Opinion The Hawkins Thread

[Renegade]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Thompson is an idiot.
I feel for Gamble and Lonergan who get booted into the VFL at the drop of a hat, yet Tommahack can fail week after week and get Bomber's approval because he's 'raw and has potential'. When we need him to put in a semi-decent performance he can't find the ball. I told you the Saints game was like going in a man short, and he delivered again in that sense. Bomber's faith in out of form players and hacks is going to cost us two flags in two years.

 

[Big Fozza]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Thompson is an idiot.
I feel for Gamble and Lonergan who get booted into the VFL at the drop of a hat, yet Tommahack can fail week after week and get Bomber's approval because he's 'raw and has potential'. When we need him to put in a semi-decent performance he can't find the ball. I told you the Saints game was like going in a man short, and he delivered again in that sense. Bomber's faith in out of form players and hacks is going to cost us two flags in two years.

i think bomber has earnt the right to keep hawkins in if he wants to!

edit: and it's probably a bit much to say chappy or stokesy (if thats who you're referring to) cost us the granny last year

 

[bulletproof]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Scott Gumbleton, Lachlan Hansen, Matthew Leuenberger, Mitchell Thorp and Ben Reid. These are the tall players taken in the top ten of Hawkins's draft.

Just to get some perspective on this riduculous debate around Hawkins.

 

[Copernicus]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Yes, good point. At least Tom has been able to get on the field.

I guess at this point in his career you would expect some inconsistency. He's had some great games and some very poor ones. Unfortunately, most of his poor ones have come against sides that we would expect to see in the finals. This is definitely an area that Bomber will need to work one with the young lad - give him some homework.

 

[krisholio14]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Thompson is an idiot.
I feel for Gamble and Lonergan who get booted into the VFL at the drop of a hat, yet Tommahack can fail week after week and get Bomber's approval because he's 'raw and has potential'. When we need him to put in a semi-decent performance he can't find the ball. I told you the Saints game was like going in a man short, and he delivered again in that sense. Bomber's faith in out of form players and hacks is going to cost us two flags in two years.

Exactly what is it you expect Tom Hawkins to be doing at this stage of his career?

 

[jakethesnake]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Great move by Thompson, and Hawkins should get real confidence out of this.

 

[moond0g]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Scott Gumbleton, Lachlan Hansen, Matthew Leuenberger, Mitchell Thorp and Ben Reid. These are the tall players taken in the top ten of Hawkins's draft.

Just to get some perspective on this riduculous debate around Hawkins.

very good to get a little perspective

 

[jakethesnake]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

also he is 20 years old and has played under 50 games

not everyone is like selwood

 

[Whit3y]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

TommaSpinks reminds me of another geelong great full forward, who had a zest for kicking a goal, they even look similiar and have the same bodytype, came from west coast way, karnt think of his name

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

What I see as the issue here is that next time we play the Saints - he will be playing on Max Hudghton and that will be even a tougher ask than in the game just gone. If Hawkins played like he did in that game - Geelong will have a very hard time winning a premiership this year.

It maybe great he has backed the 'kid' in but Geelong deserves to add another flag to its coffers for the efforts and success of the past 3 seasons - and I am not to sure this will happen if Hawkins plays like he did on the weekend. You cannot be a bystander in a GF. Everybody needs to play a role - and make a 100 % effort and do their bit.

All up Hawkins added 1 point to Geelong's score - not good enough as a FF of any team - but with the amount of forward 50 entries Geelong has - that is a poor effort. He may take a good defender - but in my opinion, the defender has done their job if a KF only kicks 1 behind and has no assists to their name.

I was once confident Geelong would produce the goods this year - but the forward line did not function in a big game - which is when you want to assess it. A rethink is needed and Geelong have enough big games coming up to see how it works - but the Saints have the best defence - and so that was the best test.

All this talk of SJ being out and making the difference is hypothetical. He did not make the difference last year when Geelong lost the flag - and most pundits believed that the forward line inefficiency lost that game for Geelong.

I hope Hawkins makes a difference - gets some good form - but I cannot on the form I have seen have that much confidence it will happen in such a short amount of time left. He just doesn't seem to have the attitude or skill yet to make Geelong's forward line better than last year's model.

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

If Hawkins played like he did in that game - Geelong will have a very hard time winning a premiership this year.

Belisarius, you can't be serious.

If we are relying on Hawkins (or whoever his replacement is) to win us the flag then we are up the creek.

But the fact is we are not reliant on that position, just as we are not reliant on any one player in any position to win us any game.

We did not lose on Sunday because of Hawkins.

We lost because 95% of our players weren’t switched on at the start of the game and St Kilda got a five goal head start on us. The ball hardly even entered our 50m arc during this time and the few times it did, it was kicked straight to St Kilda players. Hawkins had nothing to do with it.

We are the highest scoring team in the competition. It’s amazing that people can’t get their heads around this.

Anyway, I’m not concerned. The coaching staff seem to have the right approach here. They don’t expect Hawkins to take 10 marks and kick 3-4 goals every week, they just want him to contribute the little things and the rest of the forward line will take care of things, as they have for a long time now.

 

[geelong16]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

What about Travis Varcoe, how many average performances has he given in recent years to hold his spot through the belief of the coaching staff and the glimpses of greatness he showed. Now he is really starting to turn a corner and put some consistency into his game. Trav has been in the system a year longer than Hawkins and as a smaller player has a faster development than Hawkins.

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Just some info about how the top 4 teams get their goals...

*****************

St Kilda

1. Riewoldt - 45
2. Kosi - 35
3. Milne – 22
Total - 102

Number of players that average more than a goal a game = 4

*****************

Geelong

1. Johnson - 37
2. Mooney - 25
3. Byrnes – 21
Total – 83

Number of players that average more than a goal a game = 10

*****************

Bulldogs

1. Aker - 25
2. Johnson - 24
3. Hill – 23
Total - 72

Number of players that average more than a goal a game = 8

*****************

Collingwood

1. Anthony - 33
2. Lockyer - 21
3. Davis – 20
Total - 74

Number of players that average more than a goal a game = 7

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Scott Gumbleton, Lachlan Hansen, Matthew Leuenberger, Mitchell Thorp and Ben Reid. These are the tall players taken in the top ten of Hawkins's draft.

Just to get some perspective on this riduculous debate around Hawkins.

I'm not sure if they are the same age, but have a look at Josh Kennedy from West Coast, he is their future, and is producing similar results to Hawkins.

Not setting the world on fire, but LEARNING.

 

[RangaInTeal]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

If Tom or Cameron take a mark within 60 meters they should go back and attempt to kick the goal, 1.9 will soon turn into 7.3, get Bryan Taylor down to training as he is one of the besst analysers of technique and Geelong will be unbeatable!

 

[geelong16]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

St Kilda


Number of players that average more than a goal a game = 4

*****************

Geelong


Number of players that average more than a goal a game = 10


I would rather our stats for this, our scoring structure is much more reliable than the saints, for us there is no one forward that if shutdown will greatly affect our scoring ability, can't say the same for the saints.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Geelong did not lose the game against the Saints ONLY because we gave them a 5 goal head start. We lost because they outplayed us over the course of the game. Had we got a roll on at any stage Geelong would have overcome this deficit and still won. Teams do this every week - are behind and come back and win.

ONE of the main reasons why Geelong lost the game was that when we went inside 50 we did not have enough good forwards to capitalise on thse entries.

The same was true in the GF last year - Geelong had enough forward 50 entires to win the game but could not capitilise on them to kick a winning score. That is the job of the forward line - to kick a winning score.

What I am saying is that we did not have a good enough forward line to capitalise on an adequate number of entries to win the game.

Now Hawkins cannot be held to be the only forward not to do their job - but he was by far the biggest non-contributor in the forward line in this game. That is all I am saying. If you asked non Saint/Geelong football watchers who saw the game - who was the worst player on the field for the game ? - most would say Hawkins. I have watched a quite a few reviews of the game on TV and read some of the papers - and that is what they are saying.

Even Matthew Richardson said that Hawkins simply did not bring the ball to the ground when at least could have done this (let alone mark the ball).

FF and CHF are called KEY POSITION forwards for a reason - they are a vital key to your forward line structure. Who cares if they do not kick a bag themselves as long as they provide goal assists and make a contest - so the ball is held into the forward line to provide opportunities for other forwards to kick goals. But Hawkins can hardly be said to have done such things and therefore was beaten badly and did not make a contribution expected of a KP forward in the game.

What I am saying is that from my observation in that game he DID NOT CONTRIBUTE sufficiently to earn his spot in the team. Are others suggesting he did ? He does not read the play well, position himself well, use his body well in marking situations and does not break open packs. His attitude, his desire and his commitment to win the ball was also not up to scratch. You can have no passengers in the finals - and he was definately a passenger in this game (how else do explain Bomber putting Milburn with a bung ankle at FF and taking Hawkins from the field ?).

Perhaps he will turn the corner in the next 8 weeks - I hope for his sake and Geelong's he does. But it does not look like a likely outcome at this point in time.

It may well turn out that, as with Varcoe, he turns the corner after a series of ordinary (at best) performances. I am just not as confident as others on this thread he will in time for the finals series this year.

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I dispute that they outplayed us over the course of the game. After giving up the first 5 goals to them, we outscored them 13 goals to 9. I contend that we outplayed them after the first 15 minutes of the match.

Aside from the above, the main thing the players and coaches have said post-match is that we didn’t give our forwards good enough delivery. This is the same story as with last year’s GF. Champion Data have provided a very good analysis of this in this year’s Prospectus if you care to take a look.

I think most would agree that Hawkins did not contribute enough on Sunday, but the only relevant consideration when it all boils down, is do we have a better option? For me, the clear answer is no. Gamble should be given more games before now and the end of the season, but he’s no key forward. Lonergan has been tried and will not be the answer either.

But overall, it’s not as big an issue as you and others make out. Look at the above stats. Our forward line functions better than ANY other team’s. We should strive to improve it where possible, but sacking a player because he is struggling will not produce the results you seek. Our game plan and our setup is never going to result in any one player kicking bags of goals or dominating forward line play.

 

[darren forssman]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Thompson is an idiot.
I feel for Gamble and Lonergan who get booted into the VFL at the drop of a hat,

gamble maybe...but lonergan? he had, what, like nearly a full season to cement the position last year. watch the nab cup final and watch the ball sail through his hands ad nauseum.

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Hawkins is still demanding a good defender,

He is paying the biggest price out of anyone in the team for Cam Mooney's poor form.

As the general of our forwardline, we need Mooney up and about, playing is role to the best of his ability.

Then and only then will Hawkins begin to learn and reap the rewards.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I do not want Hawkins sacked - I just said he was not up to it on the day and cannot see him doing better next time on Max Hudghton.

I said he was a non-contributor - and so he was on the day. The things he could have done to make himself more useful - like crashing packs and contesting better in the air - getting in better, more dangerous positions - was not done by him.

He was taken from the field and replaced by an injured player - who performed better than Hawkins in that position - even though he does not have the height or body of Hawkins. That is proof that Hawkins does not know that much yet on how to play his position I would have thought.

We outplayed the Saints after quarter time in the mid-field (not overall I would contend, and just by kicking more goals does not mean you have necessarily outplayed the opposition overall. Look at the GF last year - many would argue we outplayed the Hawks but they won the game) - and that is why Geelong got back into the game. However had we had a more efficient forward line we would have won the game - if we outplayed them for the next 3 quarters. Credit where credit is due - the Saints backline badly defeated our forward line on the day.

I do agree Geelong mid-field for all its good work do not deliver all that well to the forwards - but the simple number of times they enter into the 50 is enough for a reasonable forward line to kick a winning score.

And I think people have answered their own question - was Hawkins good enough on the day ? - answer NO emphatically. To say do we have a better option is basically agreeing with my proposition that Hawkins is not up to it yet.

And that is a different question to address and others on this thread have put forward different suggestions - some I would agree with and others I am not so hot on. It is, I suppose, a very good question to ask - if you first recognise Hawkins failed dismally.

The fact that Milburn did far better at FF with a bad ankle may be food for thought when addressing this question - is there a better option ?

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

A) No, there isn't a better option

B) The Saints defended extremely well, better than the 20 year old could cope with.

C) The delivery was a class below what Roo and Kozi were given.

D) Hawkins didn't do enough when he was in the contention.

E) See A)

 

[TheYid]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I've said it once, I'll say it again: Hawkins reminds me of David Mensch, only not as good. Same looks, same kind of player, only Mensch could play a little better at the same stage of development.

Let's hope he can improve and be more like a Brownless or equivalent. I think we can all now safely say he will not be a Lockett like some have postulated.

He needs to improve, needs to start splitting packs and going hard with the use of the body. He needs to watch Mooney and do likewise.

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I do not want Hawkins sacked - I just said he was not up to it on the day and cannot see him doing better next time on Max Hudghton.

I said he was a non-contributor - and so he was on the day. The things he could have done to make himself more useful - like crashing packs and contesting better in the air - getting in better, more dangerous positions - was not done by him.

He was taken from the field and replaced by an injured player - who performed better than Hawkins in that position - even though he does not have the height or body of Hawkins. That is proof that Hawkins does not know that much yet on how to play his position I would have thought.

We outplayed the Saints after quarter time in the mid-field (not overall I would contend, and just by kicking more goals does not mean you have necessarily outplayed the opposition overall. Look at the GF last year - many would argue we outplayed the Hawks but they won the game) - and that is why Geelong got back into the game. However had we had a more efficient forward line we would have won the game - if we outplayed them for the next 3 quarters. Credit where credit is due - the Saints backline badly defeated our forward line on the day.

I do agree Geelong mid-field for all its good work do not deliver all that well to the forwards - but the simple number of times they enter into the 50 is enough for a reasonable forward line to kick a winning score.

And I think people have answered their own question - was Hawkins good enough on the day ? - answer NO emphatically. To say do we have a better option is basically agreeing with my proposition that Hawkins is not up to it yet.

And that is a different question to address and others on this thread have put forward different suggestions - some I would agree with and others I am not so hot on. It is, I suppose, a very good question to ask - if you first recognise Hawkins failed dismally.

The fact that Milburn did far better at FF with a bad ankle may be food for thought when addressing this question - is there a better option ?

I think given the highlighted statement there, I can't pursue a conversation with you further on this topic. If outscoring an opponent is not the ONLY measure of outperforming them, I don't know what is.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

A) No, there isn't a better option

B) The Saints defended extremely well, better than the 20 year old could cope with.

C) The delivery was a class below what Roo and Kozi were given.

D) Hawkins didn't do enough when he was in the contention.

E) See A)

Yes good response - well at least it made me laugh.

The delivery to the Saints forward line was better - perhaps their mid-fielders are just better at that than their Geelong counterparts. Or perhaps (in combination with) they created more space in their forward line for their forwards to use. Is this an issue for the backline and/or midfield? - maybe - but I also think it is an issue for the forwards - to read the flow of the ball coming in, to know when to lead and to find space. That is what SJ is so good at. He finds space all the time - and he sees space to kick the ball into the forward line. Perhaps he is just better at this than all of our other forwards - but he makes it look ridiculously easy sometimes.

A forward has to develop this nack - to find space and be in dangerous positions or lead to the right spot. Hawkins has not yet been able to demonstrate this as far as I am concerned. Also a good KP forward demands the ball to be delivered to them and I am sure that the ball carriers into the 50 are not that confident with delivering to Hawkins because he does not position himself well, and secondly he has yet to inspire confidence in them that he can win a contested mark.

Perhaps after all this writing the answer is as simple as 'A' - but I would like to see a few other players rotate thru the FF position. The forward line looks stagnant with Hawkins standing still and attracting defenders to the goal square.

One defintion of insanity is- Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result'. A,A,A,A....... Arrhhh !