Opinion The Hawkins Thread

[Claude Balls]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Yes, the Saints delivered better to Reiwoldt and Kozi than we did to our forwards. However, Reiwoldt and Kozi lead better than our forwards as well. They often had a 1-2metre break on their defender, whereas we always seemed to be kicking to a midget with a taller defender hot on his hammer!

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I think given the highlighted statement there, I can't pursue a conversation with you further on this topic. If outscoring an opponent is not the ONLY measure of outperforming them, I don't know what is.

Poor excuse to end the debate on. I have seen sides play better most of the day and get beaten over the last 30 years. Its like that stats are the only truth. Certainly you win games by outscoring your opposition - but the more important question is - why and how did they outscore the opposition? Why assess a game then if you win it ? Whatever you did must have worked - no need to look that hard at the tapes. Had Geelong won against the Saints would you say we have their measure - and we have no forward line issues - after all, Geelong won. Why drop players after a win then ? Because winning isn't everything - the score isn't everything. You can always improve - or at least hope to. It is not the only measure that counts - for the team and the coaching staff.

That is where I am coming from.

If a team wins by a point after 120 minutes does that mean that they had to be the better side on the day ? Give me a break. I have seen Geelong lose by kicking atrociously (like 10.21 against 14.4). The scoring shots are a probably a better indication of the dominance of a side than just the score sometimes. The better side on the day does not always win.

If you have not seen a better performing side lose in your football watching or playing days - you have not been around very long. You just need to watch a few more games and I am sure you will see it happen. Perhaps even watch the GF last year ?

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I assure you I've been around plenty long.

f a team wins by a point after 120 minutes does that mean that they had to be the better side on the day ?

If we win the GF by a point, that will be enough for me.

Looks like you have failed to understand my posts. I have said we should strive to improve (without reference to the result). What I question is how dropping Hawkins will achieve this, especially given the lack of viable alternatives and the fact that we have the highest scoring team in the competition.

I was at the GF. I've watched it several times since (sucker for punishment, I know). It's clear to me that if we are to beat the likes of St Kilda, we will need to learn to absorb pressure more effectively so we can deliver quality ball to our forwards. Weight of inside 50s means nothing if you are kicking it to the opposition or bombing it to 3-on-1s (as we did in the GF and on Sunday all-too often).

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Yup, i agree that good delivery has to start with a good lead.

We never seem to have the space in the forwardline for this style of lead - mark - lead - mark sort of play..

This is either a defect with our forwards ability to find space, a defect with the overall structure of the forwardline, or the fact that oposition teams have figured out how to defend us.

I think it is a combination of the first two points.

I still think that Mooney is out of form, and has led much better then he currently is throughout all of '07 and '08 and is struggling with his ability to consistently lead well and find the ball in '09.

Again, Hawkins may not deserve his spot at the moment, but not too sure what else we can do..

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Weight of inside 50s means nothing if you are kicking it to the opposition or bombing it to 3-on-1s (as we did in the GF and on Sunday all-too often).

I think that this is one of the main points of the other poster. With Hawkins body size and raw ability, he should be bringing those 3 on 1's to ground. At the moment he can't impose himself.

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I think that this is one of the main points of the other poster. With Hawkins body size and raw ability, he should be bringing those 3 on 1's to ground. At the moment he can't impose himself.

That is an unrealistic expectation of any player.

 

[goyoucatters]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I think that this is one of the main points of the other poster. With Hawkins body size and raw ability, he should be bringing those 3 on 1's to ground. At the moment he can't impose himself.

No forward is going to bring the ball to ground very often when outnumbered three to one. This happened several times on the weekend, and meant that one Saints defender could block Tomahawk's path to the ball, while the other two Sainters raffled the uncontested mark. Tommy could have done better, but the delivery of the football to his zone left a lot to be desired.

Riewoldt doesn't have to contend with receiving the ball this way - he leads out into space (cleared and left for him by the other Saints players), and takes marks out in front.

We are struggling to have anyone lead up like this, apart from Moons on occasions.

Tomahawk is far from flying, but I too would believe that it's got to be the right approach to persevere in the long run, along with some adjustment to how we clear the forward line to allow for players to lead into space.

 

[witsend]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Poor excuse to end the debate on. I have seen sides play better most of the day and get beaten over the last 30 years.

But have you seen a side score more than the opposition and lose?

Seriously though...I think you saw a "trickle down" effect with no SJ. He was a MASSIVE out, and I think a very crafty seed of doubt has been planted in the St Kilda camp.
The "reasons" we lost are:

5 goal start. Needs to be rectified and ultimately was the difference. In a final we must come out breathing fire for the 1st 10 at least.
No SJ...don't underestimate his role as a "spacer" in our F50. He marshalls the group, demands the ball and creates space for all the other forwards. With him in, they have to apply a lockdown defender on him, which meant on Sunday, they had much more run available.
No Ottens... with him in, there is no way Gardiner is BOG or kicks 4 goals. He would have to put time into Ottens as he has a great ability to drift down and kick goals. IMO Gardiner was the difference. He won't be in a final up against Ottens, even is Brad is running at 70-80%.
Gablett: Bomber didn't use him as a weapon anywhere near as much as he could, both in the centre or as a FF. Why show your hand and give them the ability to "practice" against him in a game that has no bearing on the standings?

I couldn't be happier with our performance other than the fact that we didn;t actually win the chocolates.
We learned that we can get through them, out muscle them in the middle, outscore them over a sustained period, and contain their 2 Key Forwards. Kossie was well held by Scarlett and I thought Taylor did well, considering the start Roo had. Holding Riewoldt to 3 goals is a win AFAIC as long as Kossie is a non-issue.

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

That is an unrealistic expectation of any player.

If you thought that i meant he should be outmarking three opposition players everytime he finds himself in a three on one, then sure, that's an unrealistic expectation on any player.

However, i don't think that for a man of Hawkins' size and agility, that it's out of the question to expect him to hit packs harder and with more result than he currently is.

Sure players like Harley and Gilbert are going to float across every now and then and cleanly mark in front of the contest, but i hardly rate that as a three on one. In these contests, no forward can have much effect.

What most supporters recognize is that Hawkins isn't expected to kick bags, but he is at least expected to throw his (substantial) weight around, something he did well in a 3 or 4 game stretch earlier this year. A stretch that resulted in a few bags for the young fellow.



Again, there is only a few calling for his head, but those of us who see him as a long term prospect are getting a little frustrated with how little impact he is having on the game.

In conclusion, strap yourselves in for some more disappointing performances from the young kid, because at this stage of his career all we can do for him is give him time in the big league, in the big games. The coaches have recognized this, so deal with it.

 

[catempire]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I knew what you meant kellykellykelly.

Put it this way, consistently kicking to 3-on-1s is never going to yield consistently positive results.

Hawkins needs to improve, we can all agree on that. But I just don't think we can undersell what the team can do for Hawkins to make life easier. SJ coming back will be part of that, improvement from our midfielders in decision making and skill execution will be another big part.

 

[footymissionary]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Hawkins MUST more AGGRESSIVE!!!

CAN YOU ALL imagine Hawkins going WILD like MAX ROOKE??

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I knew what you meant kellykellykelly.

Put it this way, consistently kicking to 3-on-1s is never going to yield consistently positive results.

Hawkins needs to improve, we can all agree on that. But I just don't think we can undersell what the team can do for Hawkins to make life easier. SJ coming back will be part of that, improvement from our midfielders in decision making and skill execution will be another big part.

Yup, agree with it all.

Lots that needs improvement. But i'm still very optimistic.. we've won how many games out of how many? and look at all the improvement to come. I think that there is just enough games left in the year for the boys to have everything up and running come September.

And would still take a fully firing St.Kilda over Hawthorn any day of the week.

 

[someday-somehow]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Yup, agree with it all.

Lots that needs improvement. But i'm still very optimistic.. we've won how many games out of how many? and look at all the improvement to come. I think that there is just enough games left in the year for the boys to have everything up and running come September.

And would still take a fully firing St.Kilda over Hawthorn any day of the week.

In the finals??? you're joking. This fear of Hawthorn is a joke. If we played them now we would kill them.
Hawthorn was the best performing team in the second half of last year and showed us up for a lack of options in the GF. Besides that they have lost the only 2 H&A games to us since the run started in early '07.

This notion that Hawthorn will always beat Geelong "when it matters" is absolute drivel and noone with a serious football brain actually believes that....what did this originate from anyway...the '89 grand final?...give me a break!.

The saints, doggies, cats and even the pies would hammer Hawthorn at the moment as they are out of form and confidence and most of their players don't look match fit. Don't fear themm....mock them. They and their stupid smarmy president do it to us.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Yup, i agree that good delivery has to start with a good lead.

We never seem to have the space in the forwardline for this style of lead - mark - lead - mark sort of play..

This is either a defect with our forwards ability to find space, a defect with the overall structure of the forwardline, or the fact that oposition teams have figured out how to defend us.

I think it is a combination of the first two points.

Again, Hawkins may not deserve his spot at the moment, but not too sure what else we can do..

I also agree with this post as a general summary of Geelong's forward line issues to be considered.

Yes I agree Catempire if Geelong won a GF by a point I would take it too. This is because that is the ultimate prize all teams are after - who cares if you were the best team on the day ? The cup can never be taken away. It does not however mean that that team was necessarily the best on the day. Unfortunately the scores may not reflect always which side was better on the day.

All the preceding rounds of the H & A are basically trying to win enough games to get into the finals and work out, given form and injuries and team structures - what will give that team the best chance of outscoring their opposition - winning the game. But it is a work in progress - as only a win the GF counts ultimately.

If you see a glaring weakness in a side, whether it wins or loses on the day, the aim of the coaching and selection staff is to look for ways to make the side a better team - one that is MORE likely to outscore its opposition next time they meet - or the team they play next round.

It may well be the Geelong coaching staff see Hawkins as their best option at FF - I would disagree on the performance I saw last game (but they are closer to the action than me - but many pundits still hold them accountable for their poor decisions in selection and tactics in last year's GF loss).

In my last posting I was addressing that winning means you are the better side on the day. That only the final points on the scoreboard are a true indication of the teams performance on the day - of what worked and what did not work re the team. So we are off topic directly relating to Hawkins - but I could not let it pass. I disagree with you - I think more can be gleaned and learned from the game than just who won and by how much. The points total is not the be and end all of a game, especially when you are striving to create a better team performance each week.

Now back to Hawkins. He is not, in my opinion, the only option Geelong has. I have cited Johnson of the Bulldogs kicking 8 on Scarlett in a game and Williams of the Hawks kicking 70 odd goals in a season at FF. These examples show that you do not have to have a huge bodied player at FF - though I it is probably a better option if both players are of equal ability.

I had high hopes for Tommy when I saw him play for a couple of years - as he has the physique to create havoc around the goals. All he would need do is kick a few himself, take a few conested marks and break open some packs. Add in a few aggressive tackles - and what an assett he would be after what Geelong has had over the last decade at FF (I am thinking of Kent here mainly).

But he has had a fair amount of time now to start to show some signs he can do these things. No one expects him to be a champion in the first 3 years of his football life in the big league. But he needs to show signs that the effort and game time he receives is MAKING A DIFFERENCE. And I am not so sure about this.

Lastly, as was said on Ch. 7 last night by Thomas - a player plays football very much to his character. It seems to me the fact that Hawkins cannot break open packs, crunch a backman, throw himself around and create a presence with a big athletic body like his - may well be indicative of his nature - what's between his ears.

AFL football is a tough sport - and a physical game. The courage shown by Bartel going back into a pack with the flight of the ball to out mark a bigger opponent says to me this guy is a goer. He will do what it takes to win. He is a real team player and proves it by putting his body on the line. This is what Hawkins needs to START doing. He will mature and gain more experience that will see him probably read the play better and how to use his body better in contested marking situations - but he needs to do something NOW. Show that no matter how bad things are going for him - he will still do the team thing and throw himself at the ball. He will persist and never stop persisting while he is on the ground to at least add some physical presence on the field that could help contribute to a Geelong scoring opportunity.

I think the Hawthorn coach Kennedy said once -'DO - DO SOMETHING'. And that's what truly disappointed me with Hawkins' last game against the Saints. He did nothing really.

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

In the finals??? you're joking. This fear of Hawthorn is a joke. If we played them now we would kill them.
Hawthorn was the best performing team in the second half of last year and showed us up for a lack of options in the GF. Besides that they have lost the only 2 H&A games to us since the run started in early '07.

This notion that Hawthorn will always beat Geelong "when it matters" is absolute drivel and noone with a serious football brain actually believes that....what did this originate from anyway...the '89 grand final?...give me a break!.

The saints, doggies, cats and even the pies would hammer Hawthorn at the moment as they are out of form and confidence and most of their players don't look match fit. Don't fear themm....mock them. They and their stupid smarmy president do it to us.

I'm sorry, i keep forgetting that forums are not for your own opinions, but for something... else....? (I'm yet to figure out what though)

So i'd rather play a fully fit and firing St.Kilda than a fully fit and firing Hawthorn... Shoot me..

 

[someday-somehow]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I'm sorry, i keep forgetting that forums are not for your own opinions, but for something... else....? (I'm yet to figure out what though)

So i'd rather play a fully fit and firing St.Kilda than a fully fit and firing Hawthorn... Shoot me..

Don't be so precious....they are all opinions...you gave yours and I gave mine, I also included some reasons why I thought your opinion was misguided.

You're welcome to do the same to me.

 

[kellykellykelly]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

I think a fully fit and firing Hawthorn are more dangerous than a fully fit and firing St.Kilda.


I don't rate opinions from posters who let their hatred for a club blindly bias their posts.

You can sit their throwing darts at the Buddy Franklin poster on your wall all you like, but this is my honest opinion. I don't believe its misguided.

 

[goyoucatters]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

In the finals??? you're joking. This fear of Hawthorn is a joke. If we played them now we would kill them.
Hawthorn was the best performing team in the second half of last year and showed us up for a lack of options in the GF. Besides that they have lost the only 2 H&A games to us since the run started in early '07.

This notion that Hawthorn will always beat Geelong "when it matters" is absolute drivel and noone with a serious football brain actually believes that....what did this originate from anyway...the '89 grand final?...give me a break!.

The saints, doggies, cats and even the pies would hammer Hawthorn at the moment as they are out of form and confidence and most of their players don't look match fit. Don't fear themm....mock them. They and their stupid smarmy president do it to us.

I posted this one month after last year's GF debacle...

Still waiting for someone to produce evidence of a 'big' game that the Cats have won against the Hawks since the '63 GF. And, no, despite the anticipation about the fixture, Round 17 this year does not count. It didn't change anything about either team's premiership hopes (apart from reinforcing the Hawks' belief that they could match it with our boys).

Finals record between the clubs since 1989 is 4-0 to the Hawks; there have also been late season losses to them that have cost us finals football.

I guess it's true to say that we have nothing to fear from Hawthorn in 2009, but that's only because they don't look as if they will contend at all. The record shows that when they do contend, we have enormous difficulty in putting them away.

In my lifetime (1971-2009), our winning percentage against the Hawks is by far our lowest - 31%.

Next worst is against the Lions (36%), obviously tested over a far shorter period (including their threepeat).

From there, it's Carltank at 41%, and onwards and upwards it goes.

The stats back the assertion that the Hawks win lots of games against the Cats, and (for me) their non-competitiveness this season is a bonus for us.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Witsend wrote -'But have you seen a side score more than the opposition and lose?'

But as I had hoped in my previous explanation it is obvious on some days the better side may score less than their opposition. It happens. If Geelong wants to win another premiership it needs to do all it can during the H&A season to get the structures and team plan right - that will allow the team the greatest chance of winning a premiership match.

So my point is that I think, on the performance I saw on Sunday, Geelong could still do more to make the outcome against a good team in the finals more likely go our way.

What can I say - I was very underwhelmed by Hawkins efforts on Sunday. Perhaps there is in some people's mind no alternative to Hawkin's but if he continues to play like he did last game - I think Geelong will have no alternative but to make a change. No one has really explained why Milburn with a bad ankle was more effective than a fully fit Hawkins at FF. Where were the 2-3 players blocking him out of the contest ?

Milburn's experience is obvious a telling factor here - but it also indicates Hawkins does not yet know where to position himself when the ball is coming in - and the need to be in front more often. The need to get to the ball dropping zone better.

The 2 most obvious skills (a forward especially needs) when a ball is coming in to the forward 50 is to know in flight where it will drop and be there, and to use your body to protect the ball drop zone so it is harder for a defender to get a spoil in - and thus allowing a forward a chance at marking the ball - and stop the opposition marking the ball (and by doing so at least cause a spillage for the smaller forwards).

It may come yet for Hawkins but until it does he needs to make a very concerted effort to use as much physicality legally to get the ball to the ground. Standing at the back, behind your opponent/s, is not a good starting place to effect this result. It is not rocket science. Put the odds in your favour - you might even get the occasional free kick if the forward plays more in front of their man consistently.

 

[geelong07]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Give the big boy a break the problem is our forward line coach ken hinkley how can we expect hawkins to think forward when he has ken teaching him.

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Give the big boy a break the problem is our forward line coach ken hinkley how can we expect hawkins to think forward when he has ken teaching him.

Seems a little left field to me. Haven't heard too much about Hinkley as a forward coach - except good things. Is there something I don't know you would like to share ?

 

[rocker_oz33]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

the second real big games hawkins has done nothing the first one V's WB he played on "lake" tommy is not ready for a defender like lake.and game 2 V's the saints played against the best defensive side going around he still needs time maybe spend time back to the two's or play him a little bit across half back to get a few touchs or little more up the ground to get early touchs then back to FF

 

[Team Chemistry]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Next pre-season just has to all be about speed and kicking at goal. If he improves in these areas he'll be quite the player. But increasing speed is quite hard to acheive so who knows what will happen to him

TC

 

[Whit3y]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

Yup, i agree that good delivery has to start with a good lead.

We never seem to have the space in the forwardline for this style of lead - mark - lead - mark sort of play..

This is either a defect with our forwards ability to find space, a defect with the overall structure of the forwardline, or the fact that oposition teams have figured out how to defend us.

agree 100%

 

[Belisarius]

Re: What now for Hawkins?

agree 100%

Make that agree 200 % !