he should be selected on this experience, it is just a mere nod to the countless value that he has to both club and team, i think most can at least acknowledge this.

We will give youth games and we will continue to rotate players in through the team. We have done this all along through our successful period, Tom Hawkins, Travis Varcoe, Mitch Duncan, and Joel Selwood are probably the most prominent examples of consistent senior players who played right from the get-go....thats not even mentioning the Taylor Hunts, Daniel Menzels, Motlops etc etc who have been given a taste (you would probably rightfully argue that Mitch Brown and Motlop would have played consistent senior footy at some stage last year bar injury). We are actually very good at providing opportunites and for a premiership team to rotate their youth as heavily as we have is very pleasing to see. The trick is balance....we don't have to keep playing these guys at such a young age, as mentioned time and time again Jimmy Bartel, James Kelly, Steve Johnson and Gary Ablett were all in and out of the team over their first few years....but they were given opportunity. I have complete faith in our ability to develop players within the Geelong Football Club. Those who show the ability will be rewarded and we will transition players as seen fit.... However, for the moment to even mention names like Guthrie, Smedts and co is a bit premature as no-one has seen them play in a senior environment. Ditto Marcus Drum whom a lot of people seem convinced will be an adequate replacement for Dash. We just don't know yet...however what we do know is that Darren Milburn is a great player who will once again be representing our side with distinction in 2011!

 

[Vdubs]

Yep, and seemed to genuinely intimidate opposition ruckmen too. Plus he had a dirty streak.

True. Bit like his 1st cousin, also a red, also very injury prone , and also an excellent ruck on his day,when he was asked to ruck. He would have made an excellent modern day versatile ruck, just what we need and hopefully Vardy will produce.

BARRY STONEHAM, by the way.